Valid and Invalid Criticisms of the DAE
Hi,I have decided to try and put across my opinions about what constitutes valid and invalid criticisms of the DAE. These are what I think is right - I am open to changing any or all of these
I do not wish to clutter this post with details of why I think these things are valid and invalid but only briefly state that I feel a criticism is valid when there is verifiable information in the public domain which can accessed to make/face it. Pushing the debate into realms where the DAE or any other government organisation cannot answer on account of secrecy issues makes a criticism invalid - in my opinion.
I am happy to answer any questions that my readers may have about this in my comments section. Again this is just my opinion, I will defend it because I have put it up here - but I am not averse to changing it.
So here is what I think.
Valid Criticisms
1) DAE has focussed on high volume electricity generation for industry. Very little work at the DAE has focussed on rural electricity needs. India's rural agroeconomies need electric power to navigate increasing constraints from limited land and water resources.
2) DAE's projects given their sheer size have long cycle times i.e. the projects require quite a bit of investment and it takes a very long time to get from the design board to the prototype and to the final product. The India's industrial R&D needs a partner in the GoI with greater flexibility and agility.
3) In the 1998 tests, the DAE demonstrated designs that achieved 40-50kT and could be *scaled* to reach yeilds in the 150-200kT range. It is unclear if this is sufficient to meet the nation's shifting deterrence needs even within a credible minimum deterrent framework.
Invalid Criticisms
1) The DAE's efforts at developing the bomb have denied India technology vital for India's industries to be internationally competitive.
2) The DAE has not been honest about its capabilities in the bomb arena. This is harming the country's ability to frame deterrence arguments.
3) The DAE does not appreciate the need for peer review of its performance. It is operating without any checks and balances.
And yes, to prempt any questions in this regard - I am desperately trying to recover from that utterly disasterous mess that the debate on the forum has turned into.
Feel free to attack me - I am an anonymous fellow with a mouth the size of the planet Jupiter - and I have no connections to GoI - but as a citizen of India, I request you to kindly leave GoI personalities out of it. You think Mr/Mrs. big-famous-person in India has balls/noballs/toomanyballs etc... I don't want to hear it. Feel free to insult me as much as you want - I will not hold it against you - but leave big people out of it. We are all little people - lets act like it.
Democracy in India needs a vibrant debate - but please keep the debate to a level where even fools like me can follow it.
I request that you trust me - if I don't get it - then the change that the average Abdul comfortably sipping a cutting of chai alongside me at the Rambharose batata vada stall outside Vikhroli station is unlikely to get it either.
For the record - I am not for or against the Nuclear Deal with the US.
posted by maverick @ 6:30 AM
215 Comments:
Hi Mav,
Good move to start a new thread ... still, it is remarkable that 210 comments were posted ... a new high ...
btw, for DU-wallahs, 210 is a special number ... it was the DTC marvel that took you from campus to C-Sec ... now they have a metro that does it ...
that magic number and Rambharose reminds me of an old anecdote:
Bus #210 arrives at St. Stephen's Bus Stop (the stop was actually called Hindu College but that fact was easily ignored) ...
a lot of people get out all at once ...
Ramchandra Guha exclaims, "What an Exodus!" ...
Rambharose from his bread-omlette stand: "Abe saale Guha, yeh Do Sau Dus hai, Ek Sau Dus nahin"
sorry about that ....
ROTFL.Alok_N are you from stephens?
btw 210 is still running.
abhisheik
"I stand by all my previous statements on Nuclear and Missiles matters, but owing to work pressure as well as heeding to Ramana's directive on the Ban list Warning/Notification, I will not anymore respond to false and libelous statements made by my detractors."
ROTFL
Well, now I guess the storm in a teacup is truly over.
- PBDHH
Hello,
I think the Hon. Webmaster - minus the photoshopping frenzy - was trying to suggest that *higher* yeilds necessary.
The logic here appears to be that higher yeilds will maximise utilisation of scarce fissile material reserves.
A higher yeild is simply more bang for the rupee.
I remain unconvinced of the "utility" aspect of things in this regard.
It seems to me that the survivability of targets has improved dramatically. There is a lot more steel and concrete available today in our part of the world than ever before and the resources available to excavate are also increasing.
I believe Parikshit asked Alok N a question on the previous comments thread about overpressure.
I would like to take a stab at a reply. Damage to yield estimation relies on using a combination of effects of overpressure and ultra high temperature convectional currents due to the blast.
Most of the literature linking the damage to yeild of warheads comes from people like Theodore A. Postol. These guys are all big names inside the NPA pantheon.
One does not know if their claims of fatality/damage to yeild scaling laws have been independently examined in India.
Until an independent Indian study of these things emerges in the public domain, I am reluctant to endorse the claim that a higher yeild will necessarily result in a higher damage/rupee.
Another point I feel strongly about is that perhaps this
"sarvanaash" type thinking has a deeper resonance in a civilisationally abridged narrative like the US. It is easy for a population that fed self-serving egocentric rubbish in the name of a civilisational narrative to conclude that complete and utter destruction of their own civilisation is feasible and hence they can be seduced to seek a sense of safety or joy in the notion that they completely destroy others.
I don't know if you can achieve this same emotional rise in a population that submits to an Indian civilisational view. As we have a longer attention span, we ascribe a much greater longevity to things than our American counterparts. Nothing ceases to be in our point of view - it merely morphs into something else. I don't know if we can reproduce the same elements of mass hysteria needed to support the notion that made "mutually assured destruction" seem like a safe option to the American populations.
My theis - in short - is that Indians as a whole may not be gullible enough to buy into this "levelling cities" bullshit.
I feel the Americans were just barely stupid enough to buy this. After a point even they began to think and that is why soul searching of "The Day After" variety took place.
I have trouble seeing Indians buying into this logic.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
>>> I don't know if you can achieve this same emotional rise in a population that submits to an Indian civilisational view. As we have a longer attention span, we ascribe a much greater longevity to things than our American counterparts. Nothing ceases to be in our point of view - it merely morphs into something else.
This is simply making virtue of a necessity. :-)
Stop any guy/gal on any Indian street and ask him/her, if they feel secure with KT yield weapons facing the MT weapons in the hands of despotic regimes. The answer will almost certainly be in the favor of MT weapons.
India remains vulnerable to Salami slicing by aggressive "tactically brilliant" folks, who may act in concert, out of the blue, when the Indian govt. is in transition, on eastern/western borders.
Our generals like to say, "Just because we have nuclear weapons, does not mean that there is no space for conventional conflict".. If this is valid on the Western border, then why is it not valid on the Eastern border ?
Can India today deter a Chinese junta - desperate to deflect attention away from internal crises sure to come in the future - from a conventional misadventure ?
Just as a KT test secured our Western border (more or less) a MT test will bring about a fast settlement to our Eastern border.
Instead of fatuous claims about how Indian psyche is different from the MAD European psyche, game this scenario of a fissi-parous India, thats at a disadvantage in both conventional and strategic spheres against an expansionist and adventuresome China, and see what the results are.
The bottom line is, we are not Jews, we are not White, we are not rich (not yet anyway), we are not governed by a ruthless dictatorship - Hence we need explicit MT yield weapons. The Indian govt/SciCom of the day committed a great blunder by not going the whole hog in 98.
Sudeep
If you are so knowledgeable, then how come you do not take stand on the deal?
abhisheik,
guilty as charged ... on DF it is akin to being a clueless commie Babu ... I ost taste for that debate over there ... DF is populated by wannabes ...
I played a lot of bridge with Guha ... (I suppose that dates me) ... he was a great guy who had deep insights ... he did well writing about cricket ... then he delved into history with cricket as a window ... then, he got recognized at Berkeley ... that is the same as a death sentence in some circles ...
I am trying to read his book "India after Gandhi" ... let's see ...
flad to see old 210 is still running ... the only thing that beat it on the lifeline category was night bus #13 ... some of you may recall that lifesaver ...
--------------------
to the angry anonymous dude,
what is it that is ticking you off so badly? Are you a Terra Boom proponent? I will go on record as saying that I am in favor of the deal ...
now, how about you? ... so far, you have not even had the decency to reveal your DF handle ... when can we expect you to crawl out and take a stand?
alok_n dude, the comment was directed at maverick who mentions that in his post.
anonymous dude,
my comment was directed at you ...
you see, a debate works on the principle of even playing field ...
your tactic of "pot shot here, 'n' a pot shot there" is putting old farmer McDonald to shame ...
will you ever be rational enough to take a stand which coincides with your identity or would you continue to be a spoilt child personality?
pardon me, but your kind are available proverbially at "dime a dozen" but in your case it may be considered expensive ...
alok_n, I do not know what your problem. In fact, you sound very amusing to me.
This is a blog and allows people to post there comments anonymously. I posted a comment on the blog. I am not sure why you butted in with your assumptions and gratuitous advice.
Alok: Ya know, despite everyone getting all so excited about things, I'm glad yer can keep your sense of humour.
Forget the "sorry about that business. Coz yer certainly have one internet big-mouth, i.e. moi, giggling at your output.
Maverick: I dunno whether being
"moderate" now is gonna help. The damage the DF did to itself is enormous.
You know what the "steel backbone" lot and their folk are like. They smile and speak politely to *everyone*. Always. It's part of their programming or something. No ones ever excluded. But . . . they don't forget either. Ever.
I don't think there's any point in being stressed about it anymore.
ldev: Dunno if this is worth anything but FWIW: Your last couple of posts on the DF thread, before Shiv locked it, have been *widely* read.
The last time something was that widely read was 5 or 6 years back when N^3 fileted a certain Admiral for his wacko views on the LCA.
Just thought you'd like to know that.
Later,
kg.
Thanks KG,
I felt that someone had to make a stand, irrespective of the consequences....
hello sudeep,
I believe that if I stopped people on the street and simply asked them whether they would feel "safe" with 1MT nukes instead of 1kT nukes, then the answer may favour the MT option.
However the moment I chased that first question with either
- are you willing to pay x money in taxes to fund the development of an MT nuke?
or
- if India had MT nukes would you be comfortable with so-and-so being PM or RM etc...
Then the answers may favour a smaller nuke.
I think this is true in every country and the only way unequivocal public support could be drummed up for this sort of thing was by either setting aside the institutions of democracy (USSR) or - using mass hysteria (US).
In the US, decisions favouring the development and deployment of high yeild devices were taken under a cloud of fear. The prospect of *cultural* anhilation was held out to socially dominant white middle class to secure their support for keeping Megaton city killers in the US arsenal.
It is this "fear of cultural anhilation" that I feel will not work in the Indian context. Given the diversity inherent in Indian culture, we do not fear cultural shifts in the same way that other racially and civilisationally narrowed peoples did.
You are raising important points about possible "salami slicing" by the PRC. I also agree that the situation in Tibet is changing gradually but surely to a point where old ideas of security along the eastern border will not work.
However I don't see what role MT nukes will play in this situation. Thus far GoI has indicated that it does not mix up conventional and nuclear deterrence schemes to avoid getting into Pakistani style conundrums.
China has never threatened India with nuclear weapons. India has never threatened China with nuclear weapons. For all practical purposes - India and China treat each other as non-Nuclear states in bilateral affairs. The only time that the word nuclear comes into it is when China says they can't sell us something because the Americans will beat them up with MTCR/NNPT rubbish. Despite all the so called "natural" hostility between us after "1962" etc... China remains our second largest trading partner.
So in what context does one construct a nuclear conflict between India and China?
Yes I am aware that the Hon. Webmaster and some people in the media have gone around talking about ranges of Indian missiles and constantly brought up the fact that an Agni can hit x city in China and y city in Saudi Arabia - but I don't know of a single person in India who seriously talks about a nuclear war between India and China.
Please understand I am more than happy to *say* that there is "natural hostility" between India and China after "1962", just as I am happy to *say* that India and the US are "natural allies" but going beyond that is a little difficult for me.
Ofcourse, I am speaking only for myself.
I don't know why the GoI didn't test MT nukes in 1998, but that is not what we are discussing here - we are merely discussing my ideas of what is sensible in the context of MT yeilds in the Indian arsenal.
Dear Anonymous,
I like the idea of open nuclear commerce between India and the US.
I feel the dollar's instablity weakens the feasibility of such trade.
It seems like one of those good ideas that simply cannot be implemented at this time.
Consequently I am not pro/anti deal.
In general, I am too old to partake in political fashions.
Hi Kg,
I know dude... it is a complete loss.
Hon. Webmaster is going to have to sit inside the website and face censure from people like ... People who have no love for him the first place and have been waiting for a chance to tarnish his credibility.
This is the same problem I had - I did not want to put up with constant harassment from a bunch of people inside the site who did no work save sitting around and playing politics.
I don't know if he thought about all this before he chased after RaviCV's ideas.
MAV,
Even France and Germany were amongst each others biggest trading partner before WW2.Also China is using our ores and dumping here.
Also your argument that we can hold multiple narratives of culture hence we dont need megatons sounds like democrazies dont go to war with each other.
If I remember correctly you said in DF archives that leave India alone we want to develop our country with minimal footprint etc.To which KGoan replied they wont leave you alone as they only care about capability and not intent.You now posit that China and India dont plan to fight a nuke war.So essentially you are making an argument on intent.
What happens if intent changes on chinese side.we wont even have the capability to punch back or you still advocating ITBP in mufti style blowback as you did in DF?
That said I dont believe megatons would deter salami slicing.That can only be done by conventional forces.Are we even paying attention towards it?
However we might need them if China wants to dismember NE away.
Though I doubt given the political nature of their war plans(Again this is presumption of intent on my part).
Also please explain how are you saying survivability has increased dramatically?If I am not mistaken you said we would be vulnerable to 1st strike if we tested an icbm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Alok_N, Sir you are Jurassic :).I have no clue about night line though.
Also do explain that cube root thing which you claim is madarsa maths.I couldnt get it.MAV's answer seems to colured by his perceptions of NPA
Abhisheik
Abhisheik,
I feel as far as public debate is concerned - great care must be taken to ensure that non-existant intentions are not conveyed.
Sure if anyone conveys the intention to harm India in the nuclear arena via public channels - then a public riposte should be made.
If one seeks to debate hypotheticals then one must take care to ensure that one explicitly qualifies this as a hypothetical and that one does not in an excited utterance bend the boundary between reality and imagination.
It should not be that in the process of debating the future - we create the very future we want to avoid.
I do not see any public pronouncement of hostility towards China in India from any credible sources. The heated web clashes between excitable young men should in my opinion not spiral into hostilities between nations.
Yes there is a certain amount of discomfort with Chinese policies along the border and in Tibet and there are a lot of open questions over Chinese opinions of India as a global player.
On the Indian side - the number of people who understand the Chinese language and culture is limited and this is frustrating communication between us.
I wonder - again purely in my own head - if our money is better spent on building chinese language and culture information resources than in building imaginary missiles and warheads?
Should Chinese language be offered as a course of study in the CBSE/SSC syllabus? Should we be opening more Insitutes of Advanced Studies outfits that are focussed on Chinese culture? Should people on the forum be putting effort into learning the Chinese language?
I agree that it is difficult to study Chinese intentions - especially in the context of "modern china" - that peculiar space that exists in the minds of the Chinese DCH generations.
But should we be investing in public opinion trend analysis in China - as opposed to essentially empty talk about larger yeilds.
Or should I simply turn my head away from the pathetic nature of China-specific debate on the forum?
Should I ignore that people on the forum merely cut and paste the writings of a few American authors about China?
Should I simply ignore the lack of independent scholarship about China in places like the forum?
Hi Abhisheik,
A MT yeild nuke is ideal for two purposes -
1) holding out the possibility of a decapitating strike.
2) massive punitive retaliation.
However the survivability of command and control has gone up considerably. You can't expect to knock out the enemy by a single MT yeild first strike.
And I don't think the massive punitive retaliation is feasible resource wise in the Indian context.
The logic underlying both of these uses is that the MT nuke produces an extremely high temperature in the immediate geographical space in which it detonates.
Per Theodore Postol, this has two consequences,
1) an intensely hot convection current that can start
"superfires" that burn down even built up areas and
2) an intense zone of overpressure (above atmospheric pressure) that roughly drops off as a function of radial distance from ground zero.
Based on a model that connects these two effects and you can determine the size of the area obliterated by a device of a particular yeild at a particular height.
Again - this is per Postol.
>> - are you willing to pay x money in taxes to fund the development of an MT nuke?
Why would the price for development of a MT device be a lot more than the development of a MT device ? The isotopes are all the same, the scientific manpower is already amortized via the KT device, so what costs are there ? Apart from US bullying etc. But put this question differently, Are you willing to spend so much money to stand up to the US/China/Pakistan ? and the answer once again will be YES.
>> - if India had MT nukes would you be comfortable with so-and-so being PM or RM etc...
Completely irrelevant, IMO, India is a responsible nuke power, and has the necessary checks and balances to handle KT/MT nukes.
>> Given the diversity inherent in Indian culture, we do not fear cultural shifts in the same way that other racially and civilisationally narrowed peoples did.
This point of yours leaves me totally unconvinced. Using "Cultural shift" as a euphemism for a MT level disaster is mistaken. If anything, Indians understand the violent nature of of these 'cultural shifts' better than most.
>> However I don't see what role MT nukes will play in this situation. Thus far GoI has indicated that it does not mix up conventional and nuclear deterrence schemes to avoid getting into Pakistani style conundrums.
MT nukes, by their very existence will impose a limit on the behaviour of any adventurous junta. The consequences of miscalculation are so catastrophic (civilization ending) that such a course of action will not be pursued. Even if using MT nukes is not an option for India, if pushed, we can act so crazy/fundo that it imposes doubt in the minds of adversaries. On the other hand, with KT nukes...
>> China has never threatened India with nuclear weapons.
I wonder what the MRBMs in Tibet are for, or the nukes in Pakistani hands for that matter. Lastly, the very fact that these weapons are owned by the Chinese, and are mounted on missles, is an implicit threat in what you say is a "naturally hostile" environment.
>> So in what context does one construct a nuclear conflict between India and China?
In what context do you construct a nuke conflict between any two Nuke weapons states in this world ? If you can not contemplate a nuclear conflict, how about a nuclear peace ? What will be the nature of this peace, with Chinese armed to their nostrils with MT weapons and us having only KT weapons ?
You are mistaken in assuming that these weapons are war fighting weapons. They are peace keeping weapons.
sudeep
MAV,
On the Indian side - the number of people who understand the Chinese language and culture is limited and this is frustrating communication between us.
I wonder - again purely in my own head - if our money is better spent on building chinese language and culture information resources than in building imaginary missiles and warheads
are you saying that there are Chinese who are conversant with Indian culture(s)and they perfectly understand India?If not then please tell me how can our being accomodating help.It certainly has not helped with their lap dog.
I agree that it is difficult to study Chinese intentions - especially in the context of "modern china" - that peculiar space that exists in the minds of the Chinese DCH generations,
So you are saying we need to pay attention to little han emperors who are product of one child policy.Mav,what if they have actually bought into CCP's propoganda about middle kingdom and revenge(which I doubt CCP itself believed in)?Are we prepared for that confrontation? Or when it comes it will be too little too late.
there are a lot of open questions over Chinese opinions of India as a global player
Mav, given how prickly chinese are why wouldnt they repeat 1962?Indias profile is rising as it was during leadership of NAM days,why cant China attack India and grab Tawang to put India in its place so to speak?Hypothetically speaking ofcourse!
Look I agree we shouldnt buy into balancing China nonsense of US.However we must do whatever it takes to ensure they dont give us bloody nose again.For if they do, I really dont see how anybody will be able to stop India from being a camp follower of US then.If we want to mantain our independence in foreign policy dont you think deterring china from adventurism is a must?
Abhisheik
Hi Sudeep,
I agree wit you that the cost of developing a MT device is probably not much higher than developing a kT device.
However weaponising the MT yeild device may prove more challenging and maintaining the device is likely to be costly.
Both these notions of weaponising costs are of NPA origin - but then the only reason we are talking about chasing an MT device is because we are told by the very same NPA that
- the MT device has higher yeild/dollar in the *US* context
- MT device has a higher damage/yeild - but this idea is obviously model dependent.
I am not saying that India is not competent to handle the MT/kT nukes.
I am saying I have seen Indians call their PM names - accuse the PM of not having balls, not being "Hindu" enough, or being "too Hindu" etc... etc...
Ultimately the "sense" of comfort will be coloured by the their personal perceptions of the PM.
The decision to make kT nukes was not made based on a popular poll. Now you are proposing that we expand to higher yeilds based on a popular poll. This is a break with tradition and in my opinion risks exposing the nuclear calculus to swings in public sentiment. In an insular culture, public opinion trends could be managed by information control. In an open culture like India, public opinion could easily swing against the government for making such weapons.
I don't see the point in making a weapon that only makes one small segment of India feel comfortable and then spending all your time swatting people protesting the development of the weapon because the feel Soniaji, or Advaniji is not capable of being entrusted with such a grave power.
If such a decision is made - it cannot - at least as far as I see it - be exposed to public mood swings. It has to be based on a deeper understanding of India's collective psyche.
Sudeep,
MT yeilds are touted as a deterrent to people forcing cultural shifts on you. You don't want the "reds" to "overrun" your country so you develop bigger and bigger bombs to keep the "infidels" out. The Indian way of thinking is too sophisticated to fall into this trap.
I accept your argument that a MT yeild will establish a deterrent to adventurism by a misguided political leadership in an hypothetical adversary country.
AFAIK, Chinese missiles are in Qinghai - out of range of Indian cities. There are no Chinese nukes in outer Tibet. So for all practical purposes, the Chinese are not pointing nuclear weapons at us. Their higher yeild weapons are completely pointed at the US and Russia.
It is true however that with the expansion of airports and other logistical infrastructure in Tibet and rising Han migration into Lhasa and other areas, the Chinese ability to rapidly deploy a number of short range ballistic missiles into outer Tibet has increased significantly.
It does appear that the Chinese may be *inclined* to point their nuclear weapons at the Gangetic basin. This in my opinion is unacceptable from an Indian point of view.
I just don't understand how exactly having Megaton yeild devices will necessarily deter the Chinese from pointing their nuclear weapons at the Gangetic basin.
Hi Abhisheik,
I was not thinking about the Chinese point of view here. From the perspective of optimising our resource usage, it seems that we could benifit from a deeper appreciation of China - especially one outside of the framework imposed on us by the American media machine.
If the Chinese was to be ignorant about us or worse reliant on the Pakistanis to interpret for them - well then I cannot say their resource utilisation will be very efficient.
It is possible as you say that they do not view our increasing global resource demands with favour and a confrontation develops, in the public realm, there is no sense in a talk of confrontation unless something emerges from their side. Talking about fighting with them will only make it look like we started it.
I am arguing for a judicious balance of passive and aggressive behaviour.
If they really want to start a fight then we can think about it, otherwise why waste energy in going around in circles?
One should not get unnecessarily get excited.
By all means keep an eye - and learn chinese while you are at it - at least then you can understand what they are saying to each other.
>> - the MT device has higher yeild/dollar in the *US* context
In any context. The cost may be divided into a BOM (Bill of materials) cost, maintenance cost and opportunity costs.
In the Indian context, we have adequate cheap engineering/scientific man power, so the BOM cost will dominate. This BOM cost is brought down by MT weapons -(I believe the optimal range is 150-300KT actually)- since their use of the most expensive fissile material is very efficient While 7-8 kg of plutonium in a FBF design will give you 100KT, a thermo nuclear weapon can potentially give you 1MT.
>> - MT device has a higher damage/yeild - but this idea is obviously model dependent.
Damage does not linearly scale with yield, but damage/kg fissile material ratio is definitely in the favor of two stage, 150-300KT thermonuclear weapons.
>> I am saying I have seen Indians call their PM names - accuse the PM of not having balls, not being "Hindu" enough, or being "too Hindu" etc... etc...
Ultimately the "sense" of comfort will be coloured by the their personal perceptions of the PM.
The comfort levels are not being dictated by who has their finger on the button, but what decisions they are taking/not taking with regards to thermonuclear weapons. Once the decision is taken in the favor of therms, most folks would make their peace with phoolan devi having her finger on the button. (In fact I rather like the idea, imagine, in a meeting with the leaders of the Chinese junta, "mai.. Phoolan Devi, Bhen....") :-D
>> The decision to make kT nukes was not made based on a popular poll. Now you are proposing that we expand to higher yeilds based on a popular poll.
This argument is elitist. What you are saying is, that only your opinions, or those of a small subset of the Indian populace should be taken into account for these issues. The correct approach is, experts give their opinions, and then step aside while people make up their minds.
>> This is a break with tradition and in my opinion risks exposing the nuclear calculus to swings in public sentiment. In an insular culture, public opinion trends could be managed by information control. In an open culture like India, public opinion could easily swing against the government for making such weapons.
If it does, the govt. of the day must respect the wishes of the people.
>> I don't see the point in making a weapon that only makes one small segment of India feel comfortable and then spending all your time swatting people protesting the development of the weapon because the feel Soniaji, or Advaniji is not capable of being entrusted with such a grave power.
Folks from Indira Gandhi, Morarji Desai, Rajiv Gandhi, VP Singh, Chandrashekhar, Devegouda, Gujaral, Vajapayee, Man Mohan singh have had their fingers on the button at some point or the other. I have NEVER seen any protests about them being unfit to be the wielders of this power.. Only about them being more/less hawkish than some people would like. This is normal in any democracy. Even calling your PM !#@$!5 because he doesnt agree with you, that is my fundamental right and has absolutely no bearing on whether India develops MT yield weapons. I call MMS a C#$ anyway, regardless of MT or not MT, so this argument is irrelevant IMO.
>> If such a decision is made - it cannot - at least as far as I see it - be exposed to public mood swings. It has to be based on a deeper understanding of India's collective psyche.
Hath Kangan ko Aarsi kya ?
Every assertion of its status by India has been welcomed by the Indian public. The "mood swing" has been towards more hawkishness, not less, and has lasted for a few decades at least, with no sign of abating.
Sudeep
>> but then the only reason we are talking about chasing an MT device is because we are told by the very same NPA that - the MT device has higher yeild/dollar in the *US* context - MT device has a higher damage/yeild - but this idea is obviously model dependent.
Dude, science is science, whether of NPA provenance or desi origin.
>> AFAIK, Chinese missiles are in Qinghai - out of range of Indian cities. There are no Chinese nukes in outer Tibet. So for all practical purposes, the Chinese are not pointing nuclear weapons at us. Their higher yeild weapons are completely pointed at the US and Russia.
Even if I take what you say at face value, a Gun is a Gun ! It may be pointed at someone today, but tomorrow it may be pointed at me ! Sanity demands that I get a gun too for self preservation.
(You said to ABhisheik)
>> If they really want to start a fight then we can think about it, otherwise why waste energy in going around in circles?
You think they will give you time to develop these weapons if they want to smack you around ? They will hit with everything they have got. Even if such a weapon is developed post haste in the 2 weeks or so that such a conflict will last, will the political leadership have the will to wield it ? Will they believe in it ?
In the meanwhile, we loose land, NE ignites again in insurgencies, other enemies grow bolder. The result will be incalculable damage to the Indian people. These war will not be 'border wars' but will "seep" into the heartland.
We can not afford this.
A MT yield weapon combined with uncertainties of war and miscalculations will force any govt. to think a hundred times before they pick up a fight with us.
Sudeep
Sudeep,
I beg to differ, I feel the NPA resort to pseudo science i.e. they modify the science to suit their propaganda needs.
Please don't take my word for it, just see the way they "interpret" data from the Pakistani and Indian tests and see how they deliberately down play the results of the Indian tests while playing up the results of the Pakistani tests.
The NPA want to discourage the development of nuclear weapons in places like India while maintaining Western hegemony over their apparent "enormous" destructive power.
Ofcourse given that Indians suffer from an inferiority complex in technology matters - I think they find it easier to accept scientific claims from a western person - and less easy to accept scientific claims from another black arsed rice eating Indian.
It seems unwise to me that the GoI will invest in a technology solely because the NPA say so. The basic thing in science is to question things - so with that scientific approach in mind - I am questioning the validity of Dr. Postol's ideas that link the yeild of the device to the destruction.
I feel you are correct that if India attempts to build a device of higher yeild and its adversaries will move heaven and earth to stop it from gaining access to such technology or testing it. This sort of thing could happen at any time - you don't need a specific conflict to make the adversary strike you.
Ofcourse if India was not developing such a device and a potential adversary decided to kick India in the nuts because they were under the mistaken impression that India was doing something - then that sort of thing hardly favours India? right?
Potential adversaries could be induced to act unpredictably by misguided people speaking out of turn on the internet? We have seen how even the great powers can be misled in the UNSC or how even greater intelligence machineries can make costly errors of judgement in the matter of weapons of mass destruction?
Against that backdrop do you feel that uninformed commentary aggressively proposing that India is developing nuclear weapons of high yeild is necessarily in India's national interest?
Insurgency in the NE can be contained if we can move sufficient quantities of materiel to deal with the development crisis there. Moving materiel requires diesel. Can you suggest how getting a MT yeild nuclear device will help us get more diesel?
Why is the MT yeild more likely to induce the Chinese to seek out an escalation cut off? How do we know that the Chinese will back down when confronted with a MT yeild but not back down when confronted with a 150kT yeild?
What contingency plans can you concieve to deal with the situation where the Chinese put SRBMs on the Tibetan Plateau within range of the Gangetic plain?
Hi Sudeep,
How do you assert that the cost of maintenance or warhead development will not be significant? AFAIK there are no models for pricing those - certainly none in the public domain.
I cannot comment on how many kg of Pu the Indian FBF devices have or how much fissile material we will need to make an MT level yeild. The numbers you are quoting appear to be of NPA vintage - I am reluctant to accept them at face value.
I do not know what the cost of refining these materials has been in the Indian context - so I feel I cannot comment on the exact bang/rupee that the Indian devices give.
I can understand it if someone of Scicom's caliber feels comfortable commenting on this - but I lack the competency to talk about it.
I feel every Indian is not open minded as you. I have watched people claim that India's nuclear deterrent is not credible because a Muslim is president. I have watched Indians call it a "Hindu" bomb after 1998. I have watched people say that India is signing the Indo-US nuclear deal because a Christian woman and Sikh man want to sell out the country's ability to make a bigger boom.
There are all kinds of people in India. I have heard so much of this kind of talk - that I fear people like you - who leave nuclear weapons out of their political thoughts - are an oasis in the desert.
One hopes that the Government of India consults clear thinkers like you on these matters, if and when the decision is made.
Honestly speaking - I for one would feel much safer if such a decision was not exposed to the tender minds of people whose mood varies with the alleged size of Miss India's breast implants.
Now "communicating with China's citizens", that was one wall that I have been hitting my head against for some time. I hear a lot of "Han arrogance", "like Pak" etc. We need to side step all that, if we want to be an influential entity (I detest these western fads/labels of "super/duper powers") in a positive way.
It would be great if we have an opportunity to learn their language in schools as an optional one. In fact in DF, I was wondering about having more tourist visas being issued from a lot more consulates in China. And then there is this whole
"dissident intellectual" traffic, that is currently being diverted solely to the west.... Lot of minor things.
Abhisheik, all we know right now about China is what we learn from their current rulers and west. I would be a bit uneasy about these two entities. For they make a lovely yin-yang pattern in the global map. And then the fact that most of the modern Indian communication to the world is in english is not helping us wrt China's citizens inaccessibility.
Hello Hnair,
The lack of Chinese language expertise in India is startling.
There is only one institute for language studies and one institute for China studies. Apart from this there are a handful of people who actually know the language or directly interact with their Chinese peers.
Compare that with the numbers working on Pakistan.
I fear the Chinese are at a position of advantage here. As the Chinese learn their pictographic script via a phonetic base alphabet (pinyin). They are able to easily pick up Indian languages very quickly. By contrast our people are hard placed to grasp the ideographic parts of Chinese language.
In some ways Indians living abroad especially in the West are in a position of advantage. They can interact with their chinese peers - an opportunity denied to so many Indians.
In the old days on the forum some of us attempted to start a chinese language study group, but the activity never took off. By contrast the efforts at increasing urdu awareness give quicker results.
I wonder if someone could build a blog that helps people in India learn chinese. If someone did this, I would be more than happy to link it from my blog.
Having worked extensively with chinese folks, the level of arrogance and nationalism that they display is startling. Compare and contrast to India's "daleet rights activists" and "secoolarists" and the crowd of arguementative Indians, and it is clear as to which side has the advantage when it comes to articulating and pursuing national goals. In my east coast alone in 98-'03 when I was doing my Phd, there were half a dozen Chinese students working for their PHD with zero fin aid in neural networks, robotics and even laser tech - and each was funded by the PRC. In India, we have set up the parasites of the IIT who sponge off the state, run abroad and never return. The rest get into IIM to boss around others. What a farce.
Hello Sudeep,
I have a question that is bothering me currently, perhaps you can help me find an answer.
How do I distinguish between people who abuse the Prime Minister (or more generally GoI) purely because it is their democratic right to do so, and people who abuse the PM because they have narrow-minded and essentially anti-national feelings?
In the old days (which you may or many not remember) the men of the Punjab Armed Police were routinely asked to distinguish between a very very proud Sikh and a Khalistan sympathizer. After a point I felt that they could not make out the distinction and perhaps that is why the "shoot first and ask questions later" philosophy gained popularity when the sheer numbers of such people became overwhelming.
To your question for Sudeep:
Some questions for you to ponder. Why is the Prime Minister, in the system, we have in India necessarily on a higher pedestal than the average or highly informed Ram?
A PM and by extenstion the GoI, can and is usually elected by members of parliament, who in turn have been elected by less than 30% of the votes cast and an even lower percent of the voting population. To make matters worse the MP's themselves have no right to exercise their free will, which is controlled by the party whip. Now, as the icing on the cake, in this instance MMS has been appointed not elected by the party boss, who the MP's have to meekly accept, as their right to a voice has been castrated internally in the party and in parliament.
So, the question is on what basis does the PM of India hold a higher plane than others?
If the elected leader of the country is effectively not representative of the majority of the country, why should one cede ground against the words and deeds of such a PM?
Now, the question is who is to say, who is more representative of national interests, the average Ram or the opposition or the PM?
So, before you cede ground to the PM or the GoI, think, why should one?
Hi Anonymous,
If you go up to the average person on the street and accuse him of being a traitor and impotent etc... he and his friends will slit your throat.
If you expect the average Ram or Rahim or Robert to behave nicely towards you - you have to treat him with respect.
Somehow Indians who want to treat the PM of India - just like any other Indian forget this fact.
It is because they forget such things - that I feel they don't like their fellow Indians very much.
I should have clarified, my comment has nothing to do with respect, which is mutual, BTW.
I was commenting more on your theory of defering to the GoI. Why should one?
The abuses and lack of respect come due to the utter lack of democratic processes and systems and the ability to circumvent even the nominal democratic processes in place.
There is a cause and effect relationship here. To understand the effects, one has to deliberate on the causes.
When a BK type of commentator has to drop down to psy-ops out of frustration, there is a reason.
Anyways, it seems you are unwilling to reflect on the questions, in my post.
Dear Anonymous,
There is no national emergency in place nor do we have TADA applied through out the country.
People have every right to criticise the Prime Minister of India.
I just feel that the process of criticism should be kept civil.
Now I also agree with Sudeep that some people are more easily drawn towards abusive language.
My only question to him is that how do I - as a neutral observer interested in seeing a civilized debate - distinguish between people who don't know how to talk politely and people who harbour darker feelings in their hearts.
I do not see any problems with the electoral process or the parliamentary system.
But I do agree with you that some rich Indians with access to the internet are keen to vent abuse the GoI.
Despite all the education and economic security their position in society affords them, they still behave like this.
I don't approve of such people.
>>I do not see any problems with the electoral process or the parliamentary system.
Then, I would say you are woefully uneducated on the topic or are part of the league of political syncophants, who are the only ones benefitting from the current version of the parliamentary system, as practised in India.
It is not just people with internet access, how feel a need to abuse the PM. These feeling have some underlying causes and I wanted you to reflect on them.
Your reflections are now duly noted.
Hi Anonymous,
If you think I am a sycophant that is fine but I just don't understand the connection between rich Indians who abuse the GoI on the internet - and - say a suicidal debt ridden farmer in rural Andhra complaining about the GoI.
I tend to take the latter's complaints more seriously.
If the rich Indians abusing GoI on the internet were to go and help their fellow Indians instead I reckon there would be a lot less suicidally poor debt ridden farmers in Andhra complaining about the GoI.
And I certainly would not be here complaining about wasted bandwidth.
>>If you think I am a sycophant that is fine
It does not matter, what I think or what you are. I am calling your statements out.
>>but I just don't understand the connection between rich Indians who abuse the GoI on the internet - and - say a suicidal debt ridden farmer in rural Andhra complaining about the GoI.
I tend to take the latter's complaints more seriously.
We as citizens of the nation, provide our views through various means on various issues. The AP farmer probably does not have the means and skills to access the internet otherwise for sure, the farmer would be using this far more effective medium. What is your point, except to try and divide the population, just like many politicians do?
>>If the rich Indians abusing GoI on the internet were to go and help their fellow Indians instead I reckon there would be a lot less suicidally poor debt ridden farmers in Andhra complaining about the GoI
Incidentally, I have a close friend, who is Rich and did exactly what you have said. But, his methods used were to only use a balm on the surface of the skin and not work on underlying causes. He personally did great as he fulfilled his political ambitions. But, did it help to solve the underlying structural issues behind the AP deaths, centered around the Nagpur plateau/N. Andhra region - flat no. The problem was, he was more interested in fulfilling his ambitions and it is beyond his capacity to work on the some of the structural issues behind the farmer suicides. I will say no more, for he is still a personal friend.
Further, I do not know, what is your point? Is it that a person typing away, rich and/or an NRI is somehow less effective in working for the nation? How do you know, the folks on the other end you are conversing with, on what they have done for their country, in their own little ways. It may be far more than what this friend of mine did - while helping some farmers in AP!
arre anonymous bhai ...
I can not just standby and watch you insult Indians ...
that is what you are doing when you blame a "system" for India's political ills ...
you are grossly underestimating the Jugaad capability of us Indians that can fcuk with ANY system ...
The fault, dear anonymous, lies not in the parliamentary system, but in us Indians, that we are too clever by half ...
Hi Anonymous,
I don't know what you are "calling out" in my statements but the way rich Indians abuse the GoI on the internet seems to be completely random to me.
The farmers don't need to access the internet to vent their problems - their local panchayats and the ZPs convey their sentiments to the BDOs and it travels up the chain from there.
Most times I don't see any of the internet savvy Indians even quoting news reports plight of the poor in India. Most of their lashing out at GoI is confined to complaints about the "log kya kahenge" variety.
And frankly the media is no better.
If I had one friend who is doing something - I would rather spend my time helping him or her instead of sitting here and complaining about how bad GoI is.
Dear Anonymous,
Also I don't have a problem with people opposing the GoI.
They should just keep it civil.
That is all.
>>The fault, dear anonymous, lies not in the parliamentary system, but in us Indians, that we are too clever by half ...
Sure, for good men can produce some good even from a bad system but are we to wait for angels to descend from the heavens and produce some good.
Unfortunately we cannot wait for any such thing, it is these very same wretched Indians, who will have to find some structural solutions, that works for her. After all, for how long can she rely on the alien father of her constitution, Sri Morley Minto to provide her with justice?
The same womb that produces such wretches has also produced far greater number of kindred and noble souls, who have some balls in them. If these noble souls can effect a change in my life time, I will die a happy man.
A PM and by extenstion the GoI, can and is usually elected by members of parliament, who in turn have been elected by less than 30% of the votes cast and an even lower percent of the voting population.....
So, the question is on what basis does the PM of India hold a higher plane than others?
If the elected leader of the country is effectively not representative of the majority of the country, why should one cede ground against the words and deeds of such a PM?
In which democratic country do you have a voter turnout of more than 60% of the registered voters turning out to vote in a typical general election? And how many of those 60% that turn out, vote for the winning candidate, Party etc. Maybe 40%-50% depending on how many candiates, political parties are in the fray. e.g. what percentage of registered voters actually voted for the last 5 US Presidents, or the party governing the UK after the last 5 parliamentary elections or Japan or Germany?. In all of these countries, governments govern with something like 25%-30% of the actual registered voters voting for them. It is also the same in India. That is the democratic tradition.
Of course if you prefer the fascist tradition you will get a 99% turnout with a 96% winning vote for some El President such as Bashar Al Assad of Syria? With a 96% vote I am sure that the Syrian people deeply respect their President. No sir, not the measly 30% vote for him.
"
Sure, for good men can produce some good even from a bad system but are we to wait for angels to descend from the heavens and produce some good."
anonymous dude,
you ain't seen bad yet if you consider what you see to be bad ...
besides bitching non-stop, do you have any other emotion to sway us to believe that you are anything besides a spolit child?
its hilarious to see all those who keep making the discussion personal when indians in india crib, are actually not in india.
maverick, alokn and ldev - all feeding off unkil bahadur but keep cursing indians who express dissatisfaction with the current status quo. talk about hypocrisy of the n+1th order!
ldev who doesnt even vote in india is now busy being sanctimonious about fascism when its pointed out that mms is a useless puppet hoisted on india by a dynastic party of autocrats.
and maverick, you should be in politics, your spinning is something beyond believable limits - all those complaining about the current Govt are not poor debt ridden farmers so their words dont count. oh shit, somebody forgot to tell us all that all the taxes we rich indians pay and all the daily nonsense we put up with from a GOI that is absolutely BS at its job is A OK because Maverick says only suicidal farmers have the right to comment. dude, get off this blog and go to pakistan, musharraf has a job for you. "only those who have been canadian visa'ed have a right to protest, rest of you regard me as el good dictator". what a joke you folks are and yet you regard yourselves as serious?
as suspected, the spoilt child routine is all we'll ever get ...
carry on, mr. anonymous ...
Hi Anonymous,
I did not say your words don't count - I said your abusive words don't count.
Anyone can criticise the GoI - the GoI has to politely listen and figure out how best to direct resources to reduce the criticism.
That is how our democracy works.
The rich should scale their words according to their level of suffering.
For example, you are an industrialist who has just invested 600 Crore rupees in a project in Orissa. You find that local political and criminal groups are shaking you down and the police force is not doing enough to stop attacks on your factory workers. You feel that your debtors are losing patience with a non performing investment - so you appeal to GoI for relief and your appeal falls on deaf ears. By all means go ahead and abuse whoever you have to keep your factory running.
Or, let us say you are a farmer whose crop has failed and you went into debt to get your daughter's medical bills paid. You have applied to a local moneylender to secure more cash to buy food for your children and all your relatives have died in a recent communal riot. Now you go to the local DC's office and beg him for a loan and his peon physically kicks you out- under those conditions sure... feel free to should abuse at the GoI.
Or lets say you are working woman who is taking a taxi to work at a call center. You get into the taxi but instead of taking you to a call center the driver takes you to an abandoned godown and rapes you. You somehow extricate yourself and run to a police station where instead of helping you the policemen gang rape you. Now you find yourself sitting on the street wiping blood off your face from the beating the police gave you. Yes under those conditions feel free to abuse the GoI.
In all these cases you have been seriously mistreated by the GoI. Your suffering is genuine.
If you have some serious cribs like this then go ahead and abuse the GoI.
But do not take the GoI's name in vain.
The internet plays a major role in facilitating communication between the GoI and the people. However the internet is also a place where anyone can say anything without any accountability.
If a bunch rich people saturate the internet with abusive language - they only succeed in decreasing GoI's effective utilisation of this channel.
At the end of the day, if I type "traitor quisling MMS" in Google - the first hit I would like to get is from some khalistani group not from random website where some DOO is doing timepass between jobs.
It makes it harder for me to find the real troublemakers.
Also boss, remember one thing - I am apolitical. Tomorrow if Modiji or Advaniji becomes PM and people run around headless on the internet shouting "Maut ke Saudagar" etc... I will be here defending the PM. Day after tommorow Karatji becomes PM, and junta runs around shouting "Cheeni agent" or "Manchurian Candidate" etc... I will still be here defending him.
If a bunch rich people saturate the internet with abusive language - they only succeed in decreasing GoI's effective utilisation of this channel.
as if the GOI cares two hoots for this channel or any channel. all they care about = votes and then the new GOI that comes in will be the same.
Also boss, remember one thing - I am apolitical. Tomorrow if Modiji or Advaniji becomes PM and people run around headless on the internet shouting "Maut ke Saudagar" etc... I will be here defending the PM. Day after tommorow Karatji becomes PM, and junta runs around shouting "Cheeni agent" or "Manchurian Candidate" etc... I will still be here defending him.
and that is where u lose ur own credibility, anyone who defends karat and his ilk out of a sense of GOI uber alles or calls that chicom scum "karatji" needs his head examined.
Why this fascination with MT yields?
The UK arsenal is considered credible and would deter any opponent, yet it is based on ONE type of weapon: the W76 - of yield 100 kT.
A 100 kT weapon will have a blast radius of 3.1 km while a 10 MT one will have a blast radius of 15 km
100 times the yield gives only 5 times the blast radius.
The UK obviously doesn't think the enhanced fire effects of the MT device is worth the trouble of actually delivering such a weapon.
Several 100 kT weapons will do the job of city busting just fine, if their RVs are accurate.
The largest warhead variant being fielded by US or Russia is 550 kT. Majority of weapons are in fact smaller: 100 - ~300 kT. This is the French choice as well.
Only the older, inaccurate Chinese ICBMs are still equipped with MT yield weapons. The new Chinese ICBMs have warheads of modern yields.
The MT stuff is obsolete.
Delivery of a MT warhead requires a heavy, non-mobile ICBM (an SS-18 sized behemoth) that is silo bound and vulnerable to a first strike.
A modern, credible, survivable, second strike deterrent uses mobile, light ICBMs with MIRVed warheads of <300kT yield.
Dear Anonymous,
A small correction - the politicians care about votes. There is a system of checks and balances and they work to within realisitic expectations.
The net savvy rich seem to have unrealistic expectations.
Sir, if you don't want Karatji to come to power - then that is your choice.
I have indicated I am apolitical.
Dear Anonymous,
A technology demonstration to show the P5 that we can do everything they can?
A deliverable 550 kT warhead suitable for taking out hardened targets would be a far better demonstrator than any MT blast. No need to waste LiD.
But a 100-200 kT deliverable weapon would remain the mainstay of the Indian deterrent.
Dear Anonymous,
I don't want to comment on the design aspects because I don't know them.
I feel this desire among the public to have visible achievements that match the West - especially P5 weapons technology - is extremely hard to argue against.
I feel this kind of thinking is is a terrible and debilitating form of self-doubt.
From the way these people talk - one might think that if India were to carry out a 50 MT Tsar Bomba type yeild demonstration - all doubts about India's potency would be removed.
My only problem is that I know this is a lie.
Even if India does something outrageous like this - the addiction with self-doubt will persist.
>>In which democratic country do you have a voter turnout of more than 60% of the registered voters turning out to vote in a typical general election? And how many of those 60% that turn out, vote for the winning candidate, Party etc. Maybe 40%-50% depending on how many candiates, political parties are in the fray. e.g. what percentage of registered voters actually voted for the last 5 US Presidents, or the party governing the UK after the last 5 parliamentary elections or Japan or Germany?. In all of these countries, governments govern with something like 25%-30% of the actual registered voters voting for them. It is also the same in India. That is the democratic tradition.
No, it is not the same in India.
I was talking about the fragmentation of the votes "cast" and not eligible voters. UK, Japan, Germany and the US largely have a two party system. As a result most of the votes in these countries go to either one of the two parties, resulting in the elected candidate getting close to or more than 50% of the votes cast. The parliamentary system is representative only if the winning candidate can get close to this 50%. There are constituencies in India, where candidates get elected with less than 15% of the votes cast. This is due to the fragmentation of the Indian polity and the vote bank politics pursued and encouraged in/by the system.
So please do not spin, what I have said.
>> besides bitching non-stop, do you have any other emotion to sway us to believe that you are anything besides a spolit child?
Have anything constructive to add professor, beyond admonishing everyone due to your supposedly superior knowledge in Physics? Physics does not translate, easily to the real world, does it now?
Also..
>>as suspected, the spoilt child routine is all we'll ever get ...
carry on, mr. anonymous ...
All the anonymous’ are not the same bhai’s!
>>The internet plays a major role in facilitating communication between the GoI and the people. However the internet is also a place where anyone can say anything without any accountability.
Why blame just the internet. These things have been happening before, so why blame the medium. This vehicle provides new and speedy ways, just like anything else, it will get used and abused.
>>Also boss, remember one thing - I am apolitical. Tomorrow if Modiji or Advaniji becomes PM and people run around headless on the internet shouting "Maut ke Saudagar" etc... I will be here defending the PM. Day after tommorow Karatji becomes PM, and junta runs around shouting "Cheeni agent" or "Manchurian Candidate" etc... I will still be here defending him.
To each to his own. But some lessons from history are to be noted. No nation or people attained glory by being spectators. Hope your “apolitical” stance (whatever that is), is either out of ignorance or not being able to make up your mind, yet. But, not out of cowardice.
>>But a 100-200 kT deliverable weapon would remain the mainstay of the Indian deterrent.
Why the shying away from this warhead being a TN device? Apart from wasting precious fissile material in a BF type weapon, the main stay of the India delivery system should be a 2-2.5 MT payload carrying missile. The ability to configure this into MIRV or a single warhead, should be flexible. This is important to attain deterrence “on par” with the P5.
>>Even if India does something outrageous like this - the addiction with self-doubt will persist.
What is outrageous is calling the effort to attain parity as outrageous. Let us get to that stage first and then we can talk about how this addiction of self doubt still persists.
>All the anonymous’ are not the same >bhai’s!
Yes that is true but one of us is a spoiled child.
anonymous asks:
"Have anything constructive to add professor, ..."
well, let it be known that I am a good student ... phorget perfessar it ij about ishtudent onlee ...
to demaanstrate my learning of CONSTRUCTIVE things to add, here is a sample of my SUPERIOR learning abilities ... count 'em an' weep ...
1. MMS is a traitor
2. AK is a traitor
3. KS is a traitor
4. MMS licks various body parts
5. MMS lacks various body parts
(heh ... that ij bhery clevaar no?)
6. Sonia is a traitor
7. Sonia does not lick
8. Sonia gets licked
9. Parliamentary system sucks
10. Amreeka sucks
11. But Amreeki system does not suck
12. MMS sucks Amreeka
13. But Sonia does not lick Amreeka
14. Everybody sucks except anonymous
...
Dang it, I am feeling so CONSTRUCTIVE somebody deconstruct me pronto ...
Hi Anonymous,
I beg to differ - the internet is different in that it offers almost complete freedom of expression and in that views spread across the internet with fantastic speed.
I think a mechanism to check abuse may come in handy in the future - I admit I don't know what such a mechanism is.
Honestly I am only admitting my limitations. I am not very good at playing politics, so I stay clear of it. I have no problems being called a coward. I am the cowardly Hindu bania caricature that the Pakistanis paint.
With regards the MT issue, I feel it is unlikely a sense of parity will be achieved by "computer simulations" and underground testing has been shown to leave self-doubt largely intact!
Advocating an MT test in my opinion constitutes openly suggesting that India break with its PTBT commitments.
Dear sir, in my opinion - this is outrageous - India has never broken a treaty commitment it has made. We have always kept our word even when it meant enduring political and physical sacrifices.
The mere suggestion that we would ever do anything different is outrageous.
I propose instead that we seek out alternative mechanisms of dealing with self doubt.
>>Advocating an MT test in my opinion constitutes openly suggesting that India break with its PTBT commitments.
Sir, what are you talking about? The largest underground test has yielded 5 MT.
I was talking about the fragmentation of the votes "cast" and not eligible voters. UK, Japan, Germany and the US largely have a two party system. As a result most of the votes in these countries go to either one of the two parties, resulting in the elected candidate getting close to or more than 50% of the votes cast. The parliamentary system is representative only if the winning candidate can get close to this 50%.
I would suggest that you do a simple piece of googling. Type in "Japan + diet elections + votes cast" and the results will show the percentage of votes won by the winning Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) e.g. in the 2000 elections, approximately 28%. Similary if you substitute Japan and diet elections with UK and parliamentary elections, you will see that the percentage votes by the Liberals under Tony Blair in the last UK elections was about 36%.
In neither of these countries do I see the kind of hate for the position of the PM that you are calling for in India.
In the last Lok Sabha elections, the Congress got about 24% of the vote and the BJP got about 21%, with their alies their votes probably got up to the 32%-36% level. How different is this from Japan or the UK?
Let me be clear. The examples of the UK and Japan given by me above are for votes cast in those elections.
>>In neither of these countries do I see the kind of hate for the position of the PM that you are calling for in India.
No need for me to Google. I read enough outside of Google too, to know the general trends.
The introduction of major "third" parties in the UK, the liberal democrats is new compared to the Indian experience.
You should look at some of the traidtional percentage of votes in the UK for the two dominant parties.
As for Japan, ignoring the sheer domiance of the LDP until recent years will make a mockery of any respectful study of constitutional history.
You should also compare what the Congress party used to traditionally get, when it was THE dominant party. Nothing close to the other dominant parties in Japan and the UK. Wait for a few years more, if current splintering trends continue in the UK. India's first-past-the-post system was splinetered from the get go in 1952. You can check the facts in whatever source you desire.
There is an underlying reason for this. It is rooted in the geo-political difference between states the size of the UK and Japan Vs. India and the sheer diversity in India.
If you read through the political discourses, there are enough complaints even in Queendom on the first-past-the-post system, due to this recent splintering of the votes, due to the rise of new parties.
On the increase in percentages due to the alliance votes....it is laughable to suggest such a thing, if you know fully well, on how the Congress party formed this government. Allies fight polls together not in opposition to each other. e.g: Congress and the Left.
My charge is the PM is not representative of the nation not only based on the splintered votes in our systems but also due to these unholy (after the fact) alliances, the lack of party democracy, the lack of parliamentary democracy due to party whips, the fact that the PM is not even a member of the Lok Sabha and as an appointed figure of a party boss.....MMS is indeed the weakest PM in the history of the nation.
This is not hate simply a view of the facts and Please no more spinning now.
Anonymous,
Splintering of the votes in India is an area of concern. But until an alternative system is agreed upon, the first past the post is the best. If you havent thought about it, let me tell you that a proportional system will only increase the splintering in India, with no government possible at all.
As far as fighting elections as an alliance as opposed to forming alliances after the fact, I think it is a question of sour grapes by BJP supporters, who feel that those 3% incremental votes cost them the election. If the tables had been turned, maybe the Congress may have behaved similarly. Who knows?
"...MMS is indeed the weakest PM in the history of the nation."
There are various ways to measure "strength" ... to wit:
1. The Congress party as the leading member of the coalition in power has the fewest seats ever historically for a "ruling" party (is this actually accurate?)
2. The serving PM is not the unquestioned leader of the coalition in power (this is very much true).
3. The serving PM is not the unquestioned leader of his own party (again true).
Now, which of the points above is a "flaw" in the system? ... given the nature of Indian diversity and political paucity, this could very well be the natural position of equilibrium ... if so, what is the point of complaining about a system that has successfully found its ground state and stability?
If folks are extolling the virtues of democracy then pray why, in the same breath, also lament the absence of a heavy-handed ruler?
Was the system designed to produce Mrs. G or MMS type of leader? ... my analysis is that Mrs. G type of person was possible before the political awakening of certain sections of the population ... hence, I don't understand exactly what the folks are complaining about MMS ... my guess is that the complaints are really about Sonia ...
I suspect that if folks spend more energy and bandwidth analyzing why Indians vote for Sonia, they'd be in a better position to understand why MMS acts the way he does ... no, it is not about 15% or 15% or 55% ... it is about why she has emerged on the scene ...
there is absolutely nothing wrong with "politics of caste" ... in a *representative* democracy, it doesn't matter which label you choose to represent yourself ...
now that Laloo, Mayawati et al have arrived on the scene, there is no way to put the genie back in the bottle ... there will be more MMS type PMs in the future ...
the Q I have is this: what does the Indian voting pattern along caste lines say about Indian education system?
[and no, MMS has nothing to do with it ... folks voting today received their primary education a long time ago]
what do folks think would have happened if there were Laloos and Mayawatis in Mrs. G's days?
finally, one more thing ...
I find it ironic that folks who complain about the "weakness" of the PM are busy undermining that same PM ... surely, I am a doubting tom and they have a grand strategy of *constructively" restoring strength to the PM ... :)
Now, which of the points above is a "flaw" in the system? ... given the nature of Indian diversity and political paucity, this could very well be the natural position of equilibrium ... if so, what is the point of complaining about a [b]system that has successfully found its ground state and stability?[/b]
Are you fricking kidding me? Do you have any clue about the state of governance in India, its diagnosis and prognosis by people, who have spent a life time deliberating these affairs?
>>there is absolutely nothing wrong with "politics of caste" ... in a *representative* democracy, it doesn't matter which label you choose to represent yourself ...
Sure, go ahead and define yourself as a class that likes to jump of a cliff, except for the fact that in these labels and fragmentation lies the disunity of the nation. Unity is not something that is self manifest. Even if inherently present, it has to be nurtured. If caste is a valid form of segmentation and representation, then why not religion. Now, are you about to say partition was a good thing and also minority rights are a good thing.....where does it end?
This concept of Janta is Janaardhan or Panch Parmeshwar or romanticizing and legitimizing laloo raj in the name of people power has to stop. Never have these types, gotten a majority of the votes cast, forget about eligible votes and the result is utter misgovernance in entire regions of the country and its peoples and the country, who ultimately suffer. There is a reason, why the Biharis and UP wallahs flock to Mumbai, Punajb and Gujrat and not the othe way around.
>>Was the system designed to produce Mrs. G or MMS type of leader? ... my analysis is that Mrs. G type of person was possible before the political awakening of certain sections of the population ...
It is a myth to believe that personalities alone drive the type of leadership. Operating rules of the game also play a role. The fact of the matter is the PM as the head of the executive, along with the party boss (if not one)controls the legislature and the MP's do not have ANY independence to act on their own judgment. Their democratic right has been snatched from them. Democracy does not end at the polling booth.
>>now that Laloo, Mayawati et al have arrived on the scene, there is no way to put the genie back in the bottle ... there will be more MMS type PMs in the future ...
If so, the destruction of the nation is guaranteed. What we will get is legions of under performing regions and a fragmented polity, who is more concerned about "rights mongering" than the well being of the nation.
>>I find it ironic that folks who complain about the "weakness" of the PM are busy undermining that same PM ... surely, I am a doubting tom and they have a grand strategy of *constructively" restoring strength to the PM ... :)
There is and the message is in the separation of the executive from the legislature at federal and state levels. Along with strengthening of local governance.
>>the Q I have is this: what does the Indian voting pattern along caste lines say about Indian education system?
That our earlier leaders messed up. But, it does not mean Indians ought to be eternally dammned or enslaved. The charge that the system is messed up does not mean that parliamentary system is messed up but it is what we have made of this system at hand and hence the need to change.
>>I suspect that if folks spend more energy and bandwidth analyzing why Indians vote for Sonia, they'd be in a better position to understand why MMS acts the way he does ... no, it is not about 15% or 15% or 55% ... it is about why she has emerged on the scene ...
Finally a good question on which some research does exist. Read up on BK Nehru's works on the matter and what he recommends for the Indian situation also read up works by Manucur Olson's, Power and Prosperity, which is not India specific but dwells on voting patterns of people in general.
>>Anonymous,
Splintering of the votes in India is an area of concern. But until an alternative system is agreed upon, the first past the post is the best. If you havent thought about it, let me tell you that a proportional system will only increase the splintering in India, with no government possible at all.
How many works and by whom can you cite on the matter of alternative systems in India?
>>As far as fighting elections as an alliance as opposed to forming alliances after the fact, I think it is a question of sour grapes by BJP supporters, who feel that those 3% incremental votes cost them the election. If the tables had been turned, maybe the Congress may have behaved similarly. Who knows?
Sure no one knows, except for one little fact that the NDA fought their elections on a common manifesto and the major alliances were set before the elections!
Stop spinning now!
Dear Anonymous,
In 1998 DAE indicated it can't be done at Pokharan.
Also 1998 demonstrates that some idiot wearing a suit on NDTV can question the yeild achieved in an underground tests.
The self-doubt is rooted in the inability to stomach idiots in suits on NDTV mouthing shit about India.
I feel such self-doubt and penis envy of the West - will lead to Pakistani style strategy.
"Are you fricking kidding me? Do you have any clue about the state of governance in India, its diagnosis and prognosis by people, who have spent a life time deliberating these affairs?"
I wasn't "fricking kidding" you ... but I may as well have ...
the rest of your post is another spoilt child nautanki ...
you need kidding and entertainment because you are confusing your personal peeves with debating points ... you are having some difficulty differentiating between *your* value system and a representative democracy ...
it is hard to discuss with someone who assumes that he is correct *by definition* ... :)
[also why all this hayaa/sharm regarding revealing your DF handle?]
>>[also why all this hayaa/sharm regarding revealing your DF handle?]
diamond boy, why all the haya sharm in not using your real name?
u seem to be the typical academic monkey willing to use barbs but run off when challenged
arre bhai,
I can understand your reluctance ... you are probably someone who has already been discredited once on DF so you are trying again as anonymous ...
all of this silliness/nautanki is quite useless ... this website is a nice corner for grown-ups to play ... why not just find a sandbox somewhere and chill?
now, if I say I have had enough of you, the monkey routine will consist of chanting "running when challenged" ...
ROFL!
>>you are having some difficulty differentiating between *your* value system and a representative democracy ...
it is hard to discuss with someone who assumes that he is correct *by definition* ... :)
Bring in some real counter points, beyond putting up the act of the all knowing professor, admonishing children for being naughty!
Ever read the constitutional debates on the issue of reservations, from the very inception of the republic?
How many opinions have you read on the issue of reforms needed or not needed in our system? Who can you cite to defend your view? Since you accuse me of confusing my personal values with the issue concerned, let us hear it from you, name me Indian commentators on the issue, who you respect, who defend the current system?
Easiest thing in the world to accuse others, when losing a debate.
>>[also why all this hayaa/sharm regarding revealing your DF handle?]
In good time professor, in good time. Why the hurry and why does it matter....FWIW: Still going strong on the forum.
Also, again, not all anonymous' posting are the same.
>>In 1998 DAE indicated it can't be done at Pokharan.
Khetolai? A few villages or an island is an acceptable sacrifice, don't you think?
In the worst possible scenario, do not really need a full yield test, just a scalable one - done enough times!
"Bring in some real counter points ..."
ok, here goes:
Point == MMS sucks
Counter-point == No, he don't.
"In good time professor, in good time. Why the hurry and why does it matter..."
it matters because I don't want to deal with the same problem twice ... there were a lot of baiters on DF who had nothing better to do ... your tone is familiar ...
now I will "run away" because you challenged me ... congratulations!
:)
To the anonymous who thinks govt is not representative:
"The introduction of major "third" parties in the UK, the liberal democrats is new compared to the Indian experience.
You should look at some of the traidtional percentage of votes in the UK for the two dominant parties."
I think you are wrong here. Britain in the 19th century (and for that matter earlier) had a pretty fragmented polity (and parliament). This fragmentation also coincided with its greatest days of power. Of course you will argue that govt there in those days was not really democratic.
As far as India goes, I much prefer things these days where the govt has lesser power in parliament and is forced to compromise and be sensitive to its opposition, both of the loyal and disloyal persuasion. There were tremendous excesses when the country was run by one party at the center, both in constitutional and other terms. There was also no incentive for the govt in power to change policies or consider the interests of many people. I think much as you may abuse the Mayawatis and Laloo prasad yadavs of this world, the fact that they and the people they represent have some power today is a good thing, and in the long term necessary for a stable country. Yes, they are corrupt and often poor at governance, but they are not much different from the people they replaced, and at least have the merit that they represent previously marginalized groups in society. The problems with governance in India have as much to do with the power and influence to intrude that government has over people's daily lives as with the people who run it. If we have more composite parliaments, this means that these powers of govt are somewhat diluted, which is in my view a good thing.
And also, incidentally, MT yield weapons are not going to drive down food prices, or make people less hungry. What is the use of fancy nuclear weapons when we are economically still relatively weak? Especially when we have enough nukes already to retaliate against our enemies, and sate even the most bloodthirsty among us if necessary.
Anonymous,
How many works and by whom can you cite on the matter of alternative systems in India?
If you feel so strongly about it, why dont you suggest a system, instead of criticizing the present system. And good luck at trying to get it accepted and implemented.
Sure no one knows, except for one little fact that the NDA fought their elections on a common manifesto and the major alliances were set before the elections!
And inspite of all that, they lost. What does that say about the judgment of the people of India on their performance?. The constitution is simple; The President of India has to call on the leader of the largest party to form a government in the event that no single party gets an absolute majority. The constitution does not say that the President has to call on the leader of the largest alliance to form a government does it? The Congress Party has played by rules as set in the constitution. If the NDA is unhappy about it, they should change the constitution after they have mustered the majority (2/3 or 3/4) to have the constitution changed. All other grumbling IMO is a case of sour grapes.
For Faizi:
On the comaprision to the UK, one has to really understand the history and evolution of parliaments in the context of the history of the UK and parliaments' battle for power with the monarch and other vested interests. Then, answer the question, did the Indian republic share the same geo-political characteristics or even a similar type of history to automatically qualify the parliamentary model, as practised in the UK, as the most appropriate for India.
As far as the Indian system goes, there is something akin to the original sin. When a body that has a historic chance to frame the nation's future sits in deliberation and ends up with 80% of the laws being a copy of what the British masters wrote, when they fail to act bravely enough and do not trust their own populace and leaders, to end up with the biggest constitution in the world, the result is ending up justifying the rule of the likes of Laloo. There are two sides to every coin, many a times, our past leaders have been led by fear and not chosen the side, which represents hope.
For every Laloo or Mayawati there is a Modi or a Naidu. It does not necessarily have to be divisive and vote bank oriented.
On MT level nukes et al - A nation such as India has to prepare for "any" unforeseen eventuality. Cannot do that with the measly 2.75% like defense spending with two nuclear neighbors, both sitting with our territory. The alternative to a strong self reliant India does exist, it is popularly known as GUBO.
You should read up on works by many an Indian author on their views on what India needs for deterrence. There is a wide range of views and yours unfortunately does have some subscribers. Heck there are some who even today, do not want India to wield ANY nuclear weapons.
On your comparision of MT level nukes to food prices, sheer nonsense to comment on.
This anonymous is a sore loser Bajrangi type. He is a Modi-Bhakt who is all fucked up because non-Hindus are running India. The rage in the head of these Bajrangi types is best expressed when they burn things. Typing is not their strength.
No way this guy is a bajrangi idiot. He is well educated and is talking sense. All the psec types can't handle a true hindu expert. Go anonymous!
How now brown cow!
Bhat is all thees that my eeyes see.... constitutional debates? Wowie! Lemme just hazard a guess, is this ShauryaT?
BTW, I know that the only true-blue lawyer, someone who got his cherry popped and had his head shaved with a blunt clamshell in a Law School, perhaps in the whole fr1ggin' DF, goes "incognito" and always stays out of those discussions. Hey boss, you reading all this?
Bye for now.
-Anand K.
Dear Anonymous,
(who is responding to faizi)
I agree with the "be prepared" to deal with any eventuality idea.
However - I remain very skeptical of the surviviability and reliability of most of these megaton yeild nuke delivery systems.
To be perfectly honest, every time around we test something, my heart jumps into my mouth.
You may recall that the ABM treaty was signed to avoid making platforms like the SS-18 and the Titan obsolete. It was felt that the development of ABM systems would greatly reduce confidence in the MT yeild bearers and that lacking alternatives - the ICBM arsenal would expand to sizes that would caus economic ruin. The ABM treaty is in a defacto renegotiation. The US is pushing the idea that it is a fall back against the actions of rogue states outside the existing deterrent schemes.
I had my doubts about the ABM systems and their viability. I felt the basic problem - ensuring a deadon intercept at those speeds required a resolution of non-trivial targetting and guidance issues. I felt that the claims of accuracy from missiles were rubbish and that at the end of the day the ABMs would enter service with SA-5 type warheads. This way - there would be no patriot v/s scud foul ups.
About a year ago - there was a forum thread on beam weapons. Most of it was regurgitating what had already been seen in the context of the publicity material released to sell the ABL program with one notable exception - the idea of using a laser pulse train to achieve a burn through the atmosphere. I had never seen that in public before. Making it work needs extra-ordinary timing precision - technology that has only very recently become available. The appearance of such ideas in public discussion worried me a lot.
The technology required to make high intensity RF pulses has been around for a while. Coupled with a "burn through" idea - one could easily concieve of a system that achieves an extremely directed burst of the RF energy and no - I don't see why this has to go on a satellite - it can very easily go on an ABM interceptor. I fear you could fashion a relatively low tech platform like the Prithvi to accomodate one of these.
This completely sidesteps the problem of engineering a dead on collision between interceptor and target. This to me seemed like the text book example of a disruptive technology.
When I read things like this - my convictin that the days of the ballistic missile are numbered grew.
At the end of the day with available systems - the yeild to weight ranges - represents a hard limit on what is practicable.
One has limited choices - we have to make the best of what we have and not become obsessed with dreams.
Hi,
I am just going to come out and say it - please remember it is just me saying it and not anyone else and I am saying it because I want to know what you all think - so as usual bhaiyon and behenon speak freely.
Instead of chasing this MT yeild and associated hole in the ground stuff, maybe the money is better spent on ABM systems (for non-subcontinentals) and counter proliferation initiatives/joint threat reduction (for Pakistanis) instead?
Sufficient overlap between the initiatives could cover any gaps that might exist due to look-west attitudes in Pakistan?
Arre yeh Sudeep kahan gaya?
Sudeep Bhai I want you to answer my question.
Hello Anonymous,
Though I stress it is not my place to make such decisions, but I venture that it is not khetolai or an island that is the problem.
The problem is self-doubt.
Who can guarentee that self-doubt will be eliminated?
Today people are questioning Shakti 1 and all it took to get the Hon. Webmaster to defect to the NPA dushman's side was one RaviCV who claimed to know what he was talkign about.
I mean seriously tomorrow we blow out PTBT commitments and conduct an atmospheric test. The air samplers, the water testers, the fish collectors ... for all we know women and children with peanuts and popcorn come by and then what?
Sure the air samplers, water testers, fish collectors will know more about the device than you and I will and maybe a few people sitting on the beach eating popcorn will see the flash on the horizon. but then what?
The same thing as 1998 - some suit and book Dr. Big Fancy Name from Famous University comes on NDTV and says no.. no it was not 1 MT it was actually just 1 kT they had the cameraman use the zoom feature on the lens etc... If CPI is in power - the BJP will say - "Aha.. Machurian bomb", if BJP is in power the CPI will say "Hindu Dud", if Congress is in power - people will say "Italian bomb" etc...
After that some "Indian evironmentalist" group will turn up claiming that they caught fish from the sea and the fish has unreacted plutonium inside it. Another "Indian Tribal Rights" group will come by and say cancer rate among newborns in tribal areas of Jaduguda has quadrupled because of fallout from the atmospheric test and then another "Indian Anti-Nuclear Scientists" group will complain that the temperature of the coffee they have to drink has gone up because of the radiation released into the global water resources by the overground test. Then five years later some "webmaster" will come and say how DAE is a fraud etc... etc...
Two hundred and fifty articles in Current Science later, you and I will be back here discussing the problem of self doubt.
This hardly seems like the sort of thing one wants to expose our nuclear calculus to.
If one has to do something - there should be an exigient circumstance - and penis envy does not constitute one - in my opinion.
>> If you feel so strongly about it, why dont you suggest a system, instead of criticizing the present system. And good luck at trying to get it accepted and implemented.
I feel strongly because every ounce I have read on it, observed and experienced suggests that our country needs a change, desperately and I am not beholden to any single political point of view, to defend the indefensible.
There are multiple alternatives and models that have been presented by various luminaries, including modifications in the current parliamentary system. Almost all of them converge on the idea of a separation of the executive from the legislature at the federal and state levels and strengthening of local governance.
>> And inspite of all that, they lost. What does that say about the judgment of the people of India on their performance?.
People are “rationally ignorant”. If you are a keen observer of the election process in India and/or of our system, you will realize that people do not vote (normally) on national issues. As a rule of thumb, the individual looks to his own advantage here and now and not the country’s. He is all too easily swept by false promises and visions, by simple slogans, oftener by envy, fear, greed, hatred and blind faith. He is swayed by Charlatans. By outright falsehood.
He will eventually learn, but by then it is too late. For the person, he elected to office would have done enough harm. The idea that the individual is well informed about public affairs or will exert to inform himself is a myth. Mind you the voter is not stupid, simply ignorant and rationally so.
So, only when things break down (or there is an obvious threat of external aggression) the romanticized, all powerful, all knowing “people” will take the trouble to follow-up on information on available choices. Even then, his capacity to evaluate these choices is in serious doubt.
This is where factors such as the kind of polity, the politics played, the level of education, the role of media and many other factors come into play. If politicians indulge in rights mongering and vote bank politics, if the system favors fragmentation, if the level of education and capacity to absorb information is poor and if the media plays a dumbed down role the result is that the “actual” performance of a national level government against the prevailing situation – does not matter.
The factors leading to the NDA defeat had NOTHING to do with their performance. For every defeat you can cite for the BJP’s defeat there is a corresponding win in the 2004 time that one has to explain (Rajasthan and MP).
Anand K,
are you referring to Raj Malhotra?
>>This anonymous is a sore loser Bajrangi type. He is a Modi-Bhakt...
Thank you for your kind comments. I am neither a Bajrangi nor a loser. I may be wrong but then you will have to use your head and your typing skills to prove it.
To the anonymous who responded to me:
"On MT level nukes et al - A nation such as India has to prepare for "any" unforeseen eventuality. Cannot do that with the measly 2.75% like defense spending with two nuclear neighbors, both sitting with our territory. The alternative to a strong self reliant India does exist, it is popularly known as GUBO."
The argument you make above is different from an argument for an arsenal with a number of high MT yield nukes. I made no comment about the defense spending at all. Besides if you think MT nuke arsenals will negate the possibility of a GUBO alternative, you are naive. We have a credible deterrent, and are better off investing in the technology to assure its delivery and also alternatives to the usual cold war ICBM paradigm.
There is a reason I raised the issue of food prices. We are a very vulnerable nation, especially to the "GUBO" kind of attitudes. Our energy supply is external, and our economy is basically hostage to this (and to food prices which also depend on energy supply). Having MT yield nukes is not going to solve this problem. So, unless you can persuade me that this belief (that MT yield nukes =! assured energy security) is wrong, there is no reason to believe that having an arsenal of high MT yield nukes is fundamentally important for a strong, self reliant India.
Further:
"On the comaprision to the UK, one has to really understand the history and evolution of parliaments in the context of the history of the UK and parliaments' battle for power with the monarch and other vested interests. Then, answer the question, did the Indian republic share the same geo-political characteristics or even a similar type of history to automatically qualify the parliamentary model, as practised in the UK, as the most appropriate for India."
You are the one who made comparisons to Britain and other European countries to make your case that the current parliamentary system is bad for India. I think it is plainly disingenuous for you to now make the argument that such comparisons are not useful or appropriate for India.
Secondly, with regard to your larger point, that "Then, answer the question, did the Indian republic share the same geo-political characteristics or even a similar type of history to automatically qualify the parliamentary model, as practised in the UK, as the most appropriate for India.";
Simply because the geopolitical circumstances are different does not logically lead to the conclusion that their model of democracy is inappropriate for India. Such a conclusion would require arguing that a given political structure should uniquely mirror "geopolitical circumstances" which change substantially with time).
My view that democracy, when shorn of all the moralistic rhetoric, is predicated on a distribution of power. Any society will develop a natural hierarchy of power, with a tendency for most of this power to be concentrated in the hands of a few groups. A democratic setup is a recognition of this reality, and an attempt to work around it, by ensuring that power is always distributed among competing groups and institutions, so that its concentration is mitigated, both by the inherent competition between the different arms of a democratic structure (executive, judiciary and the legislature) and by ensuring that different representative groups have a chance to rise to the top of the hierarchy at different times (through elections). In other words, a functioning democratic setup acts to continually redistribute power. Seen in this light, what is happening in India is a pretty natural redistribution of power to groups that never had access to it previously.
Also, if you think Mr. Naidu does not play votebank politics you clearly dont understand Andhra state politics. I am pretty sure the same thing could be said of Mr. Modi.
>>At the end of the day with available systems - the yeild to weight ranges - represents a hard limit on what is practicable.
One has limited choices - we have to make the best of what we have and not become obsessed with dreams.
The choices are always limited and as you say let the people in the know make the best decisions. Right now they are busy building the Agni IV, not exotics, such as RF weapons. Offense and defense both need to part of the strategy and one does not come at the expense of the other.
>>The problem is self-doubt.
Who can guarentee that self-doubt will be eliminated?
Only actions can guarantee this. Demonstrable action by the Indian polity that India is willing to act to defend its interests. Leadership has a role to play here. No one doubts Agni any more, do they?
>>If one has to do something - there should be an exigient circumstance - and penis envy does not constitute one - in my opinion.
This is where I diverge. By the time circumstances are clear, there is no time to build capabilities. The China build up and deceptions from 51-62 are an example.
In the world view that even Nehru believed in, there are only 4 large natural powers the US, Russia, China and India. India’s CAPABILITIES ought to be on par with these large powers, or one of them or as a gang, they will cut is down – and rightly so.
>>Besides if you think MT nuke arsenals will negate the possibility of a GUBO alternative, you are naive….
there is no reason to believe that having an arsenal of high MT yield nukes is fundamentally important for a strong, self reliant India.
My argument is for an MT capability not necessarily an arsenal. If you understand Geo-Political power politics, then you will not make the above statement. MT nukes alone will not save us but not having it will harm us.
Power is multi dimensional. Japan is a first rate economy but not a world power. You will have to convince Indians that our natural aspirations ought to be like Japan and not seek to compete with the P5. Competing with P5, makes the MT capability essential. If we are the only sane country around, the mad folks will simply gang up on us and hurl all kinds of 3 and 4 letter acronyms to prove to us that we are a lesser power. It is a cut throat environment there. In a dog eat dog world you either compete to win or be eaten. We have a lot of catch up to do and do have the capability and wherewithal to do it, only if the political will is clear.
>>You are the one who made comparisons to Britain and other European countries to make your case that the current parliamentary system is bad for India. I think it is plainly disingenuous for you to now make the argument that such comparisons are not useful or appropriate for India.
Excuse me, It was ldev, who brought in these nations’ systems and not me. So, please do not accuse me of something that I did not start. Either ways,
>>A democratic setup is a recognition of this reality, and an attempt to work around it, by ensuring that power is always distributed among competing groups and institutions, so that its concentration is mitigated, both by the inherent competition between the different arms of a democratic structure (executive, judiciary and the legislature) and by ensuring that different representative groups have a chance to rise to the top of the hierarchy at different times (through elections). In other words, a functioning democratic setup acts to continually redistribute power. Seen in this light, what is happening in India is a pretty natural redistribution of power to groups that never had access to it previously.
You are completely wrong in your understanding of the purpose of democratic parliaments. Parliament is not a congress of ambassadors from different and hostile interests, which interests each must maintain, as an agent and advocate, against other agents and advocates; but parliament is a deliberative assembly, of one nation with one interest, that of the whole, where, not local purposes, not local prejudices, ought to guide but the general good, resulting from the general reason of the whole. People choose a member indeed, but when they have chosen him he is not a member of that constituency, he is a member of parliament of the nation.
I will not go into details on the last part of your comment, about the groups, as someone else here knows my views on it and that is again one “big” debate.
>>How now brown cow!
Yep, its me. Now, that was not too difficult to guess, waz it?
Am here, to ensure the echo chamber does not get too comfortable!
Did you post a comment on NDTV some months back on some caste topic? Just wondering.
ShauryaT
who is ShauryaT and how does he happen to know my personal details? ... I don't recall him from DF ...
?? this is weird ??
>>who is ShauryaT and how does he happen to know my personal details? ... I don't recall him from DF ...
?? this is weird ??
If you would have said, I am weird, it would have been more in character :)
I do not "know" your personal details but was an avid reader of what you had to say. I am not important, you are.
Do not worry, i do not know anything personal about you.
ShauryaT
anonymous,
I am of the opinion that the 1998 tests have demonstrated our capacity to build MT weapons. I am, of course, not in the need of further detailed information regarding the tests and designs used as some others seem to be. So, this issue is, in my mind, moot.
Parliament is very much a collection of representatives, each of whom represents various different interest groups to varying degrees. Their actions in parliament need not (and are not) always adversarial, as you seem to believe my view implies, but are very much in keeping with whom they represent. After all, legislation is usually a consequence of compromise between representatives of differing interests.
>> I am of the opinion that the 1998 tests have demonstrated our capacity to build MT weapons.
That is a statement, which has been a subject of debate in the highest bodies of our government. There are people in whom, I place my trust, who do not believe the above.
>>After all, legislation is usually a consequence of compromise between representatives of differing interests.
National legislation first and foremost, ought to be about a judgement on what is good for the whole. Within that is scope for compromise. Now, I hope you know that our MP's do not effectively deliberate as their right to a free exercise of their judgement has been snatched from them.
Also, there is an issue of capability here. Please do check on exactly how long and by how many votes are acts in parliament debated and voted.
ShauryaT
Is there a way to edit...
India may well have the theoretical capability to design an MT level weapon but it is to be proven, at least through a scalable test or other methods.
"Do not worry, i do not know anything personal about you.
ShauryaT"
no problems, ShauryaT ... I mistook you for another pesky anonymous ... there is one dude here who has a lowlife tendency of mucking up the conversation with his guttural utterances ...
pleasure to meet you ... I have a lot to say about TerraBoom devices but I am sitting out the anonymous monkey attack ...
oh well, back to lurk for a while ... Cheers.
I will say one thing before ducking ...
TerraBoom is yesterday's news ... folks in favor of pursuing them pathakhas are advocating mother of all "catch up" crap ...
as M has pointed out, ABM systems is the way forward ... in some ways that also suits India's technical prowess (which IMO is more evolved in raakets than in bums) ...
now, the big Q is about setting goals ... see, this is hard ... we can't do a monkey routine here, can we?
in TerraBoom, all the monkies say, "I want a boom as big as what China boomed in 1963, Amen" ...
ok, fine ...
now, with ABM's what do the monies say? ...
"I want to fail as badly as Uncle failed with his last interceptor tests?"
think about it folks ... to be a leader needs thinking like a leader ... TerraBoom is yesterday's news ... it is so stale, even dead fish are avoiding it ...
no one except jumping monkies is interested in yesterday's flash ...
so, what, gentle readers, is the use of TerraBoom? ... what in fact can make TerraBoom ineffective? ...
pay attention to the specs for an ABM that India can achieve ... that would be forward thinking rather than monkey aping behavior ...
Cheers, all!
Hi Maverick,
For educated Indians the events leading up to '62 loom large in public memory. The lost oppotunities, the failings of the then leadership, and the lack of preparedness have been burned into that memory.
The attempts later to cover up the failings of those leaders, and not allowing open criticism or debates (through the ruling party's stranglehold on media till the 1990s) lead to the harsh questioning (abuse) of the current leadership.
The refusal to make public the Henderson-Bhagat report has aggravated the lack of faith in the current political leadership. It is natural then for educated Indians to question the motives of some of their leaders.
I agree that the "lack of balls" kind of argument does not have any sober rejoinder, but why not accept that such abuse is inevitable in any debate on national security?
Hi Mav,
What would you do if you keep civil and try to bring the attention of government to an issue, but the government knows that you are powerless and ignores you. And you are deeply concerned about the issue
1. You are a poor farmer and tried to convey your issue through panchayat and failed. You have no other means to express your frustrations or to live and finally commit suicide.
2. You are a rich brat (with no extra power though) with access to internet as your only medium. You are not going to die in the immediate future but you are really concerned about the issue.
An example for govt's behavior for (2) is - everybody is concerned about impact of Hyde Act in nuclear strategic security, message is conveyed to the concerned authorities, but the standard response is that it doesn't have any impact. Govt is corrected by people who matter in the US three times and GoI's response is still the same, as if the people who ask are dumb asses. What would you infer from this and how will you react/proceed (I know that by being uncivil you are not going to get a proper response from the government)
(I'm not the main anonymous here)
airavat,
If I may respond. I think the point is not that the kind of govt incompetence cannot occur (I think it does more often than not), but that there is a thin line between such criticisms and attempts by different interest groups (often outside India) to pressure the GoI into a course of action. One problem is that a lot of govt criticism, especially about things like the nuclear program, is from dubious sources, and the corresponding public debate in India is often limited. Of course, this limitation of internal debate is as much due to the nature of information control by agencies of the GoI in India as due to anything else.
Hi Airavat,
Welcome to my humble abode!
You are absolutely right about '62, however I feel that there will always be a stabbed-in-the-back type thoughts that the public will find entertaining.
The same natak is played out in connection with Kargil despite the fact that the conflict ended on our terms. Ten years down the forum still has a thread dedicated to Kargil.
Some abuse is okay/natural - but I just don't want it to feed a fear psychosis - you know - I don't do well in exams because I fear doing badly in exams.
Also ultimately the HB report could be released forty years later - by contrast the POK1/S1/S2 designs can never be released.
I feel people who forget etiquette create unnecessary political costs by alienating insitutions.
I feel people should not forget - that every govt. ambassador car has a hidden inscription on its number plate which reads "tirchi nazar wale tera muh kala".
Dear Anonymous,
I cannot comment on what is being done/not done and so I am keen to keep this discussion in the realm where we can discuss what might be done.
I feel public debate driven by self doubt cannot be allowed get too decision making. Also GoI actions and public appraisal are merely distant cousins.
I personally doubt the Agni will survive against Chinese clones of the US ABM systems.
I feel the Agni program should definetely be continued but rather than pushing the boundaries on things it cannot be expected to do - we should use it to create benchmarks for any ABM systems we develop and also to aid in the modernisation of our armed forces.
I interpret Pt. Nehru's view to mean that stabilising a multipolar world order requires the maintenance of an extraordinarily delicalte balance of power.
Presently, the P5 have huge arsenals that they don't know how to pay for. They can't dismantle the weapons for fear of losing a sense of potency. They cannot use the systems for fear of destroying the idea of deterrence. They are developing ABM systems to get them out of this mess.
This in my perception is the present state of the multipolar world order. I feel any balancing arguments have to be made against this backdrop.
Dear Anonymous,
GoI sources have repeatedly indicated that the Hyde Act is an US law that applies to the US. It does not apply to India.
Everyone knows America's post-Nagasaki guilt complex chains them to bizarre behaviour on the nuclear front. Even without a Hyde act - we know they are prone to all manner of misguided behaviour.
All efforts to make random Americans stop talking out of turn before the media have failed. American society is a media driven, the American public loves juicy sound-bites and Americans love to talk big in front of the camera - it is that whole concept of the 15 minutes of fame.
I don't know how internet savvy Indians who have been continously exposed to US culture via cable TV throughout the 90s can forget this. Yaar seriously - how can you watch Baywatch and not grasp the US obsession with perpetually inflatable boobs?
I don't understand how US NRIs who are continously exposed to US culture can pretend not to know this.
Every Indian should feel free to criticise the GoI - it is their right but I don't know how Indians on the internet can ignore all the above fact and then use this ignorance as a basis to abuse the GoI.
>>Seen in this light, what is happening in India is a pretty natural redistribution of power to groups that never had access to it previously.
Faizi: I would like you to consider, what has this pandering to groups done to the Indian polity.
Rights mogering, leads to grievance mongering, which in turn leads to looking for grievances, which in turn leads to inventing grievances, which in turn leads to making the perception of being aggreived, which in turn leads to the leaders of the group drilling even deeper into that group that it remains discriminated against, which in turn leads to rulers and would-be rulers to go on pandering more and more to group, as a group, which in turn leads to splintering the society into even smaller fragments.
Is this what Unity in Diversity means? Pray, how?
>>I personally doubt the Agni will survive against Chinese clones of the US ABM systems.
I feel the Agni program should definetely be continued but rather than pushing the boundaries on things it cannot be expected to do - we should use it to create benchmarks for any ABM systems
Russia and China are not surely mad to invest in their MIRV programs, designed to beat the ABM systems, sometimes simply by overwhelming them with numbers. Russia was actually glad to get out of the ABM treaty, but was happy to blame the US for withdrawing.
The more ABM systems get smarter, the more will the missiles figure ways to beat them, until such time that one completely overwhelms the other. That stage has not reached yet and that is the reason - NO ONE is willing to forego the sword for the shield.
>>>GoI sources have repeatedly indicated that the Hyde Act is an US law that applies to the US. It does not apply to India.
talk about unfounded optimism
arre bhai,
I can understand your reluctance ... you are probably someone who has already been discredited once on DF so you are trying again as anonymous ...
all of this silliness/nautanki is quite useless ... this website is a nice corner for grown-ups to play ... why not just find a sandbox somewhere and chill?
now, if I say I have had enough of you, the monkey routine will consist of chanting "running when challenged" ...
ROFL!
diamond baby quit whining
if the heats too strong for your tender skin, apply nivea and sit your wrinkled self in the shade! :-)
man u nri's - all talk and talk and talk and talk..
Hi Anonymous,
I do not wish to enter into any discussions on MIRV ideas in India. I leave that to the Hon. Webmaster who now claims to have seems "coined" the "Agni SL".
I only wish to point out differences between where we stand where the Russians and Chinese stand.
The Russians and Chinese have large numbers of BMs already deployed. They spent trillions of dollars getting there and they do not have money to make any more of these things.
The American PAC-3 degrades the psychological effectiveness of the Russian and Chinese missiles. By talking about things like maneuvering warheads etc... the Chinese and the Russians hope to restore the psychological effectiveness of their missiles.
So I think they have their reasons.
One does not know how successful the Russian or Chinese efforts in this arena have been. It is already quite difficult to test the claims of the PAC-3 system - I don't know how one tests the claims of a PAC-3-beating warhead.
There is a need for benchmark systems.
I think the PAD demonstration is a very very valuable contribution in that direction.
Dear Anonymous,
The GoI is not legally bound by the Hyde Act.
The Hyde Act is a contract between the Executive and the Legislative branches in the USG.
The GoI is only bound to the July-18 Agreement.
How the USG reconciles apparent differences between the July-18th agreement and the Hyde Act is an internal matter for the USG.
It would be inappropriate for the GoI to comment on that.
As I am not GoI, I can say anything I want.
So - this is just me personally.
I don't see anything in the Hyde Act, that is not already in Nuclear Non-Proliferation Act.
There appears to be a dissonance between the Congress/Senate and the President. There is a division of labour in the US - the President usually handles most of the external stuff and the legislature handles the internal stuff and they have disagreed on things from time to time.
The most recent dissonance pertains to the now publicised US-Russia nuclear trade agreement - the President's men negotiated it and the Senators/Congressmen are opposed to it.
The very same USG which routinely makes a huge fuss about China's poor human rights record and its ICBMs - is perfectly happy handing lead paint covered Chinese made toys to American toddlers.
The same Sen. (NY-D) Charles Schumer who is violently opposed to DPW purchasing Baltimore Port leads the crowd in thanking the UAE government for having "bailed" out Citigroup in NYC.
Contradictions like this are amusing but not fundamentally troublesome.
The currency crisis on the other hand - that is a real problem.
a monkey sitting in the shade of a gigantic umbrella of anonymity is suggesting that others "can't stand the heat" ... ROFL
These Bajrangi losers are known for their limited bravado. It is no wonder that this latest specimen is a coward.
a monkey sitting in the shade of a gigantic umbrella of anonymity is suggesting that others "can't stand the heat" ... ROFL
lol, better than a donkey who posts nonsense hiding under fake name
display ur bravery diamond boy and ur identity
why, scared
ask yourself the same Q ...
you are not even revealing your DF handle ...
As Mav said this anonymous person is harmless but is there a way to ignore his posts?
Hello,
So it appears the 123 with Russia is running into the same problems.
This 123 is to allow the Russians to set up an international spent fuel storage facility. Once such a facility is up and running, the path to reprocessing opens up.
As you all know reprocessing is blasphemy in the NPA pantheon - predictably Congressional leaders are opposing this 123 as well.
I also note that as with the Indo-US 123 - the opposition in the US Congress is demanding Russia give something vis-a-vis Iran in order to get this 123 through. One of the senators is openly suggesting that the Pres. Bush use the congressional opposition to leverage an end to Russian *conventional* arms sales to Iran and possibly an end to Russian cooperation at Bushehr.
The repeat of this pattern is curious - technically - opposition to the US-India 123 centered on the idea that India is not a NPT signatory and does not fit the defintion of a P5 state. Russia is an NPT signatory and a P5 state.
I think the oil industry based in the US knows that it is going to take a horrible beating domestically if the price inflation continues.
I agree that oil prices are *escalating* on the grand scale but at the pump right now it is very much an inflation in the price of oil. At the very least there is a risk that US demand could drop - a prospect that the oil industry does not relish.
I suspect the oil industry is now struggling to capture as much refining capacity as possible and its friends in Congress are leveraging alongside.
Iran and Venezuela are the big refineries that the US based oil guys can easily grab.
Iran's efforts at Bushehr will improve domestic industrial output. It is plausible that this could reduce Iran's dependence on oil refining/extraction related imports.
wow!!
http://satishchandraletterstopress.blogspot.com/
"New Delhi is the seat of the white man’s continuing rule over India. In destroying it with a single nuclear detonation, options for delivery range from hand-delivery to cars and other vehicles to missiles. Various options exist as to yield and type of nuclear weapon.
ADDED APRIL 13, 2008: DRDO’s Task (contd.) : Efficiency of a single nuclear detonation in removing traitors:
Not all traitors are alike. Indian traitors are nigger blackie slaves of the white man who are comfortable in an inferior, master-slave relationship to the white man. As I have said below regarding the couple dozen non-politicians including six former service chiefs, in India such inferior Indian niggers are the rule rather than the exception. Instead of shooting them, it is efficient to get rid of such obstructors of India’s nuclear supremacy over the United States by means of a single nuclear detonation centered on RAW headquarters."
"From: Satish Chandra, P.O. Box 381629, Cambridge, MA 02238, USA
Telephone: 617-282-4996 FAX: 617-825-4973 "
" (January 20 ‘08) I graduated from IIT, Kharagpur in 1966 and was nominated by the department head for the best Institute graduate of the year award."
"RAW has been loyal to its imperialist paymasters from the beginning. India's problems, including DRDO's, will only be solved when all RAW employees are machine gunned and bulldozed into trenches (see same link in posting # 55)."
"So, grateful to be the BJP's traitor-in-chief after Vajpayee, Advani wrote the current traitor-in-office Manmohan Singh (see my blog http://satishchandraletterstopress.blogspot.com ) asking him to give Vajpayee a Bharat Ratna. Instead, all of them (Vajpayee, Manmohan Singh, Advani) should be split in two lengthwise with an axe on three successive days, their two halves hollowed out, then the AIDS woman should be asked to defecate in their hollowed out torsoes on the three successive days. Before they are split in two, they should be allowed a last wish -- specify what the AIDS woman should eat the day before she defecates in their hollowed out torsoes; they can specify chicken or daal roti or whatever. After sewing the two halves shut, the torsoes should be roasted, sliced into thin slices and served with tea to all the RAW employees as a Republic Day-eve treat. And don't forget to let cabinet ministers Manishankar Aiyar, Health Minister Ramadoss and Science and Technology Minister Sibal, who sit at C.I.A.-supplied terminals to participate in crimes against India's greatest scientist and the greatest living Indian, partake of the treat (roasted traitor-torsoes stuffed with dog-faeces). Like all the RAW employees, these criminals will be machine gunned and bulldozed into trenches, which will also be the actual punishment of Vajpayee, Manmohan Singh and Advani along with other politicians (see my blog cited above in this paragraph)."
It goes on forever like this.
OMFG,
This is way out of whack even compared to illuminati conspiracy theories.I always suspected PGM's are a border line cases.But this guy takes the cake.
Since he is singing Paeans for drdo will he now call APJ as a traitor too?
Abhisheik
Hi M,
This Satish Chander guy is a known nutcase ... looks like RAW tickled him recently and he has gone ballistic ...
in other news, APJK is the latest "sell out traitor" ...
ROFL
Abhisheik,
you beat me by one minute ... Mithaiwalla-Ji is indeed tarring APJK ...
This is strange.Does BJP really believe that they can renegotiate this deal?And this after saying there is no word like honour in USA?
Abhisheik
MAV,
According to MKB Negroponte said the following words
"More than ever, our [US] national security depends on the success, security and stability of Pakistan ... We recognize that our fate - that is, our security, our freedom, our prosperity - is linked to the fate of the people of Pakistan,"
Was this mere grandiloquence on his part or a freudian slip about pukis having achieved a deterrence against them as you say?
Abhisheik
Hi,
See this is the problem - the way these people are talking - I can't tell the difference between them and the terrorists anymore.
Ofcourse this is not a sane person, but how does one distinguish between someone who has lost sight of politeness and a person with malicious intentions?
I wonder if this is a US citizen advocating an act of nuclear terrorism in India or an Indian citizen living abroad - suggesting that people use nuclear violence as a means to a political end in India.
What does someone make of a person who is "insane" enough to use such language but "sane" enough to have a P.O. Box instead of an actual address?
I have never seen such language used in public the context of GoI.
Yes, I have seen security officers brutally tortured by criminals posing as "freedom fighters", and yes I have seen unarmed intelligence people killed by "religious zealots", but even during the emergency, I don't recall anyone advocating the use of a nuclear weapon to "wipe out" R&AW HQ.
It is not clear to me - how many people who oppose the government actually approve of this kind of talk. I imagine that there aren't too many people in India who would like this sort of behaviour but their silence is equally compelling.
Perhaps people are missing the fact that this person is advocating the use of nuclear weapons to resolve *internal* political disputes in India.
I don't understand why Bharat Rakshak is hosting such views in the first place.
They go to such great lengths to ban Alok N, but it appears that someone advocating the nuking of New Delhi to suit their personal political agenda is welcome on the forum?
I am confused - to say the least.
They are actually discussing that loony blog on bharat rakshak? WOW :O I am amazed! Dont tell me that they are supportive of that nutjob?
"They go to such great lengths to ban Alok N, but it appears that someone advocating the nuking of New Delhi to suit their personal political agenda is welcome on the forum?"
Hi Mav,
Where is it on the forum. I understand you have a problem with the forum for whatever reasons which is perfectly fine. But you are deliberately associating complicity which for a respected individual such as yourself is way below the belt. Just a quick note to the admins would take care of the problem, no?
What has happened to the folks I once respected (actually still do) so much.
Pradeep
Hi Anonymous,
I find this S Chandra's blog very bewildering.
And I find the manner in which this sort of view is allowed to slide into the forum without contest or censure equally strange.
Do the forum members endorse such views?
If not why does no one come out and oppose it?
It appears the forum's greatness never ceases.
In other priceless news it per the latest trend in discussions - Tagore professor is now a "uncle tom".
Tagore professor, who stood by India in all those decades - (even when all the very babus that the forum loves to hate hung him out to dry) - has falled from grace on the forum.
It seems - in his latest article on Newsweek - Tagore professor made the "mistake" of pointing out that Pakistan based terrorist groups could still create an escalation between India and Pakistan.
In his article Tagore professor argues that the manner in which the Islamic militant groups are being marginalised by an American sponsorred political process is likely to make them more inclined to strike out at India in less than predictable ways. AFAIK - this is no different from what the forum has been saying for the better part of the last decade.
Yet somehow the when the Tagore professor brought up the likelihood of the Jihadis spurring an Indo-Pak nuclear escalation - people on the forum proceeded to diss him.
Tagore professor explicitly qualifies the proliferation scenario -
"A series of abrupt attacks against targets in India would not only derail the entire peace process but trigger yet another nuclear crisis in the subcontinent."
"The popular fear is that one or more of these groups may seize components of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal and thereby wreak havoc in the region and beyond. This misgiving, while understandable, is mostly chimerical. Short of a wholesale breakdown of the Pakistani military apparatus, such an outcome, while most frightening, is quite unlikely. The military values its nuclear arsenal and maintains a firm grip on the country's nuclear weapons infrastructure."
"The more substantial concern is that one of these organizations will precipitate yet another crisis with India in which they embroil the new Pakistani regime."
Now what about this is NPA speak? As far as I can tell this exactly what the forum's own "experts" have been yelling for the better part of the UPA government's tenure.
Somehow the statement:
"The nuclear danger in the subcontinent lies elsewhere"
is being interpreted as a statement by Tagore Professor about the nuclear tests that the forum has convinced itself that India is going to do the moment someone they think is not a "traitor" sits in the PMO.
I don't know if that will happen or not - but I fail to see how anything the Tagore professor has said links up with this.
I don't know why people on the forum have seen it fit to forget - the professor has for the better part of the last decade talked about the "stability-instability" paradox. In fact he was the first one to talk about in the context of the Kargil conflict and he pointed out that global stability and local stability were too different things.
It is curious to note that criticism of Tagore professor emerged only after this article (http://www.newsweek.com/id/40803/page/1) appeared where he suggested that a BJP-UPA combined action would be needed to get the deal cleared on the Indian end.
Essentially - anyone who supports the deal - is automatically classified as a traitor or an enemy of India.
It won't be long before APJK is attacked.
Pradeepe,
I am utterly shocked to see that this poster has not been challenged on the forum.
Ok so may be the admins are busy - but why are the rest of the rakshaks letting this slide?
Why has no one made a complaint to the admin yet? - the post has not even been flagged.
The post is here.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=3464&start=80
look for a post by Schandra.
pradeep,
Just a quick note to the admins would take care of the problem, no?
What has happened to the folks I once respected (actually still do) so much."
Just a quick note to the NPT P-5 would have resulted in a nuke-free world, no?
What has happened to the folks I once thought were analytical?
in reality, DF is seriously FEUKED ...
there are some AdminTollahs who are PSec Supremos who can not see/hear/speak any evil about EJ ... these Dodos have problems with the likes of me ...
then there are other AdminTollahs who see/hear/speak evil of MMS+Sonia combine and are out hunting for "traitors" ... these folks (who are friends of mine) have problems with the likes of Maverick ...
so, where do we stand? ...
basically, nowhere ... DF is reduced to a P.E.N.I.S. thread as its most relevant contribution to the world ... (sorry, N^3, if you think that came out wrong) ...
but take heart ...
DF wi;; soon have a kick-ass Nukkad thread provided that all irrelevant talk of WRONG PHYSICS is kicked out of Nukkad by Nayakullah Boss ...
LOL ...
There was an interesting exchange in the forum when a member posted an article about how Athens "democratic" City State went gung-ho and the disastrous results of that euphoria. Scratch that, make it "interesting dismissal"! Outright dismissal at that too. Maybe it was just cursory or I am plain wrong but I can't help thinking this is indicative of certain dynamics in the DF and outside...
Fellow Gaddaars here pleej just tie this snippet to running forum key-words like "Ruling Social Groups", "New and Unified Indic Narrative" and those quite ominous posts on what should be done about the constitution and how "we should make a point to all".
Anybody else feel uncomfortable about the direction the DCH and co are going/being led? Well, there were soothing passages by an admin and other leading lights in some threads on how the DIE/SLIME/commie/pinko/IM must understand that nobody's out for their blood and trying to trample them down. If it's all true about going forward and having no axes to grind it's fine with me.... but that's not the way it's gonna happen ultimately(not with certain cross-sections of the populace)
It's all about the voice, eh? How far should can this Vox Populi go? All the way? And what if that voice (that rises above all other voices) not really representative of the entire Nation? There are ways to create and amplify selected channels on the way to the Grand Prize...
-Anand K
PS:
But hey, caveat empor and all that. An Archmage had recently divined that I am busy seeing chaddiwaalahs behind every post. ;)
>> Satish Chandra
Heh Heh, bhy onlee pick on thij poor poor Gaped (sic) Crusader who has nothing but patriotism in the deep, dark and pink depths of his being? There are Adminullahs who have found out that Independence was (and is) a sham... a well planned Potemkin Village. The first time I read that I had an epiphany of that “Simpson Tide” episode.
-Anand K
Preamble:
This has reference to the post titled "CAT has nothing to do with the bomb" (Wednesday, April 09, 2008). My comment below is being posted here since I felt that the April 09 post may now be passe. I am not a laser specialist.
I have just now come across the following paragraph in the monograph (ISBN NO 0972-3889) titled "Nuclear Energy in India - A Perspective" published in the year 2000 by The Indian National Academy of Engineering.
Quote
CAT and BARC are the DAE research centres engaged in laser research and applications. Materials processing by lasers is an on-going programme in the DAE. Fiber delivery of laser power higher than 10 kW is useful for fuel fabrication and radioactive disassembly operation requiring remote handling. Laser Isotope Separation (LIS) technique has applications in tailoring zirconium to reduce the Zr-91 content, so as to enable PHWR fuels to yield 25% more energy. The LIS technique is also useful in U-235 enrichment, in reducing the cost of tritium recovery in PHWRs, and (potentially) in cleaning U-233 fuel to reduce the content of the hard gamma emitting isotope. CAT is developing lasers for a variety of uses in industry and medicine; for instance, dye lasers, owing to their tunability, are useful for application in photochemistry, spectroscopy and nonlinear optics.
Unquote
I presume LIS technique could also be used to separate Pu-241, Pu-242 etc. from Pu-239 (reactor grade Pu).
my local auto parts machine shop has the capacity to manufacture guns ...
Hence, they MUST be making guns ...
any other google gems? :)
Hello Anonymous,
Could you please tell me who the author of this piece is? because I do not recall seeing this one before - thank you.
I do not know if the laser technology CAT has developed can be used for separation of Plutonium isotopes but I doubt it. I don't know of anyone in the world has demonstrated the ability to separate Pu isotopes using preferential ionization. If CAT had done something like that - it would be a global first.
LEU fuels the BWRs at Tarapur, that is why there is interest in U-235 enrichment.
It costs a lot of money to do LIS, and it is only really profitable to do this when there is a gain in energy production which can pay for the enrichment.
If India had a giant bubble of oil/natural gas/high quality coal under its land or was in control of global oil refining resources - then maybe India would pursue expensive adventures in Isotope enrichment - but as it does not - one only sees things that are directly connected to the energy program appearing there.
There is considerable speculation among NPA about where exactly in the thorium utilisation train India will siphon off Pu needed for making more weapons. I feel such speculation is a waste of time - India cannot afford the luxury of a 1000 nuclear weapons sitting around. It needs to squeeze out every last drop of energy it can from what limited resources it has.
Hi,
A comment - perhaps relevant.
NPA opposition to the deal has centered on the notion that expanding India's civil nuclear sector will increase India's capacity for production of weapons grade fissile material.
India has indicated that it does not intend to use imported fuel to make weapons.
This poses a problem - ideally the West would like it if India returned the spent fuel rods to their control. However the West does not have the resources to economically store the spent fuel rods itself and no one in the West wants to be a place for India to dump its highly radioactive waste. No one in the West relishes the idea of highly radioactive spent fuel rods travelling merrily on ships across the "muslim waters" between India and their American destinations. The costs of this are prohibitive.
The Indian idea of reprocessing spent fuel rodes and making mixed oxide fuels poses is also unacceptable to the people in the West. The NPA for one - appear to be convinced that once the imported fuel enters India and India is allowed to reprocess it for MOX fuel bundles - there is a risk that the fuel will somehow be comingled with domestic supplies and claims to its imported content will be diluted significantly. This would leave the door open for India to make as many weapons as it wants.
There is therefore a desire to identify key technologies in India which could be used to recover weapons usable fissile material from spent fuels.
That is why CAT, BARC, IGCAR, RMP-Rattehali etc... are in the NPA crosshairs.
Hello,
I notice that Hon. Webmaster is now attempting to shelter behind Gen. Malik's questions about the impact on the deterrence specifics.
I can't answer Gen. Malik's questions - however... I feel Gen. Malik is unlikely to approve of the Hon. Webmaster's methods to seek answers to such questions.
I strongly suspect that the Gen. Malik would feel quite tarnished by any association with the Hon. Webmaster's choice of words.
It is best if Hon. Webmaster does not mix up his own actions with the needs of others.
Historically speaking our Armed Forces have had a very lively *internal* debate about the role of nuclear weapons in India's defence - however I find it very difficult to believe that the Indian Armed Forces had any role in the Hon. Webmaster's free-spirited behaviour.
Quote
Hello Anonymous,
Could you please tell me who the author of this piece is? because I do not recall seeing this one before - thank you.
Unquote
According to the "Prefatory Note" in the monograph, it is authored by an Experts Study Group comprising of Shri V. Raghuraman, Prof KR Padiyar, Shri MK Mittal under the Chairmanship of Prof R. Natarajan. The Study Group interacted with several members nominated by the DAE. The document has a Foreword by Prof PV Indiresan.
Dear Anonymous # N,
This is the part that made no sense:
"I presume LIS technique could also be used to separate Pu-241, Pu-242 etc. from Pu-239 (reactor grade Pu)."
You see, you took a harmless article about proposed advancement in energy research and introduced a weapon agenda for no good reason ...
considering your stance, I hope you did not mind my suspicion that you are some NPA or NPA wannabe ...
NPA is a fine profession ... some of my best friends are NPA ... so, no problems ...
it is just that once you put a few drinks into an NPA and get him to talk, there is only disgust that spills forth ... Cheers.
alok
it seems like such a long time ... so many moons ago, I had summarized the whole issue in 4 words ...
a trillion gallons of water under the bridge and I see that there may finally be realization in the tube-light minds ...
what 4 words, you ask?
"its the neutrons, stupid"
This is for maverick. So if DF didn't condemn the ravings of a lunatic, DF automatically supports him? Nice logic you got here. You and DF disagree, fine, accept that and move on. Your obsession with DF and NPA is getting repetitive.
- merlin
Maverick ,maybe its time to rename the blog to brbitchfest.blogspot.com/nukkad
Hi Anonymous,
Thank you, I had not read that report. Now, I know where to get a copy of the report if I need it.
I want to reiterate that the focus of DAE efforts in India remains on peaceful development of nuclear energy resources and people should not read weapons usability into everything DAE does.
I know young Indians want to feel strong and proud of their country - but this kind of behaviour - i.e. putting a weapons spin on everything - does not benifit the DAE in any way.
Most of the work at the DAE is related to development of energy technology and there are many foreign hands that seek to disrupt that work for their personal interests. Projecting random things at DAE as weapons projects hurts the interests of India.
Dear Merlin,
Yaar, on the forum - some random guy openly suggests on the forum that New Delhi be nuked using a bomb placed inside RAW HQ and that the present PM and members of the council of former PMs, and the National Guidance Council be brutally murdered.
And no one on the forum says a single thing to cut this person down.
Instead every poster favouring the GoI's position on the deal is relentlessly hassled and ridiculed by a very obviously moderator guided effort - into leaving the forum.
And now you come here and defend this terrorist as being hitherto unheard "voice of the people".
Boss - WTF am I supposed to infer from this?
Are you really giving me any choices?
There are three theories floating around -
1) The "Patriotic Majnun (Madman)"/"Lost His Mind" theory - popularised by Hon. Webmaster's friends himself.
2) The "Money Changed Hands" theory - doing rounds in parts of India.
3) The "Main-Bhi-Musharraf" theory - posited by the old hands at places like this.
And do you seriously expect me to not be disturbed when the language of Bhindranwale or Maqbool Bhat finds echoes on the forum?
As I told that anonymous in the other thread, I was getting ready to retire and make a blog about Maharashtrian cooking - now I am stuck watching this fucking mess!
So tell me boss - why haven't you raised an objection to this?
Do you personally approve of this kind of talk?
Dear PK,
If they keep the discussion civilised - then there will be no need for any "bitching".
Again - people are gathering here because the moderation effort has failed to contain the propensity for uncivilised debate.
The Hon. Webmaster has proceeded with this debate - there is too much unpredictability.
His reckless actions have damaged the credibility of the website - and no amount of patting-oneself-on-the-back after the Agni test - is not going to help if people advocating terrorist acts are allowed a free run on the forum.
As I said earlier - I don't think any one on the Agni team or the Men-at-Arms are going to endorse the Hon. Webmaster's peculiar strain of debate - nor will they come out and say anything he says makes sense.
With regards nuclear weapons development there is an unseen line that divides real knowledge and public commentary.
If you know something - you have no business to be talking about it in public - unless you have a specific permission from the competent authority.
Without a specific permission - your public statements have no credibility and can be challenged by anyone. If you are polite - you will be challenged politely - if you are impolite - you will be subjected to the exact same language you used to make your points.
Again - I don't think the GoI opposes debate - I strongly feel that democracy cannot function without debate - I only feel that the productivity of the debate declines if people talk in an uncivil manner.
Boss log Mav, Alok_n saars,
Ok, I went to the link provided and fell off laughing. So one kaun kiska posts a one liner link somewhere and its gets promptly ignored. I was half expecting a no holds bar, bring out the dusters type of exchange somewhere.
And this is what got your goat.
Comeon Saars. Isnt that cluthing at straws just to get ones daily dose of DF bashing.
rgds
Pradeep.
Hello Pradeep,
One has to pay attention to tiny little details.
Everything starts off as a one liner somewhere.
Recall RaviCV also started as a one liner about MMS being "a quisling".
I have said this before - this entire episode is far from over.
The Hon. Webmaster has bolded parts of Gen. Malik's article. One of the parts bolded refers to "other scientists" questioning the yeilds.
There has been scientific debate over the yeilds. This debate is natural to the scientific process and afaik the DAE accepts this as a necessary thing.
However - after 1998 - the Left Front and the NPA showed immense dexterity at interfering with scientific criticism of the tests. Prominent scientists under the influence of the Left and the NPA rushed to denounce the DAE as being a bunch of "Hindu Rambos".
In 1998 some scientists who on DAE's payroll - publicly accused the DAE leadership of being liars and betrayers of India's trust. At the time, the "scientific" opposition expressed anger over the manner in which the DAE had "secretly" conducted weapons research under the guise of a peaceful nuclear energy program.
Today, if you listen to the Hon. Webmaster's own comments on the issue of RaviCV - he often makes the suggestion that all this is some kind of "scientific" criticism of the bomb making effort. The Hon. Webmaster's friends have gone on record asking for "verification" of the "scientific claims of DAE".
It is also unclear to me if the BJP leadership actually shares the Hon. Webmaster's enthusiasm of comingling scientific debate with political debate. Clearly, the Left Front has made very poor choices in this regard - but I don't know if the BJP will succumb to the same failures.
It is unlikely that the Armed Forces of India have any interest going down this path.
The Hon. Webmaster and friends, associate themselves with the BJP and the Hon. Webmaster and his friends portray themselves as friends of the military in India.
It is unlikely such claims by the Hon. Webmaster and his friends will withstand any "scientific" scrutiny or "verification".
I agree with Pradeep. Just because some yahoo posted a link and everyone ignored it and no one said anything, means the forum supports that link? Come on, thats stooping low and clutching not just straws, paper ones at that! There is one "anon-in-india" that posts here that brands everyone that doesnt agree with him as a knickerwallah. I notice you didnt say anything to him... so by that same reasoning you support him? Seriously! some posts are best ignored for their foolishness...
Also, have you considered the reason why people visit this blog may be not because they dont like the debate there (well except for alok_n and faizi), but may want to hear the other side of the story?
I understand as per your words, you like the "chai biscoot" of the bureaucrats that you talk with and in preference/obligation/addiction or whatever for that chai biscoot you dont want anyone to criticize GoI. But expecting others to do the same, given the babooze pathetic record in all spheres of Indian life, from a simple water connection to supporting Indian interests is asking a bit much.
Hi Maverick
you are just clutching at straws here. i mean you are just being desparate. the ppl who run BRF are professional salaried types, they have full time jobs and have better things to do than monitor each and every line. the DF of the BRF has also seen flaming till the admin steps in and cleans it up, a few bans, a few warnings and what not.
even when u were there, such was the case. now you picking up some random BS amongst the thousands of posts filling BRF and using it to push your witchhunt against Arun S is shameless.
if you continue this, and folks on DF start a similar witchhunt against you, with ur name and sarcy comments in every posts, what r u going to do? nice try telling everyone about why google searches show u up
stop behaving like a jilted child and move on your life dude
brf can and will exist without you, high time u accepted the fact
ur not invaluable
Quote (alok_n)
considering your stance, I hope you did not mind my suspicion that you are some NPA or NPA wannabe ...
Unquote
I am no Non-Proliferation Ayatollah and will have no truck with them.
However, (unlike the owner of this blog) I am firmly against the present nuclear deal with the USA. I am against buying nuclear power plants from Russia, France, China or anybody else for that matter. For me, India should develop nuclear technology, as she has done all these years, with dignity and without bowing to pressures from all and sundry (both foreign and Indian). This does not automatically mean that improvements in project, personnel and funds management are not required - certainly I would like DAE and GoI to strive for and achieve better results, overcoming their shortcomings, one of which is projecting unrealistic targets for nuclear electricity generation, there by attempting to force the issue for import. I whole-heartedly agree with the view that "India's industrial R&D needs a partner in the GoI with greater flexibility and agility". But alas! compare Nehru-Bhabha combination with what we have been having in recent times! I firmly believe that achieving independence in high technology is high quality deterrence by itself; weapons capability would only add to it. By all means engage in "nuclear commerce", but on equal terms - not the way in which spin masters in Indian media define "nuclear commerce", India being treated as a begging buyer. When I go to buy (not on supplier's credit, mind you) a shirt, I would walk out of the shop if the shop keeper were to lay down conditions under which I am allowed to wear it!
Today, if you listen to the Hon. Webmaster's own comments on the issue of RaviCV - he often makes the suggestion that all this is some kind of "scientific" criticism of the bomb making effort. The Hon. Webmaster's friends have gone on record asking for "verification" of the "scientific claims of DAE".
dear sir, that is the claim by scicom in india itself. the scicom in india is no monolith playing for handdee
there are ppl worried about shakti, about this, about that and they want internal verification amongst their own peers which is a sensible and good idea
but u have been spinning it always like arunS and other posters wanted it to be some npa review
how shameless can u be maverick in constantly lying and misrepresenting word of ppl on df?
All I Can Think Is That Maverick is Utterly Jobless and Bored. Otherwise nobody Would Sit and Waste some time like this finding Arbit post on DF cursing somebody. That Fellow may be Banned already and nobody knows. But Maverick thinnks DF supports him. Funny talk here.
Ananya,
You have disdain for the GoI and so does this person.
You abuse the PM and so does this fellow who wants to kill the PM and members of the council of former PMs.
You indicate you don't approve of Sonia Gandhi, neither does this person - in fact he wants her tortured and killed.
This "crazy" person advocates nuking New Delhi - do you approve of him?
Until you distance yourself from him - given the over all convergence between his views and yours - what reason do I have to say that you feel differently?
When you come here and defend ignoring people like this - it just seems like this "crazy" person is simply saying things you don't have the guts to say yourself.
Every day on the forum, Indian Muslims are abused for not distancing themselves and their quam from the actions of radicalised groups. Every day on the forum, the self appointed rakshaks ask where to draw the line between Islamic piety and sympathizing with terrorism.
So how is it - that the preachers of this gospel - are forgetting its own words when it comes to people advocating nuclear terrorism in India?
When you come here and defend ignoring people like this - it just seems like this "crazy" person is simply saying things you don't have the guts to say yourself.
you have become a lying turd maverick
show one person above who is defending that person?
nobody on df is jobless enough to monitor each and every post and watch it
you know this but still you lie
how shameless can u be?
Every day on the forum, Indian Muslims are abused for not distancing themselves and their quam from the actions of radicalised groups. Every day on the forum, the self appointed rakshaks ask where to draw the line between Islamic piety and sympathizing with terrorism.
now islam khatrey main hain card
truly there is no gutter to which u will not stoop
i hope u never come back to df, because df lurker and poster shall justifiably spit at you and your lying
Hello Anonymous,
I told you - you were the Hon. Webmaster was the "dog", you were the "pee" and that I was the "wall" on which the dog was peeing.
I told you, I would be watching the forum from now on.
I told you, that I was disgusted by the way people tolerated abusive and nasty language against GoI.
If the bad behaviour on the forum stops - I will stop here also.
I can't understand why you can find the time to come here and vent against me instead of nailing that fellow who advocates the nuking RAW HQ.
What do I infer about your loyalties from this?
What is the explanation for this? the "dog" lost control over his "pee" now?
dear sainis, if i am the pee then ur the crap
because thats all u can eat and vomit on this blog
dont assume things about ppl
till now lurkers have lurked and not done bhanda phod
if we do bhanda phod then ur dhandha is phod
all i can see from ur behaviour is that ur completely crazy and u have become a paki in mind and spirit
like hali and PISS lady
u talk absolute bull$hit and accuse df of all sorts of things on stupid claims
some random post and some random stuff so attack on arun S
ur a complete weirdo man
as lurker i sent a stinker mail to DF adminullah for kicking u out as vijayJ
now i can see why they did it
!!!!ur bat$hit crazy!!!!!
Hello Anonymous,
The Scicom and any competent peers can speak publicly for themselves.
They don't need the Hon. Webmaster
to be their mouthpiece.
How the forum misses that fact I do not know.
The serious obsession with imagery is curious - the forum seems to have acquired a resident cult of photoshop worshippers.
People are forgetting that the Agni team does not need someone to give the world a "photoshop preview" or "prediction" of its achievements. Their achievements speak for themselves without any photoshop.
Hello Anonymous,
The Scicom and any competent peers can speak publicly for themselves.
They don't need the Hon. Webmaster
to be their mouthpiece.
How the forum misses that fact I do not know.
The serious obsession with imagery is curious - the forum seems to have acquired a resident cult of photoshop worshippers.
People are forgetting that the Agni team does not need someone to give the world a "photoshop preview" or "prediction" of its achievements. Their achievements speak for themselves without any photoshop.
then who are u to speak for goi
i think it is very clear ur just jealous of arunS
if u are half as good as him in prediction
then use this blog for that
instead all ur write is some confused nonsense
until goi comes out and speaks against brf ur nobody just like everybody
othewrise others will treat u da way u treat others
ur lucky so far df ppl have been gentlemen with u
what ur shameless in is that arunS is more than just images but can clearly explain with detail about every issue with aGNi and prithvi and rocket systems
u cant
ur not good enough
instead of being jealous improve urself
Dear Anonymous,
In this game when you are given a responsibility - it binds you.
If this responsibility of being the Hon. Webmaster's "pee" was too much for your competency - I *will* relieve you of the responsibility.
If the dog can't control his pee - or if the pee developes a mind of its own - I have to stop paying attention to it.
So pick your next words very carefully - my patience is wearing thin.
I am merely pointing out that the forum has become exceedingly permissive of abusive language when it comes to GoI.
This is restricting its ability to host useful debate.
I personally do not want any association with a forum where views like "nuke New Delhi", "kill all RAW employees", "kill MMS, ABV, LKA, SG" etc... go unchallenged. This is how terrorists talk and I do not approve of it.
I suggest you pick up your pen and write an email to the admin reminding them of the damage this causes to the site's image.
Hi Anonymous,
I do not speak for the GoI.
I speak for myself.
The sense of disgust is all mine and mine alone.
in archives i go thru at df i can see the huge difference between u -all hot air and attitude and arunS and ramana on other side
when abm test occurs u were full stating how it was no abm test but just two missile colliding with each other in planned merge test
rramana and arunS say no
but u kept pretend to know more
u say no radar was used all pretending to know more
u kept attacking other who say different
funny thing in archive 1 day later all post show report from drdo about how it was no merge but full abm test with radar
full flop only ur claims were
and still u say he is photoshop and u are expert
there need to be smiley in blogs for expressing "rolling eye"
now i 400% expect some bs answer from u about abm to disguise ur foolish behavior
ur just weird man
take some help
Hi Anonymous,
I do not speak for the GoI.
I speak for myself.
The sense of disgust is all mine and mine alone.
ha ha ha ha
then how do u know arunS sense of disgust is scicoms and not his alone
one standard for u
another std for df
ur a joke man
in df in vijayj u made me and all lurker belive u were secret person from goi
all hints and pretend to speak for goi
in this website only you have made many threats of goi thinking like this about df and more
always pretending u are
Dear Anonymous,
In this game when you are given a responsibility - it binds you.
dont run away
fun is just now
If this responsibility of being the Hon. Webmaster's "pee" was too much for your competency - I *will* relieve you of the responsibility.
run run run
only idiot would be thinking that arunS cares about blog and i am writing here and ur doing track 2 diplomacee
what dodo man u are
i just was thinking about why ur so weird and here i got ur so called messahe and i am on the floor laffin
what a joke man
If the dog can't control his pee - or if the pee developes a mind of its own - I have to stop paying attention to it.
So pick your next words very carefully - my patience is wearing thin.
so u cannot take all treatment u like using on others hain
small slaps and u go running away
stop speaking crap and eating and vomiting crap and u will not be cover with crap
I am merely pointing out that the forum has become exceedingly permissive of abusive language when it comes to GoI.
wtf are u to bother
are u GOI
This is restricting its ability to host useful debate.
whose caring about u and what u think
do u pay for df
I personally do not want any association with a forum where views like "nuke New Delhi", "kill all RAW employees", "kill MMS, ABV, LKA, SG" etc... go unchallenged. This is how terrorists talk and I do not approve of it.
ur no longer with df
they kikced u out
why r u bothered
I suggest you pick up your pen and write an email to the admin reminding them of the damage this causes to the site's image.
u carry ur own water
ur big problem is u need lota carrying and u cant carry it coz u have no bravery
Hello Anonymous,
The Hon. Webmaster has been going around parading RaviCV as his inside source about the 1998 tests. The emails of RaviCV's claims - his presence at a meeting with the PM and the bulk of the bomb team after Shakti etc... these have lent credibility to ideas that he knew what he was talking about. Most of this credibility has happened because Hon. Webmaster chose to believe RaviCV.
There does not appear to have been any verification of RaviCV's claims and from the reactions of the rest of the forum admin on the forum itself - it is obvious the Hon. Webmaster never shared any information he recieved through RaviCV with anyone else.
So from your enthusiastic and unrelenting support for this kind of language - I take it the idea of nuking New Delhi and murdering the PM seems fine to you?
Now my friend - what does this say about you?
Is there a way to ignore this anonymous ranting pain in the neck? IMO, he is the biggest pussy in all of this.
The Hon. Webmaster has been going around parading RaviCV as his inside source about the 1998 tests. The emails of RaviCV's claims - his presence at a meeting with the PM and the bulk of the bomb team after Shakti etc... these have lent credibility to ideas that he knew what he was talking about. Most of this credibility has happened because Hon. Webmaster chose to believe RaviCV.
There does not appear to have been any verification of RaviCV's claims and from the reactions of the rest of the forum admin on the forum itself - it is obvious the Hon. Webmaster never shared any information he recieved through RaviCV with anyone else.
bull$hit
only fellow who is going on and on about ravi fellow is U
after u went crazy ur chamcha ldev went on df to accuse arunS of raviCV and asked for mails
arunS said nothing doing
till then zero claim of Ravi and after that also zero claim of ravi from arunS
first and last time i heard of ravi cv is here where u are fully on about npa and raviCV
only u are spreading ravi
it is ur crazy theory and u have zero proof
so stop lying
So from your enthusiastic and unrelenting support for this kind of language - I take it the idea of nuking New Delhi and murdering the PM seems fine to you?
more crap from u sainis
recently in austria some fellow violated his daughter and had kids
u have said nothing about it
so i take it for granted that u are also supporting violating ur own daughter and having kids with her
ur own logic
in this blog on internet i cant see anything about jaipur blast
1. it shows ur priority
2. by ur logic it also show u support jaipur blast and ur kind of person whom all this seems fine to
what bullshit tricks u try
if there is gutter level u are reaching new level in ur attempt to find some argument point
Dear Anonymous,
If I am irrelevant to the forum - then stop visiting my blog and just ignore me.
You clearly seem to be happy to ignore this "satish chandra" person who advocates using nukes on New Delhi.
So you can do the same to me.
The manner in which you choose to spend all this time "exposing" me and absuing me - but how you completely pretend that this "satish chandra" blog does not exist... seems to suggest that you secretly sympathise with the kinds of nuclear terrorism this "satish chandra" person seems to advocate.
If I am not irrelevant.
And you want me to take your views about the Hon. Webmaster seriously - then it cuts both ways - you have to take my views seriously.
In my view - I do not wish to associate with nuclear terrorism sympathisers.
Is there a way to ignore this anonymous ranting pain in the neck? IMO, he is the biggest pussy in all of this.
chutiyas like u always hate it when somebody replies 2 them
live with it buddy
idiot ur also anonymos
Hello Anonymous,
Me and a dozen or so other people have an email from Hon. Webmaster saying that he has information from RaviCV that is "too hot" to disseminate over email.
The language used by Hon. Webmaster echoed the words used by RaviCV about RC etal..
That is why I feel this all goes back to Ravi CV.
What LDev did/did not do - has little to do with me. From what I understand he tried to gain an independent appraisal of the situation and he accepted my point that the debate has to be civilised for it to be productive.
Lets face it - Ldev understood - unlike you- that not everyone wants to be the 'dog's pee' in the debate. There is more to debate than a dog peeing on the wall - a model you seem keen to force on this entire process.
The rest of us want to have a civilised debate about nuclear issues in India.
Ordinary people like me do not like the views of sympathisers of nuclear terrorism. Arre bhai, we Indians are a mild tea drinking people.
The manner in which you choose to spend all this time "exposing" me and absuing me - but how you completely pretend that this "satish chandra" blog does not exist... seems to suggest that you secretly sympathise with the kinds of nuclear terrorism this "satish chandra" person seems to advocate.
sainis u dumb idiot
there are stupid blog run by pakis
run by ulfa shulfa pulfa
wtf cares
some idiot on internet ranting called satish chandra
if he tries to become 2 big goi will send chacha maama to his place and put him in jail
as if DF owns blogspot u FOOL
obviosly since u havent posted anything about austrian guy ur JUST LIKE HIM and secretly sympathise with him
but how you completely pretend that this austrian guy does not exist... seems to suggest that you secretly sympathise with the kinds of personal terrorism this "austrian" person seems to advocate
but how you completely pretend that this problem of indian terrorism from IM does not exist... seems to suggest that you secretly sympathise with the kinds of IM terrorism "ISI" person seems to advocate
UR OWN TRICKS ON U
ENJOYYYYYYYYY!!!
WHY DONT U MAIL DF AND ASK THEM TO REMOVE THE POST
BUT U WONT COZ U WANT OTHER TO CARRY UR LOTA
USELESS TRICKS
With regards the Jaipur blasts,
I am awaiting a statement by the DGP sahab which indicates what the COD's investigation has found, when it comes out and SAAG and SATP have its say - I will say what comes to my mind.
Please go back into the posts here and see - I have **never** spoken before the DGP of the affected area or SAAG and SATP has spoken publicly.
It is common etiquette I am subscribing to.
I keep my views to myself until the competent authority speaks first.
Dear Anonymous,
What "austrian" guy are you referring to?
I have no knowledge of such a person.
Please point out the article to me and I will respond to it.
Until I see it - I can't comment on it.
Me and a dozen or so other people have an email from Hon. Webmaster saying that he has information from RaviCV that is "too hot" to disseminate over email.
UR WORD against his
why shud we trust u
u have been banned from DF
u have lied before
see ur attempt to bring in some BS blogspot site
what proof do u have
go ahead and show us email
The language used by Hon. Webmaster echoed the words used by RaviCV about RC etal..
That is why I feel this all goes back to Ravi CV.
he said she said
where is evidence
What LDev did/did not do - has little to do with me. From what I understand he tried to gain an independent appraisal of the situation and he accepted my point that the debate has to be civilised for it to be productive.
nice joke
he carried ur lota for u
coz u cant show face on DF
Lets face it - Ldev understood - unlike you- that not everyone wants to be the 'dog's pee' in the debate. There is more to debate than a dog peeing on the wall - a model you seem keen to force on this entire process.
ur the dog
and ldev was ur pee
df adminullah washed him off the wall
wall = df
good attempt
The rest of us want to have a civilised debate about nuclear issues in India.
ur anything but civilized
calling names in high language is not civilized
Ordinary people like me do not like the views of sympathisers of nuclear terrorism. Arre bhai, we Indians are a mild tea drinking people
who is we
ur anything but indian
ur becoming more more like mazari hali
same logic
ur entire blogspot thing is masterpice of pakiness
congratluations
Dear Anonymous,
What "austrian" guy are you referring to?
I have no knowledge of such a person.
Please point out the article to me and I will respond to it.
Until I see it - I can't comment on it.
see when something like this appears
and u claim no knowledge
obviously u secretly sympathise with it
how is it that u cud have missed it hain
if df can somehow not miss one lunatic post
then how can u claim to miss somehting that is all over internet, tv and paper
so u have known it and not responded
so u secretly sympathise with the person and u like him
so u 2 must be in support of violating ur own daughter and having kids
ur own logic
nice, naa?
I picture a crazy guy sitting in some basement frothing at the mouth and typing away with a serious case of jealousy and paranoia combined. Scary!!
With regards the Jaipur blasts,
I am awaiting a statement by the DGP sahab which indicates what the COD's investigation has found, when it comes out and SAAG and SATP have its say - I will say what comes to my mind.
Please go back into the posts here and see - I have **never** spoken before the DGP of the affected area or SAAG and SATP has spoken publicly.
It is common etiquette I am subscribing to.
I keep my views to myself until the competent authority speaks first.
oh so why havent u spoken about arbit stuff in chennai or karnatak or UP, hain?
onbviously since u missed "x" murder, "y" assault u must secretly be in approval of all crimes u havent commented on
if everyone on df is guilty for not seeing some arbit post in thousand post per day then ur also guilty by same logic
u must obviously sympathise with all criminal and murderer in india since u have not commented
I picture a crazy guy sitting in some basement frothing at the mouth and typing away with a serious case of jealousy and paranoia combined. Scary!!
u look good in the mirror, babe
have u tried help? u need it!
i am having fun here showing maverick value of his 400% honest tactics
if u chamchas feel bad then take isabgol
Dear Anonymous,
Arre bhai - there are many other recipents to these emails. At least one other person who was on this list posts here regularly.
I have proof enough to satisfy me - whether it is enough for you or not I don't know.
You live in a bewildering world where high words are "insults" and abuses are free speech.
I tend to save up every email I get - my email archive goes a long ways back.
If you are suggesting that Hon. Webmaster never had any contact with RaviCV, then that is a stretch that you will find few willing to believe.
I suggest you concieve of some new way to put a brave face on this mess.
And please, if you do not sympathise with "satish chandra"'s views on nuclear terrorism in India - please email the admin about this. Let them take the appropriate action.
If you do sympathise with "satish chandra" then do let me know so that I know where you stand.
"We" my dear friend refers to me and my tapeworm - with apologies to GBS.
Hello Anonymous,
Please bring the specific incident to my attention, and I will tell you what my views are.
I have brough "satish chandra" person's view to your notice and I have told you that this view has gone unchallenged on the forum.
Both things you can verify for yourself.
Now tell me where you stand on this.
Do you approve of this person's view?
If not have you indicated your displeasure to the forum admin?
If you can ignore Satish Chandra whenever he says New Delhi should be nuked, why can't you ignore me when I say the forum standards have fallen?
Why is it that you react with greater intensity to my suggestion of falling standards on the forum than you do to the Satish Chandra - nuke Delhi suggestion?
Dear Anonymous,
Oh that austrian guy- now I get which one you are talking about.
For the record I don't approve of what he did.
I didn't comment on it because I did not see how it pertained to India.
This "Satish Chander" person seems to talk specifically about nuking Delhi.
I have friends who live in Delhi.
I can't take a positive view of such talk.
That is why I am asking you where you stand on this and how it is that a forum that calls itself "Bharat Rakshak" can let someone like this post there.
And that is why I ask if the forum secretly endorses "satish chandra"'s views?
Arre bhai - there are many other recipents to these emails. At least one other person who was on this list posts here regularly.
I have proof enough to satisfy me - whether it is enough for you or not I don't know.
if ur making claims to public than u need public evidence
what point in hiding now
show us the emails
or conclusion = ur all hot air
You live in a bewildering world where high words are "insults" and abuses are free speech.
lol!
all i said is that u make insults using some fancy language and then think ur very smart and civilized
all this is paki behaviour
ur pakiness flies above our head
better be direct than paki and then claim 2 be victim
I tend to save up every email I get - my email archive goes a long ways back.
then show it
or more hot air from u?
If you are suggesting that Hon. Webmaster never had any contact with RaviCV, then that is a stretch that you will find few willing to believe.
having contact is not = being told xyz by raviCV
ur claims are more and more joke
give us proof
I suggest you concieve of some new way to put a brave face on this mess.
brave face is being put by u
ur not on DF
Ur making a scene
when junta says "proof"
u say "I AM MAVERICK"
rajni movies would like u man
And please, if you do not sympathise with "satish chandra"'s views on nuclear terrorism in India - please email the admin about this. Let them take the appropriate action.
WHY HAVENT YOU MAILED??
YOU KNEW ABOUT THIS AND STILL U DIDNT MAIL?
Obviously u support that fellow
If you do sympathise with "satish chandra" then do let me know so that I know where you stand.
i dont like that joker
i am not like u
why didnt u mail df?
"We" my dear friend refers to me and my tapeworm - with apologies to GBS.
calling tapework paki is blow to their hand d
but ur definitely moving in mazari logic now in this bunch of post
Oh that austrian guy- now I get which one you are talking about.
For the record I don't approve of what he did.
so u knew but didnt comment?
so u must have obviously sympathised with him and secretly approved
of course now u claim different
ur own logic
Please bring the specific incident to my attention, and I will tell you what my views are.
I have brough "satish chandra" person's view to your notice and I have told you that this view has gone unchallenged on the forum.
Both things you can verify for yourself.
Now tell me where you stand on this.
Do you approve of this person's view?
If not have you indicated your displeasure to the forum admin?
If you can ignore Satish Chandra whenever he says New Delhi should be nuked, why can't you ignore me when I say the forum standards have fallen?
Why is it that you react with greater intensity to my suggestion of falling standards on the forum than you do to the Satish Chandra - nuke Delhi suggestion?
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
if i mail DF admin i do it on own time
i do it for own outrage
have u done it?
no
so YOU support satishchandra fellow
obviously you must be in cooperation with him
ur own logic
maverick
have u stopped beating ur wife???
what a fool ur making of urself by pulling such silly stunt man
i am having fun here showing maverick value of his 400% honest tactics
And I am having fun showing you how silly you look in your attempts. 400% trust me on this.
Very interesting scatalogical exchange between the gentlemen here, and by golly, it beats BRF for sure!! Way more interesting!!
Dear Anonymous, may I trouble you for your ABM comments, I didnt quite get them!
Thanks in advance,
Yet another anon
And I am having fun showing you how silly you look in your attempts. 400% trust me on this.
11:35 AM
if taking isabgol and dumping in every post to prove ur number 1 chamcha is victory ...ur victorious!!
Sir, Look up scatalogical in a dictionary and you will gain in self-awareness. That would be Victory! It is not scatter-logical.
Heigh Ho!
An obviously non-n00b DFite who features the vocabulary and communication protocol of a Catalan fishwife. Bhat a contradiction ij thees onlee? Is our friend a long timer who's going to great lengths to cover his radar profile and safely "drown" this board in bile and bilge?
Anyway Mav', it's been a short and bumpy ride from "The Hermit" to "Mazari-Hali-Paki", eh? :)
-Anand K
Is our friend a long timer who's going to great lengths to cover his radar profile and safely "drown" this board in bile and bilge?
B-I-N-G-O!
Dear Anonymous,
Writing here appears to be a more effective way of registering complaints with regards to the forum as far as I am concerned. Somehow they don't listen to me when I write.
Can you explain to me how the austrian case affects India's security in the context of this nuclear deal?
I am not going to make the emails public until asked by the competent authority in India.
I can see how this would make you think I am lying about this but I am afraid that is best thing for now.
Honestly, I don't know what you will gain by seeing the emails anyway as you don't have the ability to confirm that the emails are real.
Only the competent authority will be able verify that the information contained in the email is the same as that stored on servers listed in the header file. So even if I release the email, there will be no way for you to know if it is real. You simply do not have the resources to access the servers that the mail travelled by.
This was my problem with the Hon. Webmaster's approach to this as well. He was taking things this person was saying at face value, with no clear verification scheme in mind. The biggest verification was the alleged meeting with Dr. Lawande and Dr. Baldev Raj. This was the only thing that could be verified by someone on the forum. The matter should have simply been referred to people in India at that point. I am completely bewildered by why Hon. Webmaster chose to go ahead with the contact and then to actually believe anything RaviCV said.
Heigh Ho!
An obviously non-n00b DFite who features the vocabulary and communication protocol of a Catalan fishwife. Bhat a contradiction ij thees onlee? Is our friend a long timer who's going to great lengths to cover his radar profile and safely "drown" this board in bile and bilge?
i have already intro'ed myself anandk.
look in prvs post
and i dont give a shut for bans or no bans if ur thrtning me
i have been ip banned on df 1nce after i called jassoo mithaiwaalah a chutiya for his mithai buisness in afghan
then grt admnullah banned for telling some pj and he banned me rajivg and fanne when we got po'ed at calvin
so lurk onlee
i dont mind maverick opinion on arunS but this photoshp and blogspot business is bad joke
its plain dirty tactics to attack opponent
i am sorry for bad grmar and english but i dont have time to do long writing in careful paras
so threatn me but i dont give damn if u ban me
Hello Anonymous,
Hon. Webmaster is *not* my opponent.
I simply feel he is misguided by the blind faith he put in RaviCV's unverifiable utterances.
My opponent is the culture of permissiveness that taken hold on the forum where it is considered okay to address GoI in terms more suitable for a terrorist!
Am I angry with Hon. Webmaster? yes most certainly, purely because he chose to use unnecessarily abusive language to frame what were perfectly valid points about the lack of *proven* yeilds exceeding 100kT in India's capabilities.
The DAE has never claimed that it actually demonstrated at >100 kT yeild in 1998. It stated that it demonstrated a 40-50kT yeild. This statement itself is sufficient grounds for justifying further tests should the need arise.
I don't see where unverifiable "design-specific" information about the S1 -"thermonuclear" stage belongs in this debate.
You can easily make your point for more testing without all that stuff and certainly without hurling abuses at the PMO or the DAE.
*YES* I know it was hurtful of me to use the word "photoshopper". I know that really hurts but I was simply pointing out what damage mere words can do.
If the term "photoshopper" hurts this badly, you can imagine how much some of the words the Hon. Webmaster used might have hurt people.
Today we have this "satish chandra" fellow suggesting that a nuke be used on RAW HQ in New Delhi and that the PM be assasinated.
Is it only me here who thinks this is the way terrorists talk?
You have spent the last ten posts here attacking me - why is it that you don't lift a finger to criticise "satish chandra" or the permissive attitude on the forum that allows this kind of thing to fly under the radar?
hi maverick
i am at work now so will be not long
ok,
first of all there is much anger against goi
u can say this is bad and df shud be more policing and strict about this but there is anger so there will be loose talk
and adminullahs will ban only they get to know
and they have banned no? so what is ur problem?
even i was banned before
second it is ur biggest assumption that ravicv is arunS source or that he is only one
i can make out he knows more but is not telling if u see crypitc post on DF
or i may be BSing and speculating and he doesnt know
but even u do not rite?
all ur depending on is early talk
AND ur calling names
next thing is this he shudnt call names to pmo or dae but he is way he is and ur way ur why do u think u can make whole world like u?
also goi always said hydrogen bomb i dont believ ur arguements that there was no h bomb ur just arguing for sake of arguing
ok this satish chader fellow is mentally distubed why shud i or u bother
is india dead country without speech and freedom of speeach that we dont allow idiots to show they are idiots?
he is going so far to give his address and place which shows he is mad and useless
ur just making a big fuss for arguements sake so i gave u back in ur way
and dont make us all fools ok?
u know that nobody on brf even bothered over some stupid 1 line post to some blog site so nobody commented
ur just making all this claim to make it appear df has bad standard
if u care so much u wud mail df admin and tell about post
why ask other to do what u can do urself
also he writes liek shit
it is clear mental sickness
i am more angry at wide publicity newsmags like times of islamabad whose comment make opinion of everyone change
who cares about arbit blogsite man
if u google there will be blogs of ulfa shulfa and paki chini also
who cares
let them bark barking dogs dont bite
over and out
Dear Anonymous,
Whatever RaviCV communicated to the Hon. Webmaster, he left an impenetrable fog in his wake.
Though nothing RaviCV says can be verified, everything has become extremely cryptic after he appeared on the scene.
In this fog - a very abusive and nasty language has taken hold on the forum whenever it comes discussing GoI.
The amount of loose talk is damaging the ability to have a productive debate.
This Satish Chandra is an example where this is all going if people don't start acting responsibly.
okkkk u cud say that in beginning no
but admins will def ban if somebody go so far
i am honest i will tell u honestly that i curse goi but i feel bad next day coz i feel i lost temper
so best for me to lurk coz i get banned and i dont want ipban
ok but admins def ban anyone who curse goi 2 much dude
i dont know why u keep thinking that they dont ban
if they cud ban my a$$ for calling jassoo mithaiwaalah ******** they ban others more seriously
Spy vs Spy could learn a thing or two from anonymous vs anonymous ...
anyway, here is something for the anonymous dude who responded to my critique that now seems like a million posts ago ...
you can not compare nuclear trade to "buying a shirt" or whatever you did ...
it is closer to buying a high performance fighter aircraft ... those sales come with strings and not everything is for sale ...
if you claim, "India should refuse to buy reactors and develop its own", what you are comparing it to is this: "India should stop buying fighter airplanes and just develop the LCA" ...
this silliness about civilian nuclear agreement was meant for the the talking heads and/or NPA ... there is NO SUCH THING ... all nuclear tech is conceivably dual-use ... if not, why would Iran be in a soup right now? ...
so, please give up some naive notions of "huff and a puff and there I go" ... these are *real* matters that need *real answers* ...
when will the DF luminaries get off their high horses and post something positive rather than negating every move by seeing demons in every corner?
honestly, I can not recall when a move by GOI was welcomed by the DF Elite ... if these guys are so smart, why can't they propose some steps and face the music ... it is soooooooooooooo easy to be a naysayer, no?
For example, when it comes to funding for Uranium mining, they are happy to go back to like 1992 or something and find a way to blame MMS ... in the same thread, if someone asks about how come the contact with Niger or wherever had to wait until now, none of these luminaries jump up and down and say: " IT WAS BECAUSE ABV FUCKED UP AND DELIBERATELY AVOIDED DEALING WITH NIGER BECAUSE HE IS AN AMERICAN SPY" or some such nonsense ...
tells you a lot about the quality of debate on DF, don't it?
Hain, ananymous-ji?
as for RaviCV, as I had mentioned, I got to see some of it ...
since so much has been said, I may as well elaborate ...
the dude came across as a 3rd or 4th tier player who was given the task of simulating some design or the other ...
mind you, there is no way to ascertain that he was simulating THE DESIGN ... he was just a cog who thought he ran the wheel ...
for all we know, he was running the DECOY design ...
given his behavior later on, he would be the ideal decoy, wouldn't he?
his knowledge was peripheral - this was clear to me from readng his language ...
so, what should have been done with this dude?
my take was to advise everyone to cease communication, delete all posts and forget all about it ...
was that advice followed? I don't know ...
so, from where I stand, all of this is a Tsunami in a Kullahd ...
Wow,
I have been away two days and lookit, what happened!!!. I dont think the annoymous who is spouting bile needs to be responded to.
Alok_N, I happened to bump into a Christine G who used to be a Christine S, in my neck of woods recently. Maybe you have seen her around in your parts. Quite a looker and a brain too - beauty and brains :) I am not putting her full name down here, as it shows up on google. Something for you to puzzle over till later!!
Something for you to puzzle over till later!!"
Hi ldev,
I do not fancy such puzzles ...
regardless of the issue, I can easily design/define a dozen confounding "issues" ...
it is all bogus ...
about time we all agreed to be pointless individuals who have way too much time to worry about issues over which we have no control whatsoever ...
that is the truth, period ...
@@ about time we all agreed to be pointless individuals who have way too much time to worry about issues over which we have no control whatsoever ...
And thats why I have not being posting comments ;-)
Sudeep
Dear Anonymous,
With regards this RaviCV person, we have all been thrown for a complete loop.
Alok N has attempted to explain this indirectly - but it may be best if I put it more plainly.
Usually in an high energy physics experiment, you have a beam and a target and then you have an array of detectors situated around the event site. Whenever the beam is turned on - the accelerated particles in the beam strike the target and produce exotic conditions that do not exist in normal matter. Such collisions create a spray of nuclear fragments which strike the detectors surrounding the target.
In order to figure out the details of the collision - data collected from various sets of detectors has to be carefully reconciled and usually this requires a really complicated audit of each detector and its performance.
In any high energy physics experiment - there is an immensely involved theoretical framework to describe what sorts of fragments will be created in a collision.
Usually theories of the physics underlying a collision are tested using computer simulations. People who do these simulations usually act and talk like they know what is going to happen when the beam collides with the target. However, at the end of the day - everything they say is just the result of a simulation - which could be wrong or right.
At the end of the day - every simulation only very delicately mirrors the experimental conditions and it is a highly involved and time consuming task to reconcile the results of the simulation with experimental signatures obtained from the detector.
Typically - this sort of work takes many many years at places like CERN or Brookhaven or Fermi lab etc... Often times promising theories of what really happened are rejected by new suggestions that emerge in hindsight.
In each experiment - the physicists charged reconciling the results of the experiment to the results of the simulation are hostage to the amount of time the beam is up and running. The longer the beam stays on - the more accurate is the statistical sampling of the collision processes. Reconciling theory and experiments with with low statistical data require decades of experience in this kind of work and no amount of computer modelling is a substitute for experience in picking out good physics.
In general, anyone can poke holes in the detection scheme, the simulation results, and the data analysis. That is easy to do - the hard part is to suggest viable alternatives to interpret the data or suggest a way to use the existing experimental setup to gain insight into the underlying physics.
Usually making that kind of commentary requires a lot of experience and exposure to experimental physics and someone who does a PhD in theoretical physics does not necessarily *automatically* have the background needed for this kind of work.
Please understand a kid in 1st standard will tell you - "you need to do this experiment again" or "you need a bigger accelerator" etc... but this does not constitute a scientific peer review of any kind.
Ultimately I feel a nuclear test most analogous to an HEP accelerator experiment where the beam can only be turned on intermittently due to cost issues and where only a limited number of people have access to all the information needed to interpret the results fully.
In any lab there are usually as many theories of the experiment as there are physicists willing to sit over a cup of coffee. This is the hallmark of a good lab - motivated people indulging in spirited discussion. It is all too easy for scientists in their excitement to demand more beam time and more detectors but ultimately the big boss of the lab has to reconcile the costs of this kind of stuff to the needs of the political system. That is the Boss's job description.
RaviCV made the claim that he was one of the people who knew everything. This claim was not verified.
Until it is verified this kind of talk has no credibility and should not form the basis of opinion.
Sans RaviCV's claim of credibility - the only sources of the "fizzle" hypothesis are NPA mouthpieces with vested interests and all this information has to be junked as suspect from the start.
Hello Sudeep,
We are all privileged in our powerlessness. Might as well enjoy that privilege responsibly.
@'Photoshopper' says -
2. I am in no way influenced by RaviCV, and make my own decisions. Further, your asking me to release hypothetical personal correspondences between me and RaviCV constitutes an intrusion upon my personal privacy, dont try that again, you will get a stinging rebuke.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=3960&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=40
+++++++++++++++++++
@maverick says
"Arre bhai - there are many other recipents to these emails. At least one other person who was on this list posts here regularly.
I have proof enough to satisfy me - whether it is enough for you or not I don't know. "
------------------------------------
So whats holding you back? as you've said RaviCV is unreliable and has cast a spell on the 'Photoshopper' aka todays *Hon. Webmaster*, which he denied.
So please go ahead and publish the mails. Lets see who is telling the truth - and who is indulging in innuendo and FUD. I know the answer. But will wait for your reply which im hoping would be devoid of the characteristic dramabaazi.
Maverickji as a regular reader of this blog,would request to return back to the regular chai biskoot sessions ,far more important things are happening in this world.
Us DCH are devoid of your measured opinion.
Hon Webmaster is a good guy with opinions at the other end of spectrum,maybe this is best resolved via track 2 WKK diplomacy and spare us lesser mortals the scrolling and filtering.
Regards
Dear Anonymous,
How will you know that the email I publish will be true?
Do you have access to the email servers in the emails header files? Can you compare the email text to copies of the email stored on those intermediate servers?
If you have all those resources - you won't need me to reveal those emails - you will be able to access the copies of my emails from the servers where they are stored.
Without that anything "released" here is simply more unverifiable nonsense.
As far as ordinary people are interested in verifiable stuff for the debate - the only verifiable aspect of this is the testimony of people who were on the recipient list of the "too hot" email - and people who saw the language that RaviCV used to talk about DAE and the PM on the forum - they can confirm my story about the influence that RaviCV had on the Hon. Webmaster.
That is the best I can do for you.
I am sorry if that is not enough.
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