Where should the lines be drawn on internet discussions of strategic affairs?
Dear Friends,I have been asked to summarise my views on this topic by an old friend.
What I present here is my opinion alone and not that of anyone I may or may not know.
I feel internet debates tend to get very heated and it is possible for people to lose sight of important things. In the recent fiasco on the forum, we have had a small taste of the kinds of problems this can cause. With this incident in the background and I want to say something that people can remember going into the future.
I think any public discussions which use/provoke the use of unsourced information or invite speculation or comments from non-specialists about the detailed functioning of a nuclear, biological, or chemical device, warhead or delivery system are detrimental to India's national interests.
I say this because I believe such discussions are bad because :
1) they promote personal attacks on the scientists in India,
2) they delve into issues where the GoI cannot respond due to proliferation sensitivity and national security issues, and
3) they make it look like Indian techies in the US are secretly learning how to build a nuclear bomb while dreaming of challenging the US with it.
Recently on the forum, unsourced information was used to attack the credibility of the Indian scientists who made the bomb. While we have no answers to "why this was done" - we do know that this generated tremendous friction inside the forum. A barrage of personal insults and degrading language was used to address the DAE, the PMO and the members of the National Guidance Council and an attempt was made to assault the credibility of the scientists who worked on the bomb in India.
Not long after this assault, a group of people tried to tease out details about India's nuclear options with very leading discussions on the issue of non-explosive testing and weapons related computer simulations.
After watching a number of posters on the forum doing the NPA's work for them, we saw a large number of Indian technolgists talking about knowledge they had gleaned while in the US, about the workings of a WMD and all the while there were a number of posters who simultaneously talked about "360 degree deterrence" and "Agni Long Range". These posters appeared to be completely oblivious to the message such a discussion was sending - that Indian techies in the US on various pretexts were "figuring" out how make big bombs that challenged the US . The implications of such talk for thousands of Indians earning a living in the science and technology sector in the US was completely ignored by irresponsible forum leaders and excitable posters who all claimed to be well-meaning Indians.
Frankly, as an Indian, I found this situation disgusting and shameful.
I attribute the bulk of this mess to a moderation failure on the forum, specifically, the moderation team failed to grasp the damage that this kind of thing does to India's national interests and there appeared to be a lack of checks and balances inside the forum to deal with situations arising from an administrator acting in an imbalanced fashion.
Moderation failures of this kind greatly diminish the forum's value as a place for constructive debate.
I do not know what the future holds. I hope we learn from this mistake - and come up with better ways of debating our national interest.
posted by maverick @ 11:07 AM
589 Comments:
Mav,
Just curious -- has it ever crossed your min that THW (The Honourable Webmaster)is the new Ravi Rikhye? Not that they are the same person, I hasten to add, but that they play (or have played) somewhat similar roles in bashing India/GoI.
The thing is, THW is a hundred times more contentious and disruptive than RR ever was.
Watch the drama of headless chickens on the forum. There is a lone voice of reason. But the response of the forum is "Rangudu don't be shrill".
LOL, that's right. Rangudu has been back on the forum only a couple of weeks and already he's being vilified. Acharya accuses him of being a US lobbyist!! I thought that was against the spirit of the new forum -- no personal attacks etc.
Ah well, let's see what happens.
LOL, indeed! ... DF has spoken ... and Rangudu is the enemy ... scratch that up as a double LOL ...
:-))))
Ramana is displaying his connection to Uncle's missile program.
Alok, here's another LOL. Did you notice that your friend the Truth-Seeker Dude called for a 10MT test, so that "even if it fizzles, we'll get at least a 1MT result. I can rest easy with a 1MT result".
Hi Dilbert,
I think ultimately "journalistic" instincts drive people to believe that they are smarter than the GoI.
Dear Anonymous,
I suspect that meeting be MEA Mantri and the USIBC sent a very strong message that the business community was losing patience with the extended drama.
Ultimately every politician - whether in India or US relies on having the business community retain interest otherwise the "gravy train" will shut down and no one wants that.
So as Sahab has indicated, it is time to move things ahead.
I have an open mind, I want to hear what the arguments posed in favour of LWR (over PHWR) are going to be.
Alok N,
I think there is a bunch of people on the forum who are completely obsessed with a stabbed-in-the-back fantasy. Until and unless they prove that somehow Mother India was publicly raped in every orfice by somebody - they can't can get a good night's sleep.
I used to pity such people - but now I am fresh out (of pity)- I am going to completely ignore them and taking a page out of the doctor's book, I am going to wait for them to bore themselves to death by talking like that.
yes, pity has outlived its value ...
our conspiracy theorist-in-chief is an ardent fan of jyotishi ...
he does not see the dichotomy of believing in that versus believing in nuclear physics ...
why can't he just say that Indian "deterrent" will be based on predicting all missile attacks on India through jyotishi? ...
how much pity indeed can one have for such jokers?
Are you giving BR much more credit than it deserves? It is really nothing more than a tertiary source of information for anybody with an interest in all things Indian. Some of the threads have verged on the excellent, some have been idiotic at best. In that it is no different from the Internet as a whole.At the end of the day, who really cares if a bunch of amateurs (even gifted amateurs)go and speculate about things which none of them have personally experienced. As for their vilification of the current PM and assorted others, it is the sign of a healthy democracy, as is their skepticism of the Government of India official line.Some of the contributers here sound like whiners, who are still sulking about the perceived unfairness of their treatment in the other forum.
BTW - I am pro-deal - although it has serious flaws.
Why not just concentrate on putting forward your perspectives and forget about the other guys?
Who's Sahab?
Dilbert,
I missed that gem ... but, hey, why not carry a good thing forward? ...
let's seek a 100,000 GigaTon bum so that even if it fizzles, we will have a 10,000 GigaTon dhamaka ...
:)
"Why not just concentrate on putting forward your perspectives and forget about the other guys?"
that has zero entertainment value ...
unless you are Amitabh Bacchan who can provide us with alternative entertainment, why not just shut your trap and watch from a distance? ...
why take yourself so seriously, eh?
:)
Dear Maverick,
At the end of the day it all comes down to the percentage of minor actinides in HLW. Now as we know minor actinides increase in proportion with higher burnups and this is precisely what is going to happen when we have more PWRs in the country .
Now unless, a breakthrough is made on Accelerator driven sub-critical systems , minor actinides will continue to be a cause for concern.
final geologic disposal for radioactive waste will always be a concern as well. of course it will probably be less "tedious" than the "brave" new world of carbon sequestration, which in my opinion is a risky proposition at best.
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On the PHWR vs LWR issue , it all depends on what kind of access you have to LEU.
the deal would have allowed access ,without having to setup enrichment facilities and in this case PWRs would have had the edge as they have higher ratings, higher burn-ups and of course new designs available today have considerably shorter construction time-frames.
On the other hand , if we don't have direct access to LEU, instead get Nat U from Niger or someplace and have to set up enrichment facilities ourselves, then?
That is still an open question. cost-benefit analysis ensues...
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As far as reprocessing is concerned, everybody understands the need to do so. it is not for anything that all so called Gen IV designs with the exception of one , just one, have
closed cycles.
On the PWR issue. remember it is not just a case of PHWRs vs LWRs . it's also a question of PWR vs other forms of base load generation .
initial investigations show that a PWR may actually be competitive with coal plants located 800 kms away from the pit head.
However the closed cycle is a necessity and the current uranium prices are actually above etc etc.....
Final comment for now,
A whole lot of people are worried about Obama and his posture towards India. I would say don't worry , have curry. American presidents' are known to sing a different tune before and after their administration begins. Not just U.S presidents, this is true for all political dispensations. typically, once in power the shrillness goes away and long held positions are compromised citing "constraints".
Obama has already watered down his stand on outsourcing . More dovishness will follow once he is in power. Big business is too big to ignore.
People will remember how everybody used to talk about the democrats being better for India etc. All this changed during Clinton's second term when China was showered with goodies and respect. why? because China counted.
and we all know what GOP has done for India during the Bush administration. why ? because India counts today. And will only count more.
My advice to all scaremongers out there, for or against the deal - what you are doing is pointless, and shows a lack of confidence more than anything else.
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Alok bhai ,
sorry to digress, but tell me
why is the net today full of drones who feel brave by simply clicking on a mouse and advocate the final solution for various denominations of people?
N.B: by the time you see this in all probability my ancestors and I would be "virtually" drowning in spit , from the defenders of the faith . And i am sure after they finish reading your response to this question , the same fate will befall you. If they have spit left over that is , or is it froth?
Dear Anonymous,
Am I giving BR more credit than it deserves - well you could say that.
I think there is no way to estimate how many other people may be doing the same thing. And in that regard I say - why take chances?
We don't know what role "tertiary sources" play in someone's mind.
When someone like Hon. Webmaster develops a cult like following - the problem becomes complicated. It can't be ignored that easily.
As you are well aware - people in India (and in the world) are prone to worshipping imagery.
We Indians, worship billions of "Gods" and in our spare time we worship movie stars, cricketers, religious leaders etc... An icon-based faith system is an indivisible part of our culture.
On BR - the traditional photo of Ganesh/Bal Krishna/Durga Mata... carried in the wallet has been replaced by a photo of an Agni warhead, a Sukhoi, a Delhi Class Destroyer etc...
In addition to the same obsessive attachment to the icon - many of the forumites (and Admins) feel a deep sense of connection to the military in India.
The Military in India - is a part of the Government - and like any organisational branch - it has its share of clashes with other branches. For a military officer to have peculiar views about civilian authority figures is perfectly understandable - that is just organisational friction.
However, when people - i.e. other civilians - pickup these organisational friction aspects and radiate them in the form of a general tirade and pervasive disdain of authority figures, I think it becomes a royal pain.
I recall for you that strange discussion that Sanjay M and the Hon. Webmaster had where the Hon. Webmaster claimed that per his knowledge the SFC was "dissatisfied" with the "situation". It is this kind of unsourced, unverifiable rubbish that
I think BR should recognise its place in the scheme of things - and it should not get too carried away with the whole "premier defence website" notion. It is all good for forumites (and Admin) to feel a sense of self importance because they are discussing such weighty issues - but then with that sense of importance - should come an even greater sense of responsibility.
It is that sense of responsibility that is missing here.
There is complete disconnect between the Forum Admin and reality. When confronted with accusations of an administrative failure, the forum mods and leaders promptly jump onto this "BR is just a talking shop" excuse, or "BR is a place for free debate" etc...
However the instant this accusation is withdrawn - the same mods start talking about big things, they shout and scream at civilian leaders, offer ranking police officers advice, hobnob with Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals etc.. etc... etc... They instantly go around acting like important people. Is that a delusion on their part?
If I am deluded for posting stuff on the web here in support of the GoI - are they any less deluded by claiming to be holding "free debate" that is somehow magically always in the interests of India?
D for C,
I have no ancestors because I am just a robot for a committee ... my new clear detergent works well on spit ...
as for LWR vs PWHR debate, if everything were equal, one could talk purely in terms of efficiency and bang per buck for the investment $$ ...
however, everything is not equal and there is politics to boot ... for example, India has surplus capacity in heavy water production but less than adequate U enrichment capacity ... once you factor that in, doesn't the equation tiult in favor of PHWR?
It is hillarious to see the cold war between shiv and Ramana.
Ramana's frustration is palpable while none of the anti-deal crowd can make a decent argument for their case.He is already acting like a sore loser calling for shiv to come out and openly support npt.
But this is the fun part...shiv is claiming the moral high ground by declaring he is neutral unlike Ramana while in fact he has been obsessively leading the pro deal campaign by drowning counter arguments with his banal expositions.
Only saving grace is the sane voices of rangudu and n^3.
yup India has made breakthroughs in heavy water production and is exporting the same as well.
However the bang for buck counts especially in a situation where the power scenario is undergoing the next wave of liberalisation. to put it blandly You need to spread large lumpy investments over as as many megawatts as possible . moreover you also need to have reactors that have longer lifetimes and shorter construction spans.
if LEU is made available, generators both Public and private according to me would like to include LWRs in their portfolio.
even on the enrichment front a "tax " mechanism could be set up to finance enrichment facilities.
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secondly , ramping up PHWR capacity may also mean new Heavy water plants and the refurbishment of some of our older plants. this has to be played out against the cost of new enrichment facilities.
Shiv and N^3 are playing a closely co-ordinated game to irritate Ramana .N^3 started an inane discussion about hypersonics and continues to talk in the most confounding manner possible . Discussions on the nuke threads are veering away to topics such as Lapcat/ Pussycat and all kinds of drones feting Shiv's astute observations on the Hindu growth rate and caste system. Kya tamaasha chal raha hai Bh*** ki aankh. DF ke din aagaye Kabab ke.
Hi,
I think the time has come to move the debate away from escalatory rubbish about weapons towards a more meaningful discussion on options for nuclear electricity generation.
So with that in mind, here is a first pass at comparing PHWR and LEU fired reactors.
PHWR pros:
1) Existing technology with local manufacturing base.
2) Heavy Water production already high.
3) Can use Natural Uranium (available from anywhere - India or abroad.)
4) Already conceptually patched into the 3 stage cycle - so we have an idea of what to do with the HLW.
PHWR cons:
1) Lead time due to local industrial bottlenecks.
2) Lower power o/p per kg of fuel.
3) Cost competitive with TPP at 1000km from coal pithead.
4) Increased costs of Heavy Water production.
5) Hassle from LEU pushers via the usual NP racket
Unknowns
1) operating costs - changing rods etc...
2) construction costs.
3) safety of larger piles.
LEU fired reactors
Pros
1) Higher power o/p per fuel element - so lower cost of changing rods etc...
2) Wider global industrial base - so lower lead times.
3) No need for Heavy Water production.
4) cost competitive with TPP at 800km from pithead.
5) Easier to arrange financing as international lenders are more likely to put money into names like GE etc...
Cons:
1) No local manufacturing base - import dependent for reactor tech.
2) No local enrichment base - so import dependent for fuel.
3) Not patched into our closed fuel cycle idea - therefore HLW management will be a problem.
4) Older technology that people are moving away from.
5) Foreign suppliers likely to resist IP transfer to local manufacturers.
Unknowns
1) Safety issues due to design changes
2) Waste managment costs.
3) Enrichment costs.
What have I missed/gotten completely wrong.
okay, quite a good summary . Just a few observations
on the LWR side,
Con no.1 needs to be qualified a little bit. our main deficiency is in the area of reactor pressure vessels .if we can somehow overcome that then , we have most of the other things in place.
Con no. 2- we do have a particular enrichment facility and gas centrifuge technology . so it's not like we don't have any base whatsoever.we just have to build new facilities , its the costs that count here.
Con no.3 " we do have immense expertise with the fuel cycle of two BWRs that have been generating power for a long time. A new NFC is in any case slated to come up.
Con no.4 : PHWR tech isn't that recent either. Pebble bed reactors and stuff aren't becoming available tomorrow. but Gen III + LWrs are.
Con no. 5 " they gave us CANDU tech didn't they?
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the Pros listed in favour of PHWRs will ensure that we have a mix . which is what is required in my opinion.
However at the end of the day , we have to look at the cost of generation taking into account all parameters and making the right assumptions about disruptions and input prices.
Remember, we wanted PWRs (VVERs) back in 1988 , which is when the RG-Gorbachev deal was signed. they would have come much sooner had it not been for the demise of the soviet union.
We still wanted them in 1998 and got them. we want four more now.
there is also this issue about power density and nuclear power trumps all other types there.
okay there is this asinine gentleman on DF who is criticizing our iron ore export policy to China. I wonder if they realize that our own steel industry gets something from China called met coke as a quid pro quo , without which our steel industry wouldn't do much good.
of course telling anybody on DF to quit La La land is too much anyway.everybody's an expert.
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DF follows a very simple procedure .
A newbie gets accepted once he does the following:
1. Bloodies his keyboard by making some bellicose statements about Semitic religions.
2. Reveals that he is ever willing to learn the Pinglish language .
3. Most importantly , GUBO upto the right admin and sing encomiums to the web exploits of the same .
Once steps 1 to 3 are accomplished , you become a bonafide community member and can post anything whatsoever as long as it is not reasonable.
funniest part is, one admin is now trying to troll another off the forum . he is of course using the good offices of the resident pinglish exponent who is literally intercepting mid-course any worthwhile discussion on nuclear matters.
Man i should have discovered this blog earlier. would have spent a lot more time in happiness ...
Dear Ducking for cover,
I don't want to comment on your first three observations at this time.
I agree the PHWR is not new technology - but it is a technology we have been continously revising in India. So it is the one reactor technology we know most about.
With LEU fueled reactors, we are reduced to relying on the manufacturer to tell us every detail up front. This creates a conflict of interest - if they want to sell you something - they may not be keen to tell you about the problems until after you have made the purchase.
Plus when they are fielding a completely new design - the manufacturer only has a limited grasp on what the problems might be.
The CANDU transfer became a very painful affair - so surely one can understand the reluctance on the Indian side to relive that thing.
I am comfortable with the VVER purchase purely because we have had enough time to actually study the design and interact with the suppliers. The suppliers are old friends and we know how to communicate with them.
I don't know if the same jump could be made with a new supplier especially if that supplier has a history of the wrong sort with us.
A mix of reactors may be suitable as you suggest given regional and seasonal variations in the base load, but then there is the question of whether they be keen to supply us with Natural Uranium if we do the refining ourselves or if they will be keen to supply us with LEU if we stockpile it ourselves. The third possibility where they supply us both the stockpile of natural uranium and the enrichment technology seems unlikely - becaue then they will have no control over us.
I don't think they want that much control anyway. People want to do business and lots of things have happened in the past ten years that many would have thought improbable .
i understand why you choose to be reticent on comments 1 to 3 . however the fact is, the nuclear industry in India will no longer be the same as it has been for the past 50 years.
the civil side of things is getting separated from the strategic side and this is a very good thing, basically keeping pace with liberalizing times.
okay last thought for today .
the mix of PHWRs and LWRs can have a symbiotic relationship through a process like DUPIC which is being done by Canada and S. Korea.
hmm ... indeed DF "debate" has become even more entertaining ...
now Shiv is giving ungali to NRI super-patriots ... LOL!
Maybe this will prompt John Snow to type a few sentences that make sense and have no "isharaa-wishaara"?
I doubt it ... LOL again!
[this same John Snow joker once said on DF that it was impossible to explain his POV to folks who were opposed to it ... these are "debating" geniuses after all ... ]
there should a cuckoo clock in DF's cuckoo-land discussion ...
all that the robotic cuckoo has to do is make a post every monday morning ... all it has to say is this:
"Its the Neutrons, Stupid"
one of these millenia, even the worthies/grand-debaters of DF just might "get it" ...
also, perhaps they will then stop posting puerile methods of "cheating" ...
even the jokers of IAEA know how to measure impurities at the part per trillion level ... :)
For somebody who lived in the US, I am suprised that you did not understand that a "pervasive disdain for authority" is part and parcel of the democratic experience.
You seem to be upset, that they have upsetted the traditional icon-based deference that politicians have enjoyed, and are treating their politicians like service providers. India needs more of that.
Anyway on the deal, the split seems to be between those who feel that they can handle the US, through creating mutual dependence, and give and take, and those who think that a legal document saying that the US would not act in its own interest if India were to test, would actually result in the US not acting in its own interest.
Why so little self-confidence? Has the quality of Indian leadership in the recent past so underminded the confidence of the Indian people?
Dear anonymous,
scare mongering is the order of the day today . you use it whenever you feel that your argument is losing ground . it's an old trick subject to ITAR , ULPA etc etc.
anonymous,
had they simply awakened to an *apolitical* debate and trashed politicians, that would have been one thing ...
but that is not the case ...
a large fraction of the rakshaks are just upset with the Sonia-MMS combine ... they probably still worship the dhotis of ABV and LKA ...
"... those who think that a legal document saying that the US would not act in its own interest if India were to test, would actually result in the US not acting in its own interest."
actually that captures one section rakshaks rather succinctly ...
:)
does anyone understand the massive Khujli that consumes rakshaks when the topic of "safeguards" for Civilian reactors is brought up? ...
what is the big deal if someone is counting the Pu beans at a reactor? ... what harm is done?
What if India were to sign-up for IGIA (International Gusl-khana Inspection Agency) who were charged with counting all the Poo in all public toilets in India? ...
will the rakshaks get Khujli over this "strategc leakage"? ...
what gives?
Alok Bhai,
would you care to explain the term "cognitive dissonance" for all readers ?
D for C,
I have just read some deliberations of the Jirga ... maybe time for some reflection ...
anyway, Cog Diss is a simple concept ... a simple example will illuminate:
consider a young pre-teen boy who has perfected the art of mijjile paalishing by reading the holy books authored by one Mr. Flint ...
the boy has a mental image of what upper maal looks like based on the 72 of the finest he has worshipped ...
one day he grows up and gets lucky ... when he first encounters the average real life maal, he is shocked ...
so, he closes his eyes, and continues to pretend that the maal is just as he had pictured it ...
:)
alok Bhai ,
jirgaites continue with conphusion onree.
the deal is a 123 with yamrika onree.
france , russki et al will have separate deals with us.
these guys want business and will not back any sanctions regime because some NPA had khujlee.
Testing is a separate issue and can and should be done if required .
test ke baad if the yamrikis say " no Uranium',
the russkis will step in and supply maal for safety considerations only.
By then they will have a super grandfather treaty with India i.e the one they will sign following the 123 and happily use it to supply more VVERs .
Moreover testing aur India ke saath break ke bichobeech 1 saal to nikal hi jaayega ..
Itna darne ka kuch nahi hai bhai log, get our own house in order make necessary amendments to the Atomic energy Act 1962 , and have curry.
when I had outlined that it was okay to test , I came from this perspective only. it's not like we have to test , but we can if we want to .its no biggie , irrespective of whatever scare mongering ensues.
"it's not like we have to test, but we can if we want to .its no biggie ..."
yes, that is clearly not a biggie ...
the problems started with not that "we want to" but that "we have to" test ... the *have to* part was attributed to a so-called "fizzle" and much-touted nonsense like "partial burn" and what not ...
this is my view regarding DF ... over there folks run a debate under the threat of 1CBT ... hence, the only persons allowed to spout nonsense are those who can ban, aka Banner-jees, i.e., Admins ...
Chatter-jees have to listen to Banner-jees, who can get away unchallenged with unverifiable garbage like "partial burn" ...
however, if a Chatter-jee is curious about whether the Banner-jee is full of Kaka-jee, he can come over to the Blog and see if a counter-post has been made ... this serves the general good ...
so simple ... and posted in simple Angre-jee ... :)
aah ... hadn't seen this argument in a while but it has just made a come back ...
the Deal sucks because it will offer better jobs to DAE employees ...
how treacherous and treasonous!
here is what DAE employees are good for:
1. Make a pittance for salary because they were not smart enough to take up a DOO job and split the country.
2. Dedicate their lives to India's nuclear program.
3. Be prepared to take abuse from the DOO who will call you "sell-outs" and your efforts as a "fizzle".
at least be honest folks ... Jpeg Jingogiri will not make GigaBooms, but at least root for the welfare of DAE employees ...
The right attitude should be that India should pay each DAE employee $1M by taxing DOO dudes ...
after that, let the cost of each TerraBoom escalate to $1B ... at that point let the DOO argue about how many TerraBooms they need for 360 degree new clear detergent ...
he he
As always , you have done an excellent precis on the prevailing circumstances in DF.
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Our nuclear establishment is made up of people who are some of the most decent folks i have seen in all industry , public or private.
they are simple people and even though they don't have a yam Bee Ya degree they are quite professional.
they also get a lot of work done within constraints. Moreover BARC training programs ensure that these guys stay up dated at all times.
yes, I also know a large number of these "sell-out fizzle makers" ...
The are worth the price of 2-3 DOOs of comparable years of experience ...
but back to regular programming ... Fill in the blank: "The deal sucks because __________________"
the deal sucks because " a doodle on DF said so".
the deal rocks becoz " a noodle on DF needs it".
Seriously , all this dam scaremongering for or against the deal should stop. neither will this deal be the end of the world nor will it be the last time we are offered a deal.
the problem with opposing or proposing something by saying that everybody is a traitor
is that it inevitably leads to the question-
who the hell are you trying to save this country from, anyway? Because if everybody in this country is a sellout, then a country of sellouts deserves no better.
Mav's parent post is typical of what Indian babooze would do in such a situation. Its no surprise since MAv himself has been their ardent support given his liking for their chai-biscoot sessions. What a babooze doesnt understand, he tries to control, basic rights be damned. This proposal is similar to the recent case when someone was jailed for posting comments against Sonia. While this proposal seems reasonable, it is really the start of a full blown censorship attempt by the babooze. India has enjoyed a free and vibrant press with open discourse on all topics. The babooze have never liked it really since they get tend to be pilloried for their lapses in such a free discourse. Instead of cleaning up their act, babooze will float such proposals like MAv's that are a start of censorship on the web. Of course, the usual suspects of "national security", "Aaahr, Terraarist," "Wont someone please think of the children" will be trotted out as Mav has faithfully done already.
It seems that the babooze are confused on the issue of BR. One one hand they say its not important, on the other hand, they are spending some time on it and having MAv comment on it. As someone has said before, its a tertiary website. It's forum has zero impact and anyone who really takes it seriously as a source of how GoI is thinking is seriously deluded. But the babooze dont understand, and hence the attempt at censorship. The true babooze mentality is already evident in the veiled threat of using the danda, readers should recall Mav's oblique reference to Arun_S and breaking of his legs in his earlier posts. In short the message seems to be "Observe our censorship or else face risk to life and limb, metamorphically speaking.
What next? A government body set up to which each user must send his posts to be vetted (in triplicate, no less) before one can post?
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okay Maulana, J^3 continues to descend into greater tomfoolery . the hypersonic mullah as always is obsessed with abduls and JDAMs and is questioning the non-NSG sourcing option by citing that "if it was so easy. Abdul's would get it to " . My dear BMD mullah , it isn't that simple because there is the simple issue of having to "mine" the Uranium, which can now be done due to arrangements with two of these countries.
Moreover the deal is about access to LEU . it's not about Nat. Uranium.
however if push comes to shove the option of getting nat U from outside and setting up PHWRs will be considered.
even setting up new enrichment facilities will be considered.
i would seriously advise this bogus poster to cease and desist from his antics for a while. however that is too much to ask, because as of now Pinglish exponents are being used to literally troll off serious posters and indeed even some admins from the forum.
But then some people are more equal than others , isn't it?
if he reads my last post , given his "cool dude manner", I am sure he won't go ballistic . However I assure you, he will go Hypersonic!
Hi Anonymous,
My apologies - the comment
"pervasive disdain for authority"
should have read
"pervasive disdain for civilian authority figures".
There is a certain degree of cynicism that comes with being a democracy and it is very much a part of the democratic process and so anger against politicians is natural to a democracy.
However when mistrust is selectively allowed to be directed against civilian authority figures in the bureaucracy - but carefully deflected from the military figures - that seems asymmetric to me.
I do not wish to speculate on the causes of the assymetry - as they are well known to me.
However if one can launch attacks on the DAE leadership using the forum as a base - constitutes
"open debate on the issues of national security", why is it that the Army/ Navy/ Air Force leadership be spared the benifits of similar debate on the forum?
Alternatively - if the Army/Air Force and Navy are spared such entertainment why does the forum not extend the same benifits to their civilian counterparts?
Ananya,
The confusion is mostly in my mind and in the minds of people reading the forum. I doubt anyone in the GoI takes the site too seriously - however it is difficult for me to predict how the rest of the world's goverments view the site and material on it.
No one can monitor everything - it is physically impossible. Beyond a point citizens have to police themselves.
However if citizens are continously seduced by lies spread via the internet - it is bad for the national debate.
Calling the PM a "traitor", making sectarian comments about Sonia Gandhi, assaulting the DAE leadership, claiming to have access to "secret sources" about thinking in the Strategic Forces Command and India's bomb design and "fizzles in 1998" etc...
How much of this can one be expected to ignore?
You can't do things like this and still expect to be considered the "premier defence website" etc... etc...
Rangudu is systematically stripping ramana ... there are no arguments left even if he resorts to Latin ...
dangerous territory in the 1CBT regime ...
Rangudu, Don't be shrill!
:)
Maverick,
You seem uncomfortable with the free-flow of ideas in the marketplace. India's increasing embrace of this, is what makes India the democracy for the 21st century, in the way the US was for the 20th, and Britain for the 19th. It might mean that India never becomes a superpower, but then it is much better to be a super-society. When the political leadership starts displaying the maturity to treat each other with respect on issues of national interest, you will see that the population, including BR does so as well.
Lets face it, the Congress mismanaged this file, and should have de-politicized it by making the opposition a stakeholder from the start. Now it is a political matter, and is being treated politically by many people, including those at BR, who feel that the Congress cannot do anything right.
Why are Indians so legalistic? Do they think that a perfect agreement will lead to a perfect relationship with the US? Haven't past American betrayals taught them better?
anonymous,
1. "free-flow of ideas" does not mean that you slander those who can not defend themselves due to secrecy oaths.
2. From Day 1, I was against this call for "transparency" etc., which basically meant that ShauryaT and sraj types would have gone over it with a fine-toothed comb and raised 39 objections on each sentence in the agreement ... as you say, Clueless Legalitis is an infectious disease ...
My bet is that folks like ABV and LKA know *exactly* what is in the deal ...
now, the Banner-jees are using third grade psyops ... "joining the NPT is better than this deal" ... LOL!
join NPT as what? ... NNWS? ... give up the MegaBooms and FizzleBums, just because there were no TerraBooms?
Wah!
I could not have imagined that the High and Mighty will resort to the PETULANCE ARGUMENT ...
this ball-by-ball commentary is necessary to record the chakkas being hit by Banner-jees ...
Alok_N what you are saying is actually how a lot of deals in the world work. People don't disclose it to the public till the nth hour , just so that they don't have to "deal" with continuous objections during a process.there's no real issue here, it is a very done thing.
However international treaties require taking on board the main opposition party. the moment you get into legacy's all kinds of problems start.
RG weaponised our deterrent, ABV tested it and MMS is signing a deal.
its just a deal folks and regardless of political spin, at the end of the day its just business, nothing really historic about it. its just that all those things that seemed improbable before are now becoming routine.
On the larger note of web freedom. nobody's going to get sent to Siberia or anything . I don't know about political entities , who slander each other publicly anyway, but insulting DAE is cruel and plain wrong.
Moreover sending somebody to prison because that somebody wrote something on a website is nonsense as well and is reminiscent of the emergency days and should be opposed tooth and nail.
Both sides should remember that in the event that the dhotiwallahs come to power the same could happen in the name of censorship to all Topiwallahs and vice versa. So this kind of nasty turn in the Indian milieu is unacceptable.
the police obviously cannot police everything so they set a few examples to please the leadership and scare people . these tactics are also unacceptable.
I haven't seen, in particular Ramana, substantiate any of his concerns with the deal.
From what I gather from a rare articulation without his usual obfuscations and ishaaras, he still has a major heartache about testing which I find unbelievable in the face of the countless threads and debates addressing this issue in DF.
The man comes across as a dodgy operator... what is this guy all about??? He seem to have no interest in a economically developed and prosperous India. Instead he wants a Iran an impoverished hindu theocracy armed with bums which he and the likes of him desperately hope will make up for the embarrassment and shame they feel about historical India.
F*@k Indians in India, we want to show our white masters we are hardcore too.
These old fogies with massive insecurities should go on a vanvas or sanyas or some shit instead of waging a pathetic propaganda war.
++What have I missed/gotten completely wrong.++
From Introduction to Reactor Physics, B. Rouben:
The true measure of a reactor's efficiency is uranium utilization, the amount of uranium mined from the ground, needed to produce a certain amount of energy. Fuel burnup can be high and fuel consumption low because of isotopic enrichment of the fuel, but it is the amount of natural uranium used which is most important from the point of view of resource utilization. Uranium utilization is good (low) in CANDU because of its high neutron economy.
From http://canteach.candu.org/library/19980101.pdf
Uranium utilization (the amount of mined uranium required per unit energy output from the reactor) is lower in PHWR compared to LWR. This would translate not only to better utilization of natural resources but also to lesser impact on cost of electricity due to cost variations in fuel.
Uranium utilization in PHWR is about 157 Mg/MWyr while in LWR it is about 213 Mg/Mwyr.
In general, the cost component of fuel -- initial load as well as that required during refueling -- which is usually categorized as being part of the total operating costs, is lower for a PHWR than LWR.
In any case, a "closed fuel cycle", (that is, reprocessing of spent fuel from either PHWR or LWR, and reuse in FBR / PHWR / possibly LWR) needs to be adopted for maximum utilization of the energy content in Uranium.
Hi,
The MMS government has no intention of signing the NPT.
If either the BJP or the Left front wants to do it - they should put it on their manifesto and bring it up in the next election.
This way neither the BJP nor the Left can be blamed for not adequately consulting the polity before taking a decision of this magnitude.
Dear Anonymous,
I think "superpower" status is something that only products of intense cultural inbreeding crave.
It is a little out of place in the Indian way of thinking.
This "politicians before people" idea is bit of a chicken and egg dispute. Ultimately the political leaders only do things that entertain the population, so if the population wants it - the politicians will perform it.
There is no freeflow of ideas on the forum - it is a moderated environment. I am only noting that there is a moderation slant - a slant against civilian authority figures in India.
"In general, the cost component of fuel -- initial load as well as that required during refueling -- which is usually categorized as being part of the total operating costs, is lower for a PHWR than LWR."
anonymous,
the para above is a typical example of cherry-picking ...
"Total Operating Cost" is the *total* cost ... period ...
just the U cost is one thing ... what about cost for production of heavy water? ... what about additional safety measures due to possible Tritium leakage? ... what about cost of installed capacity per MW? ...
unless a complete analysis is done, in the *Indian context*, this comparison is meaningless ...
the final analysis is simple ... how many Rupees need to flow into the plant for every kW-H that flows out of the plant?
Anonymous,
Thank you for bringing that to my attention, I will revise the text of the point accordingly.
Here's a news item from 6 years ago:
http://www2.ans.org/pubs/magazines/rs/pdfs/2002-9-10-3.pdf
On page 3 is a small item about how the Chinese plan to use spent fuel ...
On the topic of constructing a relationship of mutual dependence with the US - has India ever been able to create such a relationship with anybody?
On the major international topics - trade negotiations, and the environment - the Indian government has been magnificent in defending its interests. But this has been a defensive action, where India has exercised its veto with skill.
What about an offensive policy. Can India construct a relationship with its "strategic partners" so that if they piss on India, they get it back? Has India been able to force another power to change its intended course of actions in the subcontinent? For example in arms sales.
Post Pokhran II, when Canada imposed sanctions on India, panicking Canadian businesses were worried that they would be shut out of the lucrative Indian market. The Canadian government was able to respond that India did not seem inclined to punish Canada, so there was no cost involved for Canadian business. Canada was able to point at Canadian companies continuing to win government contracts in India.
It is the fear that India will be slapped around in the future on the nuclear front, and not be able to compel its partners to take into account its strategic interets that worries people. They take refuge in legalistic arguments, hoping to defend with paper what they fear they cannot defend with a robust and intelligent foreign policy. Are their fears unsubstantiated, or has India shown behaviour in the past that justifies such behaviour?
Alok:
" Rangudu is systematically stripping ramana ... there are no arguments left even if he resorts to Latin ...
dangerous territory in the 1CBT regime ...
Rangudu, Don't be shrill! "
Yes, R is challenging ramana's ridiculous assertion that this 123 deal is equivalent to CTBT/NPT etc. Ramana has been on this kick for a couple of years now, I have no idea where he gets it. I only know that A_S has been selling the same line, and the two of them hava a gang of shrill, aggressive chelas who wah-wah them on every page and verbally abuse all posters of contrary opinions. See, for example, your average SaiK/Shaurya/TruthSeeker type rakshak.
Lekin ek baat batao, bhai -- yeh "1CBT" cheez kya hoti hai? "First Class Bullshit Talk"? "One-Click Ban Technology"? "One Can't Buy TeraBooms"? Inquiring minds want to know onlee. :) :)
the police obviously cannot police everything so they set a few examples to please the leadership and scare people . these tactics are also unacceptable.
Blogger arrests hit record high
Lekin ek baat batao, bhai -- yeh "1CBT" cheez kya hoti hai? "First Class Bullshit Talk"? "One-Click Ban Technology"? "One Can't Buy TeraBooms"? Inquiring minds want to know onlee. :) :)"
1CBT == One Can Be Terminated ...
Basically, Banner-jees hold the right to tell Chatter-jees that their Strate-jee for Ener-jee future is all Mytholo-jee ...
such is the Lethar-jee of JPeg-Jingo-Jees ... :)
SHiv asks:
"Why do I feel that both the call center/armed forces comparison as well as my own horse/man comparison are ridiculous and totally off topic in this thread?"
Err, perhaps because you are 400% correct for once?
The reason you get away with such puerile crap is because you are a Banner-jee ...
:)
"I haven't seen, in particular Ramana, substantiate any of his concerns with the deal.
From what I gather from a rare articulation without his usual obfuscations and ishaaras, he still has a major heartache about testing which I find unbelievable in the face of the countless threads and debates addressing this issue in DF."
anonymous,
you are absolutely correct ... these Banner-jees have never posted anything worthwhile ... they just give "isharaa" from 1000 ft off the ground ...
they are basically worthless if you take away their "chamcha brigade of jpeg jingoes" ...
I have patiently waited for these Banner-jees to post something worthwhile ... but, alas ...
their whole power-trip is based on the fact that they run a JPeg Jingo Website and can ban at will ... LOL
:)
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DF was the "premier defence website" because of the competition , which is mostly at the level of Abdul Def forum. Sites like Abdul Def are full of posters who probably live in some dystopian world where time and facts get distorted in equal measure , even though most posters cannot even construct a proper sentence in English.
Unfortunately, in the past couple of years DF has sought to bring itself down to the level of the Abduls. though some posters look at issues such as Yamrika , China even Mars others continue to be fixated with the culture , language and etiquette of the Abduls.
Membership of the website is granted once steps 1-3 that I delineated earlier are done. you become a bonafide chatter-jee to GUBO in front of banner-jee with their usual Kaka-jee.
what brings the level of DF down is the "Strategic issues forum". After my favourite banner-jee made some brazen statements about Df , I find that threads from this section have been "tactically" barred from showing on the front page of DF.
there are some 7 odd decent posters on DF , who still have an open mind . outside of that its all banner-jee, chatter-jee and of course kaka-jee.
11:12 PM
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Oh apart, from the various Jees there is also the vice chancellor of LMU,
our very own Pinglish speaking hypersonic Mullah- J^3. this otherwise circumscribed (or is it .. never mind) gentleman is anything but linguistically challenged . Moreover he has a tremendous grasp on topics such as JDAM based deterrence and Abdul delivered cluster munitions. who said that the Abduls were falling behind in technology and conception?
One Banner-jee has spoken ...
The deal sucks because ... drum roll please ... "it is making some people emotionally upset" ...
Wah!
only a Banner-jee and Ms. Manners could pull that off as analysis ...
such is the wisdom being imparted on the premier website ... :)
Hi Anonymous,
Why just India - has anybody been able to construct such a "mutual dependence" relationship with anyone else? that was entirely trouble free?
Is this a realistic goal? or is more realisitic to simply accept a "working relationship" which has elements of "mutual dependence" and "antagonism"?
I think the "working relationship" is more realistic. That is why the GoI's policy of signing the 123 but not the NPT makes sense to me.
In a "working relationship" - legal documents are ways of openly signalling intentions. The Americans have indicated to that given their peculiar fears in the nuclear context - they will periodically act in weird ways. If India wants to make that clear in a legal document - the Hyde Act. How precisely the US reconciles its legal obligations under this act with its business interests - I don't know but that is America's problem.
In a "working relationship" you do not target business groups. If you have laws that target a country - you go to great lengths to make noise and cut footage in the media - but you do absolutely nothing to stop businesses from profitable commerce.
Now because your own citizens are fantastically stupid - and they believe everything they see on TV, this stunt works. No one asks inconvenient questions like "why is by baby dying fighting this war in Iraq"... "Isn't this the same Iraq which we sold a crapload of weapons to in the 80s?" etc...
If on the other hand your citizens are far smarter than that - you don't get any benifits from passing hollow laws which you have no concieveable way of enforcing.
If Kevin Rudd wants to sell Australian Uranium exclusively to China - that is his choice. If the Chinese use that Uranium to make bombs to hit Australia, that is Kevin Rudd's problem too.
If Kevin Rudd gets on our nerves too much - we can just increase the prosecution rate for visiting Australian pedophiles in India.
If you understand the concept of the "working relationship" you can't take refuge in legalistic frameworks. You become too prone fears inspired by adversarial media groups.
If you have some half-assed main-bhi-American fantasy - India is the wrong place to expect that fantasy to be fulfilled.
Sure, I agree there are young people in India that are fed a diet of australian and US tv channels for the last 15 years, but that doesn't make it necessary/sensible to do everything these people want.
alok Bhai
is particular banner-jee ka kaka-jee, I had spotted a long time ago. In any case DF has joined a select group of forums where admins themselves troll around the threads.
In any case , people should not be under the impression that pvt players will set up reactors on their own. every new venture will have hand holding from the public utility in one form or the other.
>> Why why we are doing the deal assuming the highest office in the country is not in the process of selling the country cheap
Err.. is that question?
>> - why we did not take 10 reactors from Russia totalling 10000 MW under project specific safeguards which means we only have to return the spent fuel
Umm... boss.. are you blind?
it was deal with the USSR.
Shortly after this deal was signed - the USSR collapsed and the Russian Federation was not in a position to deliver on any of the USSR's commitments.
There was no way the Russians were able to go through with their end of the deal - the lead time on the 10000 MW was longer than the lead time on the Gorskhov.
What you are seeing today at koodankulam is remains of the day as far as this deal is concerned.
>> - why we are cutting off Iran from crude/gas supply matrix without any viable alternative and at the same time talk of energy security vide nuclear energy
No one is doing that - if you can transport the ONG from Iran to India we'd be happy to integrate it into our "crude/gas supply matrix".
The problem is securing stable transit via an unstable Pakistan.
The alternative to an unstable Pakistan is an *AMERICAN* firm which will provide ship based transport.
Eventually when the crude/ONG reaches our shores it will be refined/stored/etc... using *AMERICAN* technology.
What I fail to see is *how* this is any less "vulnerable" than anything we do in the Nuclear sector where we actually control significant amounts of IP.
>> - why we are allowing our fissile material inventory build up to be limited
That is something you made up - the only limitation will come *if* the Uranium shortage is allowed to get to a point where we are forced to choose between lower PLFs and fewer weapons. That point has not yet been reached - but with debaters like *you* we are going to get there pretty quickly.
>> -why we are agreeing to no future test knowing a lot more tests will be required to have a convincing thermo nuclear warhead
This is a straw man you have invented. The moratorium on testing is voluntary.
>> - why we going for more share of nuclear power (on paper not on ground) when the world over the share of nuclear power is going down from 16.3% to 8 percent in next 10 years
See... ten years down the road - when your source for such statistics conveniently revises the estimate to show that nuclear power usage is going to rise in the next 50 years, you will be agitating about how India did nothing about nuclear power for the last twenty years.
In the 90s when everyone predicted that nuclear power usage would drop to 2-3 percent globally and oil was dirt cheap. We were in a fiscal crisis and we had to shut down our Uranium mines - and look at the glee when you blame Manmohan Singh for that!
>> - knowing the power from imported reactors controlled by private players will be prohibitively costly we still tout "common mans bijlee"
Okay- *NOW* the "common man" makes a sudden appearance.
Actually - by that logic - this entire political debate people like you have inspired has hurt the common man far more than any nuclear power plant owned by private players.
Incidentally, the extent of privatisation in the power sector is going to go up with/without nuclear power. That is the only way to reform those SEBs that you also keep complaining about.
So yes - the tariffs will rise - and (globally) utility prices will rise.
>> - what is the moral ,legal ,political right of a minority government to push through a controversial deal like this despite opposition from the majority both within and outside parliament
I think the moral right can be questioned ceaselessly. I could make equally compelling arguments to effect that by attacking the PMO and the DAE in this virulent a fashion - people opposing the deal have forefieted any sense of moral superiority.
I think the legal right is not in dispute if it were - the government would have fallen. If either the BJP or the Left front want to question the legal right of this government - they should pass a no confidence motion in parliament and end this drama.
The political right is the same as that of the BJP which wants to be the party to sign this deal itself - and/or the Left which wants to shop the deal to China instead of the US.
>> - why the funding to nuclear research reduced
Another "straw man" - there is no shift in the funding pattern.
>> -why investment to uranium production cut systematically
Another one - the new mines would not be coming online if the investment was cut.
The investment was cut in the 90s due to a financial crisis and due to competitive pressures from the low price of oil which lowered carbon energy prices. The investment could only be slowly expanded after 1998 because the BJP placed keeping good ties with the US above getting more Uranium out of the ground.
>>> - why an etopic idea of buying many reactors from outside is being floated knowing the manufacturing capacity simply does not exceed
How is this "ectopic"?
How is it anymore "ectopic" than say expanding reliance on carbon energy sources where manufacturing capacity - refining, storage, etc... falls well short of demand?
How is this any more "ectopic" than investing in Wind, Hydel, Solar or Geothermal where the growth potential is even more limited?
The only thing ectopic in what you have said is the use of the word "ectopic" itself.
>> - why our so called independent media is supporting the deal in an openly biased manner
This is the same media that you worship because of the teasers it releases from time to time about how X is pushing the deal and Y is opposing it etc...
I think the media is playing you for a fool.
>> Cry India -for this is the most shameful moment in your history
That seems to be the thought you are most comfortable with when going to bed.
I can't change that point of view - so I am not going to try but I will point out that your addiction to this perpetual rape-fantasy you harbour is the root of your problems.
You will continue to invent reasons to believe that somehow something somewhere is raping Mother India.
>>> Cry India...
Boss, India has a dozen things to cry about - food shortage, water crisis, health problems, environmental problems.
So sorry but we don't have the tears to spare for your peculiar problem.
the most interesting development is the recent move by the Chinese to do a Chashma III and 4 . e One of th ostensible reasons for letting the 1988 treaty grandfather Kudanakulam 1998 was the Chashma . However the Yamrikis had blocked KKN 2 by stating that they were not allowing Chashma III to happen . But given that Chashma III now seems on the anvil , I wonder....
Thus Spake the TruthSeeker:
"The present "bitterness" has its source in Hyde."
A long time ago on DF, the committee had issued this statement:
"In order to deter India, the US does not need any Bums or 7th Fleet ... all it has to do is pass an Act in Congress and throw India into total chaos and disarray."
nice detergent ... much cheaper ...
:)
Hi,
The "bitterness" is something they have themselves generated by getting uncivil in the debate and by attacking the institutions of government.
Now they are celebrating the demise of the MMS government and salivating at the prospect of coming to power.
However there is no way there is no plan on how to restore the credibility of the government - internally or internationally.
If the next guys in power go up to President McCain/Obama and say we want a *new* deal - I doubt the Americans are going to say "Oh for you we will change the Hyde Act". If they do - we will have yet another repeat of this same drama -- the same NPA will take even more money from China and this time around the opposition of being traitors etc...
Alternatively if they don't go to the Americans and beg there - they will face a diesel crisis inside the country - which there is no way of deflecting responsibility for - because by the time they come into power high diesel costs will ensure low PLF at NPPs and TPPs.
Sure they can blame MMS - but who will take them seriously?
OFBJP Dude #1: We beat the traitors.
OFBJP Dude #2: slap yer back.
OFBJP Dude #1: double slap yer back.
OFBJP Dude #2: Indians are lucky we are there to protect them.
OFBJP Dude #1: Absolutely. By the way, crank up that air-conditioner.
OFBJP Dude #2: a double crank up for you today!
NRao,
If you are reading this ...
Comparisons of GNEP versus Indias 3 stage should be done on equal footing ...
your fear that Thorium will take a backseat may be justified, but what is the justification? ... are you suggesting that Thorium is too expensive to compete on the world market? ...
a good comparison can be made with the Tar Sands of Canada ... right now it represents an unviable source of oil ... but, with oil prices creeping up, it is fast becoming an attractiv option ... similarly, how are you pricing GNEP fuel in your mind? ... given market forces, I can well imagine that Indian Thorium based maal will be cheaper than Western GNEP based maal ...
so, please refrain from fear-mongering, unless you have an analysis for why GNEP will kill Thorium ... Cheers.
now Raju boss has pulled out "nukes over afghanistan" out of his musharraf ...
I am really amazed that I once considered "the premier website" to be a credible entity ...
Nuns debating their faith are more rational ... LOL>
correction onlee!
upon further review, it has been learnt that:
Raju's Musharraf == www.willthomasonline.net
sorry about any confusion caused by this erroneous reporting ...
meanwhile, the Nuns have confirmed that their ranking is intact ... :)
the next genius, Shankar, spends all of 1 minute to google up a link and posts it without examining it (perhaps not even reading it) ...
had he spent 2 minutes googling, he may have bothered to check whether the 12 ng per liter figure quated in that article is actually true ...
but why bother ... we are the premier website so whatever we cut&post becomes the truth ...
To top it off, Banner-jee is piling on psycho babble on "truth" rather than check a simple number ...
:)
okay a pro deal scaremonger has re-emerged on DF. asking anybody to quit la la land in Df is too much.
China will not lose any contracts whatsoever if it does a new chashma. Moreover China can easily offer pakistan a 123 on the basis of the U.S move to do so for India and can guarantee fuel supplies as well.Moreover there is always the grandfather clause that allowed chashma I.
No equipment supplier will dare rock the chinese applecart and anybody saying that contracts will be cancelled is just being shrill.
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its a deal Beebul and it does not need nonsensical scare mongering for support.
the nuclear renaissance is about business and the chinese have a 20000-40000 MW plan of their own . Nobody is going miss that boat , especially with a P-5 NPT NWS.
All topiwallahs made a mistake when they started dubbing this as "historic", "strategic re-alignment" , "our achievement "blah blah.
they should just have said what they are saying now , its about energy and trade and things would have been fine.
But of course touting things and shrillness is how we do it, isn't it?
As far as hyde is concerned , big deal . obviously given Iran and others The U.S couldn't have seen to be giving away everything. so they passed a nice little act of their own.
As far as GNEP is concerned if we join as a supplier nation , its a victory.
remember international co-operation will also allow us to join forces with the radkowsky design people . these guys are already doing stuff with the kurchatov institute on modifying VVERs to utilise thorium as well.
So the deal may also mean access to thorium related stuff.
Hello,
The only deadline is set by the business community's confidence levels.
There are indicators all around that the industrialists and business groups - Indian and American - who backed this initiative in order to diversify their investments in electric generation are getting tired of a political game that is going nowhere.
There has to be a "sense of motion" to keep the business interests enmeshed into the deal.
The arguments being presented to stall the deal - no testing, backdoor-fmct etc... are all rubbish.
There is a real problem - the elephant in the room - that no one dares to talk about - that ever expanding mess they call the dollar.
I told all these people arguing endlessly on the forum - that they should not frame the debate in imponderables like "loss of soverignity" and "Sonia keeping the seat warm for Rahul/Priyanka" etc...
D for C,
NRao has ruled "bye bye Thorium", so please refrain from talking sense ...
A similar Fatwa should be issued to Gerard for interfering with the nice yarn being spun by ShauryaT et al ...
:)zpuby
Mav,
After thinking about the deal for a long time, my only concern regarding this deal centres around the commitment we have given towards working for a FMCT.
After all, I remember AK mentioning in our interview to Frontline that civilian as well as strategic interests demand that the PFBR as well as the 3-4 other FBRs that will be constructed in Kalpakkam upto the time the technology matures (around 2020) should be kept out of the civilian sector.
This means that we should avoid the FMCT upto 2020-2025 at the very least. Does this commitment not to obstruct the FMCT go against this national interest?
anonymous,
why is FMCT against national interest? ... in fact, who defines national interest?
if you look at history, India's national interest is "universal disarmament" ...
is FMCT consistent with Univ Diss? ... if yes, no probs ... if no, then Indian Babooze can debate how to make it consistent ...
do oyu have no faith in the Babooze being able to consume 1 GigaTon of Chai-biskoot? ...
is this about loss of faith in Babooze?
don't think they're capable of carrying on?
Not looking forward to "126th Conference on FMCT and All That is Good and Lovely Under the Sun", to be held in New Gurgaon in 2026?
-------------------
The match on DF has reached a boring stage with spin attack from both ends ...
how many overs until the second new ball is due?
folks,
our job is partially done ... and well done at that ...
DF has achieved the Headless Chicken status through its own bickering among clueless "experts" and Banner-jees ...
I have sent out for the popcprn refill ...
:)
I am enjoying the self-destruct scenario, but couldn't pass up this gem from TruthSeekerDude:
"So yes, tests should happen, sooner than later, but not too soon or too late"
compare this to another age old gem of wisdom:
"If I had some ham I'd make ham & eggs, if I had some eggs."
methinks, the ham&eggs dude wins on coherence points ... :)
by the way, John Snow is actually trying to put together full sentences ... wow ... that's a first ... even though they are still meaningless diatribes, one should encourage this move ...
but, but, he is taking on Banner-jee, so popcorn is still on track ... :)
Hey Hey Hey!
The Johann is back Is it just me or has he just let off another sly left-cheek sneak with the "Raisin Dieter of Paki nukes" parallel? IMHO posts like this would only further provoke the chest-thumping apes in the phorum. They can now argue for overwhelming first-strike capability and nuke gap between India-Pakistan that the latter could never ever breach....
In other news tonight, The Great Shaman just divined that the Maha Conshpirashy has finally crept into the inner sanctums of BRF.
-Anand K
yes, the Queen's Jester is back ...
as per the House of Cards dude, he is busy "putting a stick about and watching them jump" ...
Ian Richardson would be proud ... :)
I am curious, is the purpose of this blog solely to poke fun at BRF?
Hi Anonymous,
I do not see anything that suggests we have given a consent to the FMCT.
When all these treaties were drawn up - we were never consulted. The treaties were simply imposed on us with imperial flourish.
I don't see why anyone in India would take the FMCT seriously - everyone knows there is a credibility gap that the US suffers from where these international treaties are concerned.
Hi,
I was considering making a separate post on this issue, but I would like to test the waters here.
This is how I think the gravy train works.
The politicians in India and the US suck money out of companies that want to make a deal go down. Ultimately, after paying for a few media blitzes here and there, the money ends up as "get out the vote" cash in India or US - i.e. money you pay voters to come to the polling booth. In this fashion the companies end up paying out to the people.
After that when the company gets a piece of the action, they gouge the customers through all kinds of stunts and make back their losses and more. In this way the people end up paying out to the companies.
The cycle starts again when the next big economic item comes on the menu.
In the US people are preparing for what will likely be a brutal election. The entire economy is struggling with inflation and the electoral atmosphere is likely to be very charged. This means there is a greater need for "get out the vote" money. That is the root of the "oh just hurry up" signals that the US senate keeps sending India.
In India, its all about timing. The election is going to be hard fought - there are new vote banks in urban India that have to be tapped and then there is a complicated transition between generations within several parties. This means the election could need more money there too and that is why things are dragging at our end.
If the companies lose interest - the gravy train stops. The politicos don't get paid off and there is no trickle down. The machine simply shuts down.
There is a need to step away from escalatory rubbish about soverignity, "selling out" etc... both USIBC and ASSOCHAM have put it in plain words and the leaders of at least two major industrial groups in India have bluntly stated their interest in nuclear power production in India.
It is time to move the debate along - lest we appear to be ignoring the economic aspects of this and lose the industrialists in the process.
Let me put it another way - your party (whatever BJP, Congress, Left) NEEDS money to fight elections - that money has to come from industrialists as they are the only ones making profits in India right now. You piss them off - and they won't pay you - you don't get paid - you will lose the election.
That being said - we are still left struggling with the elephant in the room - that damn dollar. We can print rupees and artificially stabilise the dollar against the rupee but this amounts to commiting harakiri if the Americans don't do something to get things moving at their end. I am willing to believe that the fundamentals of the US economy are strong but I have yet to see that strength be put to use in resolving the situation with the dollar.
A related fear is the growth of Chinese influence over US foreign policy. If the US wants money from the Chinese - I doubt the Chinese are simply going give it for free. Can someone in India take US insistance on an anti-China policies seriously when the US itself is mired in debt to China?
Dear Anonymous,
The above post with its sterile, cynical and cruel "plainspeak" is the "point" of this blog.
Right now the forum is inhabited by an extremely vocal minority that persists in inventing irresolvable complaints about the nuclear deal.
To the extent that this kind of behaviour helps Indian politicians shake down technology companies backing this deal - it is good.
If as a result of people whining on the forum either the BJP, Congress or Left get more grease to the palm - Allah ho Akbar - there is no one happier than me.
However - if this obstructive attitude on the forum reaches a point where it gets in the way of India's industrial intersts or India's scientific interests or India's strategic interests - it needs to stop.
This is the limit to which I am criticising the forum.
There are others here who are complaining about the moderation failures inside the website. I endorse this point of view - to the extent that I have personally just recently seen a moderation failure on the forum result in very damaging debate about India's nuclear security.
I think one has two choices with regards to the forum - either try to reason with them and then get them to come around to a more positive view of things in India or let them stew in their own juice - let the drown in a pool of their own spit, gag on the own bile etc... etc...
I have come around to the latter choice.
I have failed to reason with them and get them to come off this "sky is falling" nonsense. In the process of pursuing this endless addiction to hype - the forumites have completely trashed a website I once participated in and loved dearly. Seeing all this makes me very sad.
And I am sadder still to say that the moderation teams attitude seems to mirror this destructive and confrontationist impulse. I feel there is simply too much of a desire within the moderation effort to "go with the flow" and too little instinct to go against the flow. I feel this kind of thing simply sets up for an even more dramatic and visible moderation failure in the near future.
DF is pretty much operating on the lines of the American jury system. Basically,as part of either prosecution or defense you cannot say who's going to be on the jury . however you do get to strike out people from the list of potentials. Df has enshrined this principle . every banner-jee gets to take out posters who seem the greatest threat to their Pov.
Moreover there are quid pro quos at work as well. okay "tu usko nikaal uske badle, mujhe ise nikaalne de"
such is the greatness of their "give and take policy".
This comment has been removed by the author.
However the type who really want to make me throw up are the sycophants.
they remind me of those fools, who hold up thank you ESPN banners during cricket matches just to be shown on TV.
Typically these posters make sentimental calls for rethinking the direction that Df is taking , or echoing the sentiments of some banner-jee.
they are also the type who fete the BMD mullah on inane observations and say stuff like "can we hit back at them " and "are we under attack" as if jpeg jingogiri qualifies as somekind of uber patriotic activity.
Sample this from a typical sychophant
"why should I get banned , by just being me?"
well you won't , because "being you " is being a sycophant.
then there is the 'make Df invitation only" sycophant.
what this sucker is really saying is "dekh maine apne aapko prostrate kar diya , mujhe mat bhulna".
> I am curious, is the purpose of this blog solely to poke fun at BRF?
of course not! ... however, providing a free of charge critique is a sport with some of the altruistic ones amongst us ...
come and play ... you may just enjoy it ... DF provides much fodder ...
if India had an Ann Coulter equivalent, she would be the heroine of DF ...
some dude just asked that IK Gujral be exiled ... LOL ... just what the Coulter type Yahoos would say ...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hi,
The truth-seeker is quite entertaining..
"The deterrence is much more likely to hold if Indian arsenal is credible wrt China and Pakistan. Otherwise if the deterrence breaks, India must have the capability to neutralize both China and Pakistan. For both these options enhancing the Indian arsenal is the only way to go."
Err... boss... the only one questioning the credibility of the nuke is *you*. I have not heard Pakistan or China say anything to this effect.
"3. Testing can cause short term damage to the economy."
And who is going to pay for that "short term damage"? - your father-in-law perhaps?
All these US based NRIs agitating for the bomb test now - they are the same people who think they "saved" the Indian economy from damage due to US sanctions in 1998.
Even if I assume that is true (which it isn't) - with the dollar dropping - these NRIs remitances are not going to go the same distance as before.
"1. Vajpayee declaring moratorium after 1998 tests, can be interpreted to mean Indian scientists needed time to prepare for the next round of tests."
Or it can be interpreted as the BJP government not wanting to antagonize its "natural allies" in America too much.
I sense these guys are putting LKA on a pedestal - tomorrow when he has to change his point of view - these people will turn on him too.
what do you make of hony webmaster withdrawing himself from discussions? was he nudged towards gitmo or what?
Maverick,
Kab tak DF ke peeche pade rahoge... You throw dirt at them and then they throw dirt at you... And the cycle of crap keeps going on...
Is there an alternative to DF? If no, then you can either create an alternative or participate in DF to make it a better place... If there is an alternative, then kindly enlighten...
Earlier there used to be good articles at your blog at fairly regular intervals.. Now whenever I come here its the same old childish "tu gadha, nahin tu gadha" talk..
Request you to revisit your core competence: post your views on important topics of national interest which gives noobs like me a fresh perspective..
Hi Anonymous,
I am happy he has stopped.
Pahari,
All in due time.
pahari,
the alternative is India-Forum - they have a good strategic forum.
Anonymous 10:43AM:
what do you make of hony webmaster withdrawing himself from discussions? was he nudged towards gitmo or what?
Obviously no one knows for sure, but I have to suspect something along those lines. But I'm a nasty suspicious SOB anyway.
Alok_N:
if India had an Ann Coulter equivalent, she would be the heroine of DF ...
some dude just asked that IK Gujral be exiled ... LOL ... just what the Coulter type Yahoos would say.
Exactly. This is a big part of my disgust with things in the last year or two -- the forum has sprouted a nasty little right-wing wannabe-fascist appendage. Small but painful and nasty, like a pus-filled pimple on the bum. There have been *numerous* posts by these twerps repeating (in obvious admiration) the venomous spewings of people like Coulter, Beck and The Best of Free Republic.
Hi Mav,
Now three very senior former DAE officials have come out against the deal as per rediff. If that is true, then that alone should be sufficient reason for not proceeding with this deal.
Dear Anonymous,
Yes I am aware that PKI, A. Gopalakrishnan and Dr. A. N. Prasad have indicated their dissatisfaction with the nuclear deal.
I would need to see the full text of their statement before I say anything more about it.
A.Gopalakrishnan has been attacking the establishment since he "retired"; you can find scores of such articles in The Hindu as well as those Leftist/Environazi publications. He has a gripe (that has nothing to do with the *Atomic Program*) with the folks who are running the show now. Anyway, his tirades grew tiresome after the first couple of shows in the circuit.
OTOH Iyengarji and Dr. Prasad are voices that are respected across the spectrum. Here's a thought: nobody did a broadside against PKI when he questioned yields in Shakti and Smiling Buddha.... and you don't hear even the pro-deal netizens shower gaali upon gaali on dissenting scientist. Well, except for the Online HyperIndians accusing that the GoI "intimidated" the DAE/Military (strange to see that one of the Scicom victims in that episode soon morphed into an archenemy!).
PS: There was a "Narcotics and Terror Linkages" url on Rediff and I jumped into it expecting a real good expose or analysis, like the ones Sheela Bhatt occasionally makes there. It was penned by Vicky Nanjappa but the article was quite superficial... prolly Sarfarosh or Charas portrayed that aspect in a better way! When are we going to have our own Loretta Napoleoni (no offense to Mav and Kgoan here but someone NEEDS to put it in the mainstream!)? At least Amitav Ghosh has made some kind of a start with his "Sea of Poppies". :(
-Anand K.
Internet forums as social associations self-select their members, so it is not suprising that a particular type of person will predominate in one. Look at this blog, and see the type of people who are gathering here. I think BRF was much better when it actually reflected India in all its diversity - but all golden ages do come to an end.
As for self censoring, I think if that is the path you would like to take, you should start with the Indian media, which has been far more destructive to national interests than any forum of anonymous nobodies. Then you can move onto the politicians and business interests as well.
Face it, your calls for self-censorship are incompatible with a democratic and free society. You are falling into the "Asian Trap" of not trusting the people to know their own interests.
Challenging the government, even vitriolically, is good for democratic progress - especially in a country like India where a small priority preys on the automatic deference accorded to them by the majority.
BTW - Why won't the government publicize the IAEA agreement? This is feeding the rumour mills.
> Internet forums as social associations self-select their members
well, DF seems to have collected superhumans ...
Some can design nuclear weapons in Excel ...
Raju boss can cause earthquakes by messing with the ionosphere ...
In general, quite consistent with the concept of Rakshak'ing India by posting JPegs on a website ...
:)
Dear Anonymous,
The mainstream media is the place for "free form debate".
BR was *never* a free forum for debate of that kind.
During the NDA period a number of leftist and pro-Cong(I) posters who tried to harass the government post Kargil - were "shaheeded" under one adminstrative pretext or another.
Around the same time - a number of people who went around embarrassing the NDA leadership by overt displays of sectarian sentiment (Hindu, Muslim whatever) during the Godhra-Ahmedabad communal rioting cycle were also sent packing.
A number of Pakistanis and Chinese who attempted to use the forum for their purposes were nudged off. If you ever get a chance ask your friends about what happened to a certain "bilal" who used to post on the forum circa 1999.
Anyone that openly criticised the Indian military or any officer of the military was quietly dispatched from the membership.
It is unlikely that any credible claim of neutrality can be made regarding BR's moderation policies which remain at the whim of the Admin.
It is a little difficult for me to make a claim of neutrality - because I was a party to many such decisions myself. And quite frankly I do not have a problem with moderated debate in general.
That said BR is a very tolerant place - a lot of shit can be said without fear. Deciding what shit to keep and what to delete is the Admin's job.
For all my sadness and anger - at the end of the day I still sympathetise with the Admin team.
Moderation is a difficult task.
My complaints here are mostly about two persistent moderation failure modes inside BR - the "Oblivious Admin" and the "Rogue Admin".
The "Oblivious Admin" is a case where the Admin do not as individuals or a collective - grasp the damage that certain kinds of debate can cause to the national interest.
The "Rogue Admin" is a case where a member of the Admin team goes off in pursuit of an idea to the exclusion of everything else. AFAIK there is no formal mechanism inside the team to deal with such behaviour.
The only antidote I can concieve this kind of problem is vigilance in the forum membership.
In its heydey - the 2000-2005 period, the forum attracted a higher quality of membership and an aggressive moderation effort kept the environment free of enemy provocations and meaningless distractions.
However after 2005 - there has been a shift in the forum behaviour. This is because a cult of jpeg worshippers has been actively courted by the website - the forum has come to be dominated by this vituperative and vocal minority.
As there is no plan to clean up this infestation of jpeg-idolators from the forum - the quality of forum discussion is slipping further - as one by one - the older posters are who knew what they were talking about are simply leaving the forum.
What you are hearing here is some of their lamentations.
If these lamentations have the desired effect - i.e. a clean up of the discussions on the forum - an end to this "Rang De Basanti" atmosphere that is taking hold on the forum - then I feel this blog can be shut down without any loss to anyone.
Hi Anonymous,
Regarding the statement of Dr. P K Iyengar, Dr. A. N. Prasad and Dr. A. Gopalakrishnan, I would like to say the following:
***
I thank Dr. P K Iyengar, Dr. A. N. Prasad and Dr. A. Gopalakrishnan for succinctly summarising the views of opponents of the Indo-US nuclear deal.
Though a number of these objections have been shown to misconcieved, the atmosphere of suspicion created by the USG's post-123 "Hyde Act" maneouver remains and consequently these objections refuse to die.
It is not clear if this atmosphere of suspicion (engineered by the NPA mouthpieces) will lift in the foreseeable future and as you correctly point out - this will cloud all nuclear trade with the US.
From this point of view - stalling the IAEA negotiation seems advisable as it offers a near perfect way to signal this suspicion to the Americans.
That being said, at the end of the day - there is considerable economic interest in open nuclear commerce with India.
Stalling the IAEA negotiation is unlikely to remove the atmosphere of suspicion surrounding the deal and such a move is likely to alienate economic interests in the deal.
Divorcing the economic and the political branches of thought is unsustainable in any context.
Hi,
Regarding the "IAEA text" not being made "public".
Err... somehow I fail to remember when in the past an "agreement" has been made "public" before signing.
If this happens *now* - it will be a complete novelty to me.
If the editor of the Hindu was not shown a copy of the Agreement - that doesn't mean that the "public" has not been shown. After all the Hindu's political leanings aren't exactly a secret.
That said here is something to think about :-
If I am hiding something it could be because I want to keep it away from your eyes or it could be because I want you to jump up and down and make an utter fool of yourself in public demanding that I tell you what I have hidden.
In this "you're hiding something" game - I look sinister for about ten seconds before it is "exposed" that I have nothing to hide - after that the person who accused me of "hiding something" looks like an hype-imaginative idiot for the rest of eternity.
well technically speaking the text of the 123 has been made public before signing it...
I never claimed BRF was a free space, but in conjunction with the other sites avaialble (including this one), it serves the purpose of giving voice to citizens. It goes around the corporate interests that control the main stream media. The place for freedom of expression is at the level closest to the roots. If the claims of BR are as idiotic as some claim, then the marketplace of ideas will deal with them accordingly. Indeed it may be already happening, given the flight of quality posters from BR.
Ignore the Hindu, we all know who N. Ram works for.
Not releasing the deal to its political partners is questionable politics by the Congress. This deal should have been sold as a all-party effort.
Blame the BJP for the recent trend in giving a political-slant to foreign affairs. They broke the consensus building mechanism. The Congress has compounded their error. The myth used to be that Indian parties squable like cats in a bag, but face the outside world with a united front - with the exception of the Communists.
Alok_n,
grow up, start your own blog instead of piggy backing on somebody else.
Hi Anonymous,
I think what you are seeing is an all party effort - both in India and in the US - it is the same story.
Every political party wants the deal but wants to get paid off more than the next one to make it happen.
The "deal" has been released to the public.
The text of the IAEA agreement has not been released because it has been common practice never to release the text of the agreement until it has been signed.
As with the US debate - there are allegations that this lack of transparency is something sinister etc... but lets see what it says after it has been signed.
It is a topsy turvy world when:
- The Left projects reflexive anti Americanism but then cohabitates with the NPA on every platform.
- The BJP opposes the deal but openly says it loves America despite the fact that Narendra Modi's visa is repeatedly denied.
- The Congress(I) which originally concieved India's maximalist position on nuclear affairs is keen to appear compromising.
- The people leveling accusing MMS, RC, AK, etc... of being US spies - all to a man - get their paychecks from US companies.
- The Pakistanis and Chinese - who have the most to lose if this agreement goes through are silent.
- The NPA who have never strayed an inch from the official line - now suddenly find a voice to criticise the office of the US President.
"It is a topsy turvy world when:
- The Left projects reflexive anti Americanism but then cohabitates with the NPA on every platform.
- The BJP opposes the deal but openly says it loves America despite the fact that Narendra Modi's visa is repeatedly denied.
- The Congress(I) which originally concieved India's maximalist position on nuclear affairs is keen to appear compromising.
- The people leveling accusing MMS, RC, AK, etc... of being US spies - all to a man - get their paychecks from US companies.
- The Pakistanis and Chinese - who have the most to lose if this agreement goes through are silent.
- The NPA who have never strayed an inch from the official line - now suddenly find a voice to criticise the office of the US President.
"
Hi Mav,
Thats a nice summary.
D for C, boss, if it makes you happy calling me whatever you want, please knock yourself out at my expense. Btw, you can also address me by name. Thats my real name.
See, I have followed BRF since around '98, and if I look upto some folks both admins and others (incl. mav here), its because, I feel that I have learnt immensely from them and that I have a great amount of respect for their views. I might not agree with all of their views, but I do respect them quite a bit. So call it what you want, but its something thats earned.
Now since its apparent that you want attention, why dont you start something on your own and see how you can take it forward. Since you can then become the bannerjee maybe you will get your own troop of sychophants. Sounds like a plan, no?
rgds
Pradeep.
> grow up, start your own blog instead of piggy backing on somebody else.
dear darpok anonymous,
Do you have a blog? If not, then by your definition you have to grow up too, no?
LOL ... mr. darpok giving advice on growing up is really rich ...
even so, what is so magical about growing up? ... will that make me a Jpeg Jingo?
:)
dear pradeep,
I do have a blog , I hope you have seen it.
On the larger issue of moderation , my web forum will have none of the following
1. One click bans
2. cliques
3. double standards
4. some are more equal than others
5. demagoguery
there'll be cooling off periods, bans that extend for a few weeks or a month. A lot more will have to be done by a member to get banned.
besides, discussions themselves will not be allowed to deteriorate. Transgressing members will be given the opportunity to apologize . failing which only, will action be taken against them.
And there won't be this private forum in the public domain BS either.
If it seems ( and it becomes quite apparent) that some members are co-ordinating attacks through offline discussions , mods will intervene.
Admins if they wish to participate in a discussion will have to let one of the other mods to look after that particular discussion.
As far as the question of wanting attention is concerned , who doesn't ?
Don't you?, don't your so called gurus?
everybody and anybody who bothers to spare time to write on the web , wants attention. Pure and simple.
"As far as the question of wanting attention is concerned , who doesn't Don't you?, don't your so called gurus?"
yup, they are all piggy-backing on Banner-jees of DF ...
they should all start their very own JPeg Jingo websites ...
:)
btw, I am now beginning to suspect that Darpok-jee is a Banner-jee and not a Chatter-jee ...
WOAH!
Heh Heh, talk about the line to be drawn when discussing strategic matters on the Internet. We have that old “Op Brasstack's Op Trident” popping up in another thread. (Never mind the fact that someone began that line of thought with “flank the Chinese through PoK” in the first place. People have been seeing too many movies of the cavalry storming down the hills or from the forests to save the day. Forth Eorlingaaaaaaaas!).
On that note I vaguely remember this top brass who wrote an article about how he “tipped off RG” about “General Sunderjee's true intentions”; apparently he was ordered to get his command secretly ready for invasion of Sindh by the Late General himself. A cpl of days later he ran into RG and Arun Nehru at a party and informally reported their readiness thinking that the Cabinet was backing the General. He writes that RG was struck speechless (displaying an obvious “Aha!” moment on why the Pakistanis and Americans were too rattled) and in an uncharacteristically frantic mode demanded further information and left the party immediately. A few days later you had those public announcements and klaripicashons on Brasstacks being “Just for a horror onlee!”.
I know.... too many holes in the story and way too difficult to believe. But I wonder what happened to the officer who wrote this piece. I mean, there were no more articles from him AFAIK and I don't even remember his name. But then Sunderjee had a LOT of enemies in the force and the Govt, there are rumors on him breaking Brigadier Vijay Nair's career, his spats with Gen Vaidya, the inertia he faced when he brought out his new ideas at Mhow and total fall out with RG following Brasstacks. RR apparently latched on to some of these sources, prolly became p1ssed at Sunderjee being patriotic himself and all and brought out that “expose”.
Maybe the same thing is happening in BR now with all this roaring Jai Bharatmata anti-DAE/GoI tirade; but Kahan RR aur Kahan ye DOO-Jingo log as someone noted right here? Still, as we say back home “Neerkoli kadichalum atthazham mudangum!” {For the un initiated: There's this non venomous water-snake back home which usually resides in paddy-fields.... and which is about as threatening as a rubber chicken. Nevertheless, if it bites you you have to go hungry for the rest of the day for gastronomical reasons.}
-Anand K
"As far as the question of wanting attention is concerned , who doesn't ?"
OK. I agree. Anyway, this is a digression. If its worth being heard, it will be heard and discussed.
A pointer to your blog pls.
Pradeep.
Btw, on a lighter note again -
There are bannerjee's, chatterjee's and bannedjee's.
Try saying that in a punjabi accent :)
Pradeep.
The larger issue is of this self styled strategic community which has emerged under the auspices of BRF . At the end of the day its just a bunch of NRIs taking advantage of what was then (still is for most people in the developing world) an emerging called the WWW.
while I would definitely commend them for having pioneered in creating a space, they kind of lost track when they tried to turn what is essentially a military content website into something that is one stop shopping for everything on India.
I have followed BRF since 1998 as well. However, quite frankly I never used to pay much attention to the strategic issues or the technology and economic forums. it was an oversight on my part and perhaps if I had read some of Herr Doktor's pearls on religion before, I would have realized the turn that forum had taken and wouldn't have bothered to join.
the strategic issues section is just a place where people echo their pet peeves in the most "jingoistic " language possible ad they have a cheer leader admin to "guide" them in this wonderful exercise.
the economic forums are dominated by MBA type yahoos who have problems with actual economists and policy makers . they typically espouse yuppie BS about every economic issue and celebrate consumerist dictums.
what happens as a result of the strategic affairs and Tech and Eco forums is that more serious contributors in these domains , simply do not come to this website. Good for them, I might add!
and so you simply have IT vity jingos discussing how real estate development is good for India and how cafe coffee days are the way forward.
So my dear Pradeep, there is no broad expertise, as it were . its just that you don't hear more serious opinions from a particular domain which is why you think your "gurus" have taught you a lot.
they can teach you a lot about military stuff . and they will do well to stick to their core competency , as it were.
Having said this , there are some who aren't that Knawligible about mil affairs either, which is why they spend most of their time in demagoguery .
"the economic forums are dominated by MBA type yahoos who have problems with actual economists and policy makers . they typically espouse yuppie BS about every economic issue and celebrate consumerist dictums."
there are two notable exceptions: Suraj and SSridhar ...
Just like Gerard on Nukes, these two are very sound in their knowledge base and don't post BS opinion on technical matters ...
credit where credit is due, even on DF ... :)
http://jingoworld.blogspot.com/
yeh man, there are 7-10 posters ( depending on the season) who are definitely good.
of course there are even more looney tune forums on the web , in which demographic experts want Hindus to have 3-4 kids on an average to maintain parity with their muslim counterparts.
Now, revolutionaries through time have been criticized for indulging in behalfism. our jpeg social engineers are seeking to buck this trend. They want others to literally "do it" on their behalf.
this isn't called revolution its called devolution. democratizing a just cause onree.
yup, there are the jokers on India-Forum ...
those genius brainiacs told me that Urdu is the "language of invaders" and I should be ashamed of using it ...
of course, they said this using the English language ...
I don't think that these jokers understand irony ... :)
I believe Ann Coulter would want these NRI Rakshaks to go packing ... LOL!
yeah , for these blokes everybody is a modernist coward who is ridiculing their "solutions " out of pure spite.
they talk about a half baked society but don't realize how incomplete they themselves are , especially when handling "subtler" emotions such as irony.
alok_n said...
yup, there are the jokers on India-Forum ...
those genius brainiacs told me that Urdu is the "language of invaders" and I should be ashamed of using it ...
of course, they said this using the English language ...
I don't think that these jokers understand irony ... :)
I believe Ann Coulter would want these NRI Rakshaks to go packing ... LOL!
Well Alok_N ji,
I think it's time then for India Forum and DF to unite.
I once wrote on DF that a language (in this case English) belonged to the people who used it. And since surveys show that India would have the highest English speaking population by 2010 (BBC) it was time to throw out of window all the Bullshit about Queen's English.
As is usual, I was immediate pounced upon by the shouting brigade and charged with having lost my Indic roots and being corrupted by Western civilisational influences etc!
All of this off course in immaculate English. When I pointed this out the lead attack drone - who has been thankfully put to sleep by the good Doctor - went ballastic.
And the messaihs in the forum who push conspiracy theories with their morning crap came in with the big guns! :-)
So there you have it. Urdu is the language in invaders and English is the language of the decaying Western civilisation. How about sign language?
As the "phormer jwournalist" netizen from la-la land (who prolly can't pen a grocery list without cursing Moron-Swamis and Nehru and Gandhiji in the process) uvaacha-ed, it's time the "old and jaded members" to step aside and let the new and young voices fill the halls of BRF.
So let us each blacken the face, garland himself with ancient hawai chappals, mount an ass (I mean the ones that are grey and eats grass!)and set of into the desert.
-Anand K
Hi,
On an unrelated note, I fear in the kingdom of Sand, the decision to boost oil production has met .. shall we say ... resistance.
Apparently a preventive security measure has been put into place - hundreds of arrests.
DF , IF unite ho gaye, to hum logo ki aur masti . double the fun at the same site. talk about economies of scale:)
drone attacks will also scale up commensurately, especially given the fact that IF dudes don't believe in family planning.:)
but the ultimate triple sundae will be Abdul def forum somehow integrating (my SAARC dream onlee) with the other two.
that will definitely screw up our targetting system (jpeg jingo lingo) given that I'll have a sensory overload.
too many jokes, meltdown! meltdown!
while giving credit where credit is due, let's not forget the B.E.N.I.S. Dhagaa ... clearly the best contribution of DF to the world at large ...
-------------------
the self-flagellation over "Deal is good/Deal is bad" continues ...
arre bhai log, Deal is just an agreement ... the Good/Bad part comes afterwords ... in terms of actions initiated by GoI and/or private entities ...
there is no good/bad if no *follow-up deals* are made ... and the people who know what these deals would be are not you or me or Banner-jees ... these are folks who would be putting down money to purchase items and/or sell items ...
the 1000th post of the type "I am now convinced that the deal is bad" is worthy of my patented comparison ... they shed less light on the issue than does a vacuum explosion in Pindi on the dark side of the moon ...
here are some nice excerpts from
NUCLEAR POWER GENERATION - TARGETS AND ACHIEVEMENTS
25th Report
Presented to Lok Sabha on 7.3.2002
Laid in Rajya Sabha on 7.3.2002
excerpt I
-----------
While India has limited resources of uranium, it has one of the largest resources of thorium in the world. The utilisation of these energy resources for electricity generation in the long term is envisaged through the strategy of a three-stage nuclear power programme of Pressurised Heavy Water Reactors (PHWRs) in the first stage, Fast Breeder Reactors (FBRs) in the second stage and thorium-uranium233 based reactors in the third stage. It is also proposed to take up a programme of addition of Light Water Reactor (LWR) units in the first stage based on imported technology with the intent to progressively indigenise it in the long term.
Excerpt II
------------
The proposed capacity addition includes Pressurised Heavy Water Reactors (PHWR), Light Water Reactors (LWRs) and Fast Breeder Reactors (FBRs). The LWR Programme would be based on imports (8 Units each of 1000 MWe included in the 20000 MWe programme) with the long-term objective of progressively indigenising the setting up of LWR units.
Excerpt III
--------------
The programme of setting up PHWR, LWR, FBR (excluding PFBR and AHWR) is proposed to be financed through a combination of Government budgetary support, domestic borrowings, Russian/foreign credit for LWR units and internal surplus. PFBR and AHWR are proposed to be set up based on full budgetary support. For the 20,000 MWe programme, budgetary support from Government of India is required for setting up nuclear power projects till the end of 11th Plan. Thereafter, commencing construction of 1000 MWe nuclear power project each year can be financially self supporting (apart from continuing schemes of the 20000 MWe programme) from the end of 12th Plan taking into account availability of internal surpluses from the anticipated nuclear power capacity at that time combined with borrowings.
excerpt IV
------------
In order that nuclear power grows at a faster rate to reach a share of 10%, it is essential that larger capacity nuclear power reactors are set up. It is in this context that introduction of second line of LWRs with 1000 MWe unit size as an additionality, apart from PHWRs, is important. The first 2x1000 MWe units are being set up at Kudankulam in co-operation with the Russian Federation. Based on the global political situation in regard to easing of restrictive controls in the area of nuclear power, more units are proposed to be set up in the country. Even if more LWRs do not materialise for any reason, PHWRs are proposed to be set up in their place. In addition, work is in progress for increasing the rating of PHWR units from 540 MWe to 680 MWe by allowing partial boiling in the channels. Moreover, the FBR programme will also be undertaken. With all these measures, efforts will be made to reach a nuclear share of about 7% by the year 2020.
excerpt V
------------
Emphasising the importance of setting of higher capacity projects for increasing the share of nuclear power, the Secretary, DAE stated during evidence as under:-
“We also have kept a place for the advanced light water reactor technologies imported from abroad. We have made a beginning in this direction through the initiation of two reactors at Kudankulam. These are 1000 MWe VVER type reactors which are similar to the more popular pressurised water reactors. We are also working on several other possibilities. Of course, these are in the realm of diplomacy. As you know, there are problems in the area of nuclear technology transfer. But some efforts are on. If that succeeds, we can have more such reactors brought on stream to enhance the share of nuclear power”.
face it my dear scaremongers,
DAE would want to have LWRs in their portfolio.
Moreover DAE has actually done much more for the second stage than jpeg jingos ever will.
the formation of BHAVINI shows serious intent at IGCAR . one of these days this company will grow to be as big as as the holding company itself.
From the main nuclear utility's perspective the deal makes great sense. their mandate is to increase power generation pure and simple and LWRs are a great way of augmenting capacity quickly.
LWRs and second stage go hand in hand.
>>Alok_N said:
I missed that gem ... but, hey, why not carry a good thing forward? ...
let's seek a 100,000 GigaTon bum so that even if it fizzles, we will have a 10,000 GigaTon dhamaka ...
:)
>>> hmm..but.. ChandiPrasad has talked about non-scalability of that design .... if those 17 Mev neutrons saw that "highly non linear" curve they are most likely to dabao their dum and turn back turning all that helium back to Li6..
Anyway .. nice to find this site and see your posts...has been a long time since I seen your posts.
Alok_N:
" those genius brainiacs told me that Urdu is the "language of invaders" and I should be ashamed of using it ..."
You're joking, right? They said you should be ashamed to use Urdu?
Anand K are you refering to Lt.Gen P N Hoon?
Abhisheik
Hi Dilbert,
"You're joking, right? They said you should be ashamed to use Urdu?"
yes, I am banned from that braniac website as well ... just for that ...
pesh hai:
Ashq aakhon mein kab nahin aataa?
Lahoo aataa hai jab nahin aataa
ashq = tears, lahoo = blood ... you make the call ...
adab arz hain Mian log ... :)
"if those 17 Mev neutrons saw that "highly non linear" curve they are most likely to dabao their dum and turn back turning all that helium back to Li6.."
hi anonymous,
neutrons of 14 MeV are grateful for that faaltu 3 MeV ... but, regardless, yes the non-linearity is scary ...
:)
wonders of wonders ...
some Chatter-jees are now Banner-jees ...
I don't recognize the names except Suraj boss, of course ...
and possibly Rahul M who I confuse with Sanjay M perhaps because the clueless quotient is invariant ...
let's see if these new Banner-jees restore some sense ...
while we are in the mode of "language of invaders", here is something for the braniacs ... perhaps, they will learn to admire India's heritage which includes Urdu ... pesh hai from my homey, the one and only Firaq:
sitaaron sae ulajhataa jaa rahaa hoon
shab-e-furqat bahut ghabraa rahaa hoon
terae gham ko bhi kuch bahalaa rahaa hoon
jahaan ko bhi samjhaa rahaa hoon
yaqin yae hai haqiqat khul rahi hai
gumaan yae hai ki dhokhae khaa rahaa hoon
agar mumkin ho lae lae apani aahat
khabar do husn ko main aa rahaa hoon
khabar hai tujhako ai zabt-e-muhabbat
terae haathon mein lutataa jaa rahaa hoon
asar bhi lae rahaa hoon taeri chup kaa
tujhae kaayal bhi kartaa jaa rahaa hoon
bharam terae sitam kaa khul chukaa hai
main tujhasae aaj kyon sharmaa rahaa hoon
terae pahallu mein kyon hotaa hai mahasoos
ki tujhasae door hotaa jaa rahaa hoon
jo ulajhi thi kabhi aadam kae haathon
woh gutthi aaj tak sulajhaa rahaa hoon
muhabbat ab muhabbat ho chali hai
tujhae kuch bhuulataa-saa jaa rahaa hoon
yeh sannaataa hai merae paanv ki chaap
"Firaq" apani kuch aahat paa rahaa hoon
this applies to my views of my relationship with DF ...
only those conversant with the language of the invaders will understand ...
adab arz hain Mian log ...
:)
>> Re Abhisheik
Bingo!
I just did a web search and found that he made similar comments on Rediff in 1999 (somehow I missed that back then!). However that the article I referred to was in a vernacular news magazine in the mid 90s.. some time before the internet explosion. I now recall that in the print article the author claimed he was attached to a unit in the Southern Command and stationed in Pune HQ (PS: I recall this particular factoid 'coz in those clueless li'l schoolboy years I wondered how Pune could be "South" and I stormed to my hapless ex-Fauji Gramps for immediate clarifications). In the rediff article it says Western Command.... and also omits references to Arun Nehru.
Bhat is thees?! Moi memory failing already onree or something else?
-Anand K
Folks,
is it just me, or is there some serious jealousy being displayed by some long-in-the-tooth Chatter-jees about the choice of Banner-jees? ...
another arbitrary move by Banner-jees-of-yore to promote Banner-jees-of-tomorrow ...
Rishi
Post subject: Re: Indian Economy:
Joined: 29 Sep 2002 06:01 am
Posts: 163
Location: Kerala
Sanjay M wrote:
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2008/gb20080625_461564.htm
Hi Sanjay,
Can you post a brief precis of what exactly you are linking to and why? This will let forum members know why you think a particular link is important/relevant to the discussion.
Thanks
------------------
Neo-Banner-jee on Neo-Bannerjee ...
these jokers do have the potential for fun ... not all is lost yet ... :)
This comment has been removed by the author.
it was rather easy to predict that Rah m would become a banner-jee.
herr doktor whilst replying to an "observation" made by RAh M in the boot.. thread observed that Rah M was " admin material himself".
subsequently one could observe Rah M taking on a more "assertive" role during some of the discussions.
I knew he was on song to become a banner-jee .. . in any case the main question is, did Rah M rise through the ranks of Guboing or was he anointed as an admin due to his offline connections with the private grouping that runs a public website.
Alok_N ,
what is a "brief" precis?
A brief precis is what a Banner-jee can demand ... ask Rishi ...
[that part of the post was a cut&paste from DF]
A brief precis is what a Banner-jee can demand ... ask Rishi ...
[that part of the post was a cut&paste from DF]
replying to an "observation" made by RAh M in the boot.. thread Ducking for COver:
...observed that Rah M was " admin material himself".
subsequently one could observe Rah M taking on a more "assertive" role ...
...in any case the main question is, did Rah M rise through the ranks of Guboing or was he...
Arre bhai, have mercy on non-akalmands like me. These ishaaraas are too obscure for me to follow. Who is Rah M? Rishi? Sanjay M?
I don't know much about the former, but Sanjay M is a silly pompous wannabe-neocon gasbag. IMHO, of course.
Arrey dilbert bhai
Herr Doktor= my favourite banner-jee=
dhabba/dabba on Bhole Baba's name.
Rah M= possible phorum climber = neo banner-jee
for details see the "welcome to new mods thread"
J^3= my favourite hypersonic mullah
Before anything else, the word
Bharat should be dropped from DF's name.
they hardly represent Bharat. if anybody thinks that India that is Bharat can progress without taking a certain section of the population along with them then they must be in DF ooops Cloud cuckoo land.
it should more appropriately be called the Bahut Rabid forum.
This will explain Sanjay M succinctly ...
Everytime a rock is turned over on DF, we have the following reactions:
1. Acharya claims its an EJ crawling out.
2. Raju claims its an Alien.
3. Then Raju and Acharya agree that it is a Rothschild/Rockefeller.
4. NRao claims its Henry Hyde pushing GNEP.
finally ...
5. Sanjay M agrees with them but calls it an "Atlanticist" ...
:)
don't forget herr Doktor , who says that the Alien/atlanticist/EJ has plausible deniability to all of the above since he was part of a "core" in his last life.....
it's all cognitive dissonance onlee
Good sense is dawning on DF faster than I would have imagined ...
"BRF is now a rut in which some people are comfortable. -- Shiv"
>>>neutrons of 14 MeV are grateful for that faaltu 3 MeV .
That 17 Mev figure was from DF it self.
May be DAE scientists assumed that figure.. no wonder that was a fizzle “irregradless”
of that something-something-instability ...
Any way some one mentions Rahul or Priyanka’ss name , and there is a chain reaction of messages.. with intermediate products like:
"It is only too well known that Sonia often relies on close family — Rahul, Priyanka and son-in-law Robert Vadra — to firm up critical decisions."
“How can foreign policy of a one billion country be decided by a family of three people”
“Foreign policy is best when decided by Foreigners.”
Go figure!
Even this blog seems to be suffering from BRF phenomenon of low S/N ratio.
Anyways:
Are there any plans to bring online the uranium mines yet? Does anyone know if DAE plans to exploit them given the shortage we now have?
If anyone can point me towards a resource, I would be most grateful.
dear anonymous I am sure you must have heard of bandhurang mine and Turamdih processing unit.
the mine at moulidih is also nearing fruition.
Please see the latest issue of nuclear India etc
As far as herr doktor's recent comments in his favourite core thread is concerned:
Shameful hypocrisy!
100 chuhe khake billi chali haj karne.
these calls for direction are simply web politicking on Herr Doktor's part. Moreover after dishing out the DF treatment to me in the Bangladesh thread , it seems he has developed cold feet.
if anybody remembers that thread , they would also remember what kind vituperative language was allowed by this soul searching admin against a particular religion, its prophet and yours truly.
But I haven't forgotten, not yet....
This is turning into the sour grapes blog for BR rejects. Why not do something productive like the blog master instead of acting like spurned lovers.
herr doktor told me
"Nobody really cares who you are and where you come from"
after that he made his infamous post about DF being a old boy's club , some people being more equal than the
rest etc etc.
well, let's see...
mr anonymous from the vineyard,
do you have an agenda?
if yes, thank you for your advise.
if not,
then thank you very much.
Dear Maha Productive anonymous-jee,
>>>>>If anyone can point me towards a resource, I would be most grateful.
yes, try this onlee:
www.google.com
asking kindergarten questions on a blog is not "productive" ...
now, run along and be productive on google instead of posing on this blog ... :)
D for C,
>>>>>>>>>>> "Nobody really cares who you are and where you come from"
after that he made his infamous post about DF being a old boy's club , some people being more equal than the
rest etc etc.
Banner-jees are higher beings ... they don't have to make sense to Chatter-jees ...
as the Bard would have said:
"the fault dear Chatter-jee lies not in the Banner-jees but in you for being an underling"
this blog is for Chatter-jees to come and express themselves freely away from the tyranny of Banner-jees ...
Kyaa samjhae Maha Productive anonymous-jee?
Df actually epitomizes the colonized hindu mindset.
this mindset identifies well wishers and serious contributors as prime enemies and does its best to turn them into the same, thereby completing a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Listen my dear fanatic NRI rakshaks,
you have managed to anatagonize an admin and a respected poster who I know for a fact used to bring
considerable flavour and depth to your site.
you have also managed to piss off
a br reject/ wkk /puki/ chinese troll/ NPA piece of shit,
Enjoy it while you can...
Maha productive anonymous jees are out here to give "advice" onlee...
Here are some DF dictums:
1. "we hate pukis"
so, "let's be like pukis"
2. "we love Kalam"
so, "let's make sure another one like him is never born".
Talk about Lahori logic...
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