Whoever is dumping rupees, please stop - right now
This is creating a major fluctuation in the currency markets, and causing a very delicate Nash equilibrium to shift in extremely unpredictable ways.Whatever you think this will achieve - it wont. Whatever model you are using to estimate your gains from this - I assure you - that model is crap.
All this will do is create yet another a major crisis that will rebound on everyone. The global financial system is very weak right now - and it will not withstand too many such shocks. There is enough pressure due to all the pipeline Jihads in the middle east and Lord knows there is way too much pressure on the coal side.
Messing around with a major currency now will make that entire business in 2008 will seem like a walk in the park.
Please stop - this is a very bad direction to take things in.
posted by maverick @ 8:39 PM
623 Comments:
As the only viable objective in the region is political instability in Syria - a few airstrikes/cruise missile attacks shouldn't really be too much effort.
Ok, done. I was the one doing a major amount of dumping, but reading this has stopped me in my tracks. It gave me goosebumps in fact. What have I done I thought. But it is too late. I could dump all the dollars I bought, but then all that dumping will hurt the US economy too right? Besides, I already spent some of it on real-estate, missile stocks etc. But next time I will be more careful.
Lol...
Hurting the US economy by dumping would require competing with the Fed+USG combination.
Sometimes I really miss the good old days when you could stop all economic problems dead in their tracks by picking up a few money lenders and pouring molten gold down their throats.
India is buying way too much oil, coal and crap from China and not selling enough to the US.
People are so desperate for any currency that can be used to buy all those things that they are dumping rupees.
GoI can't sell dollars (or any other currency) beyond a point because that forex reserve is used to ballast key trades.
The USG can't stop printing dollars, so it is a perfect storm a' la 1991.
People are buying the dollar with 66 rupees today and selling the dollar for 68 rupees tomorrow.
It is turning into a fucking free for all.
I know that folks here have mixed feelings about Ram Guha ... but here he is writing about a mutual friend and mentor - Bhargava Saab ... the three of us played many a game of bridge together ...
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-features/tp-sundaymagazine/the-noblest-calling/article1436880.ece
That is a beautiful story.
Maverick - will there be a renewed seeking of refuge in real assets - physical gold? - knowing that the NSA and other alphabet soup cos can potentially wipe out almost any nations financial and stock market systems?
Hello Nanana,
I don't really understand the gold market but it seems like panicky investors flock to gold whenever they sense a market instability coming, but then the supply rises and the price falls.
As things stand - if there is instability in the ME due to an imminent American attack on Syria - then the price of oil should rise - purely on nations like India buying oil to stock up against disruption.
When the price of oil goes up - the market as a whole becomes unstable - as companies have to fork out more money for oil and that causes quarterly profits to nose dive so investors rush to buy gold driving up the price of gold.
That is where I get confused.
Only so many people can buy gold - even in a disorganized investment sector like India - before the production of gold goes up driving down the price.
Similarly - the instability in the ME cannot continue indefinitely - at some point in time, the production of oil in non-ME regions kicks in and the effect of the instability on supply drops off.
This gives us a kind of time band in which the effect is most pronounced - a few weeks of instability - where the crunch is most severely felt.
I hate to sound like this - as I don't ever want to suggest that dumping the rupee is a good idea - but if people keep buying oil and coal right now and let the effective price of oil and coal against the rupee rise - it will have the dual effect of leaching gold out of the disorganized investment sector into a more organized investment framework and it will effectively ensure that the price of oil goes up even in *dollar* terms. This amounts to an effective devaluation of the dollar which force a global drive towards diminished dependence on oil and coal.
Both of those things will be beneficial for India and for the US and most other nations on earth.
There is a silver lining here - *IF AND ONLY IF* dumping is stopped. People who go around buying dollars today and selling them tomorrow - aren't doing any good.
If you make dollars today - then buy oil or coal with it - don't convert it back into rupees - that doesn't help anyone.
Essentially buy oil *NOT* gold.
I want to be really clear about this.
There is no sense in the RBI intervening in the rupee's slide.
It is best if the people who are buying dollars buy oil and coal with it and then sell that domestically at a price that reflects the rupee-dollar exchange rate.
Yes there will be inflation - but it should pull precious metals like Gold out of India's private stashes and bring that into a more investable resource.
Right now the Gold mostly serves as a psychological barrier against a recession. It serves very little useful purpose - if it can come into play as a ballast in the real-estate market or the bulk food commodities market - I feel it will be much more productive.
The high internal price of oil and coal will drive the economy towards higher efficiency usage and better production quality.
By the grace of God and Gayatri - India will find itself in a better place in a year's time.
The dollar will reset to a more appropriate value after the Syrian situation progresses to its logical conclusion and after Iran goes nuclear.
I want gold to replace black rupees in the market.
I hope I am getting that point across.
The black currency market is too troublesome.
Hmm... wait until diplomacy fails to bomb Syria.
What is this?
Backpedal city?
Aah.. the wonders of the beltway never cease.
I was all set to watch hell rain on Assad, I even had my favourite brand of popcorn sitting on my file folder full of gold futures I had purchased yesterday in the hope that gold will shoot up in a few days time but wtf is this... backpedaling at this hour?
People are going to be pissed.
All those senators and the like who are objecting are just griping because they haven't had time to buy gold futures like I have...
Ridiculous.
http://www.memri.org/report/en/print5587.htm
dated but decent summary of such matters as one might find interesting.
btw - since then - Major Haroon Ashiq has been released by the ATC court for lack of evidence.
I think the C-130J's are worth the money.
It is a good idea to buy more even if they are not used for their intended purpose - they will get used in Civ Aid ops.
But with all those people who were selling Rupees to buy dollars who the fug was merrily buying Rupees in exchange for dollars? I never really figured that one out.
Hi Bennendose,
I think it is mostly people who participated in currency loops.
Most of these are just ordinary folks either traveling to India, or people who reside outside India but run businesses in India were buying the rupees.
The problem is a group of people that were deliberately looping currency transactions merely to make profits. These are a small fraction of the professional currency trading market. They are always there and their activities are usually irrelevant but in a crisis situation like this, they can become a problem.
This is the beginning of a difficult period in India's economic development. The currency is presently inappropriately valued and it will continue a gradual reset against international benchmarks (rupee exchange rates) as well as against internal mile makers (i.e. inflation, salaries etc...). A reckoning is coming where India will have to face the fact that it is paying too much for coal and oil, and paying its labour too little. I think many people realise that India's labour pool is NOT infinite, given the resource constraints on the infrastructure end, this situation is going to become more and more obvious.
I don't know how exactly this will happen, but in the interests of national security, it is best if currency mischief is actively discouraged.
Hello Bennedose,
I think we need to get that gold out of people's bank lockers and into a capitalized resource that we can use for ballasting infrastructural development.
If currency devaluation is a way to get to that goal, then that is acceptable to me.
This alleged attack on PAF airbase in Sargodha is a claim by Tehrik-e-Taliban-e-Pakistan.
http://tinyurl.com/l2nqud5
Is this claim credible? If this attack really happened, how come we didn't hear about it in the media? Hard to believe you can keep something like this secret.
Bohemian Gravity ..
Physicists and music lovers will definitely enjoy this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rjbtsX7twc#t=354
Dear Dilbert,
That is Sararogha not Sargodha.
Srarogha/Sararogha is in SWA. It sits on the Tank-Makin road which leads to the Afghan border. This road follows the outline of the Tank Zam water body.
SWA is one of the major areas where the TTP has established a base. Somehow an uneasy truce between the Mehsud and Waziri tribesmen is maintained and a TTP organization repeatedly grows back in these regions despite several Pakistani Army offensives.
At last count some 3 divisions of PA troops entered the area in 2009. A massive establishment was set up about one click away from the main market area of Saraogha to house the troops that were to remain in the area. The were helipads constructed there also.
To make life more comfortable for the troops development funds were poured into Sararogha They constructed all manner of cadet colleges, parks etc... there. The hope was to soften up the locals and make them receptive of the military presence there.
I don't know what to make of the report. It is not implausible, but there has been such a steady increase in the PA investment in the region that it is difficult to fathom how such a large set back would occur today. A few years ago, I would have said - yes the report is most likely true. Today I feel with all the artillery they have moved into the region, any Taliban force forming up in the lowlands below the HQ would be sized up and shelled long before any suicide bombers got to the perimeter.
That said the line of sight from the base is probably not perfect and if the trend towards desertion and defection in the PA/FC ranks is still high enough, an attack of this kind might succeed.
There is imo a 50/50 chance the TTP aren't just pulling this out of their arse.
BTW.. I am just reading through SSS's book on the last decade in Pakistan. It helps put most of what we were seeing out there in perspective.
Some quick notes on the region.
The lay of the land in the SWA is as follows.
There are two major water bodies. These are the Gomal and Tank rivers. These bodies are fed by tributaries form the mountains in the Suleiman range. All major transit routes in the region are along the rivers.
The population is mainly Waziri, Mehsud, Burki and Sulaimankhel Pathans. The Waziris have a slight edge over the Mehsud in the area. The Burki and Mehsud typically support the Pakistan Army and fill its ranks. The Suleimankhail are not very powerful.
The nearest point on the Afghan side is Shakin. One road leaves Shakin towards the Shakai valley. In the valley one road branches to Wana and another goes to Kaniguram and Makin.
Another area which is close to the Pak-Afghan border is Dwa-Toi. This area can be accessed via a road leading from Makin-Ramzak-Gardai-Datta khel post. To cross from Dwa-Toi to the Afghan side of the border probably requires the use of a guide to take you through the mountains.
Rule of thumb in these parts is whichever tribe has a sizable portion of land lining the road - taxes whatever goes up or down the road. Also which ever tribe lines the mountains can has detailed knowledge of local geography and can provide a guide to help you get across.
The rivulets in the area flood regularly making passage through certain parts impossible.
Seriously - it is worth it to sit with a map and plot all the points on it.
A drone hit map is available on GE as a KMZ that should tell you what the critical routes in the region are.
If one can remove drone attacks on a seasonal basis - then you can also get a good sense of how many routes in the region are accessible in what season.
Watched Droh Kaal on youtube yesterday.
Had a religious experience recalling the days of old.
What a beautiful movie!
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/Chandrasekhar/a-speculative-attack-on-the-rupee/article5065026.ece
Oh... someone already said the same thing.
For those interested ..
This is an amazing collection of maps showing racial diversity, or lack thereof, across the country. Check out the maps of various cities and be sure to see the US map at the end. You can go anywhere in the country and zoom in almost to the street level. Each dot on the map is one person.
http://www.wired.com/design/2013/08/how-segregated-is-your-city-this-eye-opening-map-shows-you/
Amber G,
That Bohemian Gravity video is friggin brlliant
did you guys know about this?
I didn't
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/20/usaf-atomic-bomb-north-carolina-1961
http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html
zoom map
The situation in the Westgate mall complex is very grim.
The number of casualties is quite high.
I suspect the coordination is being carried out over cell phone as it was in Bombay on 26/11.
An interesting report is of one of the "arab" attackers changing clothes and slipping out of the complex as a civilian victim.
This suggests that there was an event coordinator on site. This is unusual, as no such person was on site in Bombay on 26/11 afaik. This has never come up in the discussions on 26/11. Either the tactical approach has changed for whatever reason, or something was missed in Bombay.
It is a good idea to send a team to Kenya at the earliest to glean details. As some Indian nationals were killed, an investigation is warranted.
Surely the FBI will be sending a team down there, the GoI should not hold back.
The Kenyans are now part of the same tragedy that has befallen India.
The tweets from the HSM and HSM2 accounts claiming responsibility for the attack by Al Shahbab are interesting.
They remind me of the emails from IM claiming responsibility for the attack on 26/11.
The second tweet from HSM_2 is very intriguing as it states that "7 of the attackers" were trained at a "Blackwater facility in North California".
That is bizarre because there is no Blackwater facility in "North California". The plans for a facility in California were abandoned several years ago and the only site that Blackwater continues to use in North Carolina.
I stand corrected - the attackers are most likely using VoIP from the Mall's own internet.
Here is what one has on the attackers so far.
They appear to have been moving around in 5 person sticks. There appear to have been three sticks in total.
The members of two sticks had on checkered keffiyeh - again very reminiscent of the "red band" that Kasab et.al. wore to camouflage their Pakistani origins.
Two of the attackers are described as wearing black turbans.
There is at least one "Somali" looking terrorist described.
At least one "Arab" looking terrorist is described as having "changed clothes" and escaped the mall via one of the entrances by pretending to be a victim.
At least one the attackers was wounded but later died in hospital.
Some attackers and an unknown number of hostages have been localized to a supermarket inside the mall on the first floor.
There has been one very large explosion inside the complex a few hours ago.
It took Al-Shahab some 8 hours to first claim responsibility for the attack.
1) Stick 1 (entered via mall main entrance)
Stick Leader - A woman of unknown nationality.
4x attackers.
Killed the guards and shot non-muslims in the entrance area.
2) Stick 2 (entered via underground parking lot).
Killed the static security team there which is usually responsible for detecting car bombs.
3) Stick 3 (entered via ?)
present location unknown.
FWIW - I don't think the attackers are Somali/As Shahab. I think these are the usual suspects from the other side of the border with a few Arabs and others thrown in for local colour.
Africa news had this profile some months ago.
http://africanewsonline.blogspot.com/2012/01/portrait-of-jihadist-born-and-bred-in.html
The keffiyeh being described is seen in SITE photos of Ahmad Iman Ali (http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2012/01/shabaab_names_new_le.php)
Another name that will soon come back into focus is the Pumwani Islamist Muslim Youth Centre (MYC) .
This entity seen as a front for As Shahab in Kenya providing manpower and financial support.
I am sorry - it is Harkat ul Shahbab Mujaheddin.
Not As Shahab as written in earlier posts here.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/kenya-attack-power-struggle-al-shabaab
" reflects the outcome of a brutal power struggle within al-Shabaab that has brought the group's hardline global jihadist wing to the fore."
It appears Ahmad Abdi Godane, the man who merged Al Shahbaab with Al Qaida is consolidating his power inside the organization by murdering and evicting rival faction heads.
What we may be seeing is his first gift to Al Qaida.
A module had attempted such an attack but it was broken up by Kenyan security forces.
A fresh attempt appears to have been successfully mounted after the earlier attempt was stopped.
An unknown number of fidayeen holding an unknown number of people hostage in a large building with lots of places to hide and booby trap.
That is what the Kenyans are facing.
That is what the NSG faced on 26/11.
Dear friends, this is the same terrible story - written in Kenyan blood this time.
There is a persistent account of a woman, thought to be one Samantha Lewthwaite participating in the attack.
okay - the numbers appear to be stabilizing at 69 dead and 63 potential hostages.
more detail.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/21/nairobi-shopping-centre-terror-attack
"Minutes earlier two vehicles had screeched up outside the front of Westgate and a dozen gunmen, and at least one woman, jumped out. Jomo, who was in the outdoor car park opposite the centre saw 10 attackers split into two groups, one running up the steps and into the main pedestrian entrance. The other team opened fire and ran around to the vehicle entrance at the side of the building, hurling grenades."
Westgate Mall is Israeli owned. That is why an Israeli security team was available on such short notice.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/23/kenya-westgate-mall-siege-live
live feed.
Large explosions heard and smoke rising 3 minutes ago.
I hope the Kenyan security forces can take at least one of the attackers alive.
It would be nice to see this person put on trial like Ajmal Kasab was.
That plume of black smoke looks like a portion of the mall is on fire.
Looks like a major detonation inside the complex.
Son-of-a-bitch... they are still in contact with the attackers inside.
How the fuck are they doing this?
They must be on a satellite phone.
Mav,
Mumbai coordinator was on sat phone also.
Yes it looks like a sat phone is in use at the location.
It may be possible to intercept the communication.
The identity of the terrorists will hopefully be made public.
If the Samantha Lewthwaite rumour is true, then it is going to raise major questions about the competence of British intelligence and security agencies.
It is difficult for the world to understand how such a known personality with overt links to terrorism could move about so freely.
She should have been on a UK exit control list of some kind or at least on a no-fly list.
How did she end up in Somalia?
This talk of a forged South African Passport is nonsense. Why was this passport not detected in earlier investigations into her actions after the 7/7 bombings?
How is it that a "forged Passport" can pass through modern passport controls which require biometrics?
Mav,
I'm going to speculate here, but I think my speculation is at least a reasonable possibility, and quite likely close to the truth.
The answer to your question and other similar ones (How could the Brits be so consistently incompetent when it comes to these fucked-up jihadi ass-holes? How could the Americans fuck up the Tsarnayev tip-off from the Russians? etc.) is a combination of bureaucratic incompetence (which could happen to anyone, I guess) and persistent ideological stupidity of the pro-Islamic kind (which, I believe, could only happen to these politicaly-correct idiots in the Anglo-Saxon world).
For decades during the Cold War and after (right up to 9/11), the Brits, the Yanks and their cousins in countries like Canada, Australia etc. were pre-disposed to consider Islamists (even the extremely violent kind) as, basically, fine fellows who could always be counted on to "do the right thing in a crunch" -- the "right thing" being, of course to kill Commies, kill Russians, kill Shias/Ahmediyas/Indians/whomever if they really felt the urge to, but stay the hell away from threatening the "good guys" i.e. white Anglo-Saxon interests.
This arrangement worked out fine while there was still a Soviet Union to hate, but the plan started to fail in small ways after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan and collapse and disintegration of the Union. The problem is that these guys (Brits/Americans etc.) became habituated to thinking of Muslims (even the Islamists) as good guys and they can't change their thinking now. They simply can't get over their insane obsession with hating Russia/Iran etc. To make these "bad guys" suffer, any and all means will be used, including sucking up to jihadis. Outfits like the US State Dept, the British Foreign Office, most of academia and media in these countries simply cannot bring themselves to voice/publish any thought that says, or even suggests, that some Muslim religious centres, mosques etc. have to be monitored/watched for the potentially violent subversive elements that they are.
This realization will never penetrate their heads unless another 7/7 or 9/11 occurs. For fuck's sake, large parts of urban Britain are practically an extension of Pakistan, living under Sharia law, and the cowardly Brits are fine with this, it seems. They don't bat an eyelid when one of their soldiers is butchered on the street in broad daylight by a man shouting "Allah ho Akbar". And you expect them to keep tabs on a Lewthwaite or her fellow-travellers?!!
Oh crap!!!
the structure is unstable.
They will likely blow out key supports and try to get the whole mall to collapse on itself.
That is the "big surprise" the twitter account Shahbab are referring to.
Yes Dilbert that is the direction that things has pointing in.
But everyone knows that Britain is committed to a global fight against terrorism.
If the rumor is true, then it looks like the British have badly failed to meet that commitment.
That structural instability is a major problem.
There are over two hundred Kenyan troops in the mall itself.
If the mall collapses, the carnage will be unbelievable.
Seriously this is getting uncomfortably close to the sequence on Sept 11.
The Kenyans should get an engineer unit to evaluate the stability of the structure.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/09/25/shabab-137-hostages-buried-in-kenya-mall-rubble/2866845/
Regarding chemical gas claims.
If a CS canister is discharged in a an enclosed space it can be very nasty.
It may be that the Kenyans attempted to use CS in complex, it is one of those mistakes that can be made in a high pressure situation, but they would have realised in short order that the effect is far from desirable.
Even if it incapacitates the terrorists, it is very bad for the hostages - especially if there are children among them.
Dear friends,
I fear what I am hearing from various sources does not bode well as far as the fate of the hostages goes.
It may be best to term the effort at present as a recovery effort rather than a rescue effort.
at the end the kdf fired rpgs.
these were followed by detonation of explosives tied to support columns.
the collapse of the intermediate floor led to the collapse of the floors above and below it.
Several Kenyan security personnel and hotages appear to have been under the collapse portion.
several children are among the missing. KDF units returning from the site feel there is no likelihood of finding any survivors.
during the 26/11 attacks, a very large cache of RDX was recovered from the first floor of the Taj by the Marcos. It was suspected that the terrorists intended to use it to blow the building and the hundreds of hostages trapped inside up. The recovery of the cache by the Marcos rendered that inoperable.
The terrorists in Nairobi appear to have stashed the explosives on site ahead of time. I suspect that the eyewitness account of a terrorist who dropped his weapons and left the complex pretending to be a victim was probably an engineer who knew how to read a structure and place explosives near the weakest points.
what a terrible day for Kenya and the world.
I was shocked to see the extent of the damage to the building in the latest news photos. Reminds me of the Murrah Building (Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh in 1995).
regarding this post http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1517658#p1517658
Associating a declining trend due to building of the multi-layered fence along the IB/LoC with BJP/NDA regime is called correlation without causation. If someone saw the trend between 2008 to 2012, it would be lower than 1990 incidents too. Even with giving a 10-20% boost for poor collection of data.
Even if that is not the case, one would make a point that the BJP/NDA regime was good in this domain by presenting data rather than expecting people to believe random theories. But then statistics (even a poor man's control hypothesis) is not the forte of desh bhakths, esp. as it comes in the wake of fire-fighting to prevent an UPA-III.
And when one hunts for the fence idea, one finds this article in the first page of a googal charcha: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EL03Df05.html
I finally figured out why so many of the police officers at the site of the attack in Nairobi seemed very Indian looking.
One of the first responders was the Flying Squad and the other was the CID QRT. Both units have an unusually high number of Kenyan-Indians in them.
That is why the photos have so many Indian looking people with guns in them.
Regarding this question on the Nairobi siege on BRF by Karan M.
>> "Which forces took part in the kenyan assault?"
So far we have seen the following names mentioned.
- D Company 20 Para Cdo (Green Berets/Full Camo+PASGT-hip holster+G3)
- 40 Ranger Special Forces (wearing the Camo PASGT variant and the tan colored IBA)
- 30S -Special Force - (named but no independent confirmation or visual sighting - last reports locate it in Somalia close to Port Kisimayo)
- General Services Unit (red beret/camo jacket/green pants)
- General Service Unit (Recce) ( Plainclothes with Black PASGT and Black IBA-vest, and thigh holsters)
- CID/Flying Squad (All those Indian looking people without body armour and small arms).
>> "Do they have elite antiterror units?"
GSU(Recce) has a Sky Marshal unit trained in hostage rescue by the IDF. This is the closest the Kenyans have to the NSG.
None of the other units are specifically trained in HRT type functions.
What happened at Westgate was that there was no clear chain of command. This is an unfortunate situation that happens everywhere when a local unit is overwhelmed by Jihadis.
The CID/Flying Squad made some progress initially in getting people out and pushing the terrorists into a few locations, but as they didn't have the heavy weapons and armour needed.
So at that point there was turf war for overall control of the situation. The GSU(Recce) people and the KDF(SOR,D Company 20 Para Cdo) got into it over who should have overall command.
The KDF won that war because lets face it the GSU Recce didn't have the manpower at hand to subdue the situation. There are only about 175or so GSU-Recce guys in total anyway and only about 50 were on site.
The only problem was the KDF special units were not trained in HRT functions. That is where the British SO13 and Israeli consultants tried to offer advice.
The Kenyans took the advice initially but then quickly realized that the Jihadis had suicide bombers in there. One of those blew themselves up in the supermarket and that was the "mattress fire" everyone was speaking about. It was the start of the floor collapses.
After a point the Kenyans got tired of the international advisors and told them to go fuck themselves. Frankly I don't think I would have done much different.
The KDF then proceeded to increase the pressure on the Jihadis but then by this time the Jihadis had time to regroup and reposition themselves. There was on particularly nasty situation where a sniper had positioned himself in an advantageous position and he killed a number of the KDF guys - I think they were all Para Cdo people.
It was at that point I feel the KDF simply lost patience and got very aggressive. That led to the use of the RPGs and then either a suicide bomber triggered something or the RPG did something it was not supposed to - but the last set of supports holding up the roof went down and everyone under it was basically dead.
The perimeter security was handled by Nairobi police. There are persistent rumours about a service nullah that run under the mall taking sewage to the nearby river and how this may have been used by the Jihadis to escape.
Mildly put this was kind of a fuckup. This is the only thing that can happen when you come up against a Jihadi assault team. They pick the place and they pick the time. You have very little you can do that really upsets their plans.
It is very similar to the situation at the Taj and Nariman house. There was a similar lack of coordination and a gap when ACP Ishaq Bagwan's people were replaced by NSG operators.
Hello
To be clear - the Kenyans just had their first time with this kind of thing. So there is an excuse of sorts for what happened.
26/11 was not India's first time at this kind of horrible thing. There were many occasions in India's history where such terrible stuff happened. There was no excuse for any command failures on that night. India quite simply failed to learn from previous mistakes.
Hopefully Kenya will not fall into that pattern.
A very good interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r1kECr-4X0
This brings out that part of the Kenyan Indian police unit.
I think it is described as a community oriented policing unit. That is the kind of thing one might see as part of SB-CID in India.
From that interview and the time stamps on the subsequent pictures it seems that Abdul Haji, the Kenyan-Indian Police unit, and the men of the flying squad/CID were able to push the terrorists into the back of the Nakumatt.
It appears that this first response group alone was able to rescue some 100 odd people.
The subsequent push came after KDF Para Cdo,Ranger and GSU(Recce) units arrived and it was the 15-20 people from the first response group - were able to direct the Para and Ranger units towards the Nakumatt. The Para Cdo, Rangers and GSU(Recce)then proceeded to rescue a hundred or so more.
Anyone that was in the Nakumatt stayed inside with the terrorists.
KDF ultimately took over the entire effort and that was when the plan to go through the ceiling was put into action. The plan appears to have failed. Either the assault team ran into resistance as they attempted to put a shaped charge through the Nakumatt roof or there was a suicide bomber sitting there waiting for them. Either ways when their attempt at a forced entry failed - things began to unravel.
Man... what a shitty situation. There is no way to win one of these.
That being said - it looks like even a small QRF can make a significant impact if it can get in 30 odd minutes after the first contact.
That perhaps is the lesson to be learned here.
Here is the Kenyan Indian officer identifying himself as a member of the CID.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/10334529/Kenya-terror-attack-new-video-of-Nairobi-mall-evacuation-emerges.html
The really tall man in that video is the head of the Kenyan red cross.
I think his name is Abbas Gullet.
He was the one who encouraged the Kenyan Indian police unit to enter the complex and help rescue the wounded.
This is an amazing story of courage and sheet willpower in the face of adversity.
Someone should make a movie about this.
Local newspapers in Kenya are reporting that the GSU(Recce) commanders and the KDF people really got into it.
I think the GSU people kept pointing out that the KDF had no idea what they were doing and the KDF people kept pointing out that the GSU didn't have manpower to keep the situation contained.
While this was going on - vital time was lost - the first response force had pinned the terrorists in the Nakumatt supermarket but as the GSU and the KDF battled for supremacy - the terrorists got a breather. They regrouped and reoriented their strategy.
This was probably the point at which they gained access to the vents and positioned snipers in there.
Those snipers made the KDF maneuver very difficult.
It is amazing but by some chance, the first responders who were very disorganised and had no idea what they were doing - did all the right things!
I am amazed at the manner in which these people kept a cool head under fire and maneuvered with great discipline for someone who has not been trained in such situations.
I am most impressed by Mr. Abbas Gullet, the head of the Kenyan Red Cross, he steadily refused to be overwhelmed by the magnitude of the tragedy and directed relief efforts from the site itself. In fact it appears he drove the first group of policemen and private persons to enter the mall.
What especially amazes me is the manner in which this disorganised and poorly trained group of people proceeded to draw fire from the terrorists and reduce the terrorists freedom of movement. The use of CS was quite interesting - it produced a great effect in minimizing the terrorist movements in the building. These actions pinned the terrorists down and allowed hundreds of people to be rescued from the Mall.
This brings back memories of what ACP Ishaq Bagwan's team did at Nariman House and what DCP Vishwas Nangre Patil and the MARCOS did at Taj.
This was also the reason why Kasab and Ismail did so much damage. Both PSI Shashank Shinde, AddlCP Karkare and Addl CP Sadanand Date failed to effectively engage Kasab and Ismail. Kasab and Ismail retained their freedom of movement and proceeded on their killing spree. As you all know PSI Shinde and Addl. CP Karkare paid for their errors with their lives. Addl CP Date almost lost his life in the grenade attack in the stairwell of Cama Hospital.
It is really as if there is a golden hour between the point of first contact - when the terrorists wipe out the static security teams and enter the site and when they become entrenched.
This is the crucial period in which one can limit casualties by deploying even the most rudimentary QRF.
All the QRF has to do is challenge the terrorists and draw their fire. This action also slows down the terrorists movements and allows for hostages and casualties to exit the area.
I do not think using CS is a good idea especially if infants and toddlers are in the area. Even small quantities of CS inhaled could be fatal to children in that age group. And the terrorists could easily defeat this with use of gas masks.
It is also best if the QRF goes in with the understanding that Mr. Abdul Haji went in with at Westgate - that the terrorists are going to kill you anyway - and it is best to meet them at the point of a gun than on your knees begging for your life.
If the QRF accepts that this is most likely a one-way trip - then they will be able to engage a superior trained terrorist force for much longer and for a relatively small sacrifice - a very large number of lives can be saved.
Regretably there is no way to deal with the immediate impact of the strike. When the terrorists reach the perimeter - they will kill the static security team and they will kill innocent bystanders. There is no way to prevent that unless you can catch them at their home base.
But once that horrible part is over, there is a little time in which to make a very big difference to the outcome. There is a very big difference between a situation where 100 people are killed by terrorists and a situation where 1000 people are killed. It is important to bear that difference in mind.
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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec13/generals_10-01.html
wow...
wow...
Silk Road was the forum for a 1.2 Billion dollars in Cocaine and Heroin deals.
Guys - at that number - Ross Ulbricht was probably setting the bulk exchange rates of heroin and cocaine.
This is exactly the sort of thing I don't want the Pakistanis to get into. The commissions on each transaction would be ridiculous.
Of interest here...
Perhaps the most popular and important learning material of my generation ...
Feynman lectures now online
http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/
Mani,
Yes, that Bohemian Gravity was good, they also have one about Higgs boson ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUnTfCh82x
shows the various police officers who participated in the initial operations.
The Kenyan-Indian police unit reports to the CID. It is known as the Special Crime Prevention Unit.
The initial operations were coordinated by Inspector Stephen Lelei of OCS Kabete.
A Coal angle has emerged.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/14/uk-somalia-charcoal-un-idUKBRE96D01C20130714
It seems a UN Monitoring group report has indicated that Kenyan security forces deliberately violated the ban on coal export from Port Kisimayo.
"When it became clear that the Security Council would not lift the charcoal export ban, the "the KDF (Kenyan forces), Madobe and his Ras Kamboni forces took the unilateral decision to begin the export of charcoal from Kismayu port," the report said.
"Although the Kenyan AMISOM contingent and Madobe's Ras Kamboni militia took over Kismayu after al Shabaab left, the U.N. monitors said al Shabaab retained a share of the charcoal business after it lost control of the city.
"The nature of the business enterprise forged by al Shabaab continues with al Shabaab, its commercial partners and networks still central to the trade," the Monitoring Group said.
"Essentially, with the changeover of power in Kismayu, the shareholding of the charcoal trade at the port was divided into three between al Shabaab, Ras Kamboni and Somali Kenyan businessmen cooperating with the KDF (Kenyan army)."
Furthermore the report goes on to state
The group said it estimated charcoal exports from Kismayu alone were worth $15 million to $16 million per month. It noted that traders in Dubai say the actual export amount is probably much higher.
The group said there was also charcoal exporting from Barawe, the al Shabaab-controlled town north of Kismayu, bringing the militants $1.2 million to $2 million per month in taxes.
One Kismayu charcoal trader with strong links to al Shabaab is Hassan Mohamud Yusuf, alias Awlibaax, from the Mareehan clan and chairman of the Juba Business Committee, the group said. He is also linked to Dubai's key charcoal businessman, Saleh Da'ud Abdulla, who himself has connections to al Shabaab, it added.
Another is Ali Ahmed Naaji, from the minority Cawro-maleh clan, who "arranges or provides loans to al Shabaab, and makes investments for them in South Sudan," the report said.
It said Yusuf and Naaji alone account for around 32 percent of charcoal exports from Kismayu, most of which go to Dubai.
The largest purchaser of charcoal in Dubai is Al Qaed International General Trading, owned by Baba Mansoor Ghayedi, alias Haji Baba, an Iranian living in Dubai who described himself to the Monitoring Group as the "King of Charcoal."
The report said Haji Baba denied importing Somali charcoal in violation of the Security Council ban and that the paperwork shows his charcoal comes from Kenya and Djibouti, both of which have banned charcoal exports.
The Monitoring Group included in one annex what it said were examples of false bills of lading certifying Somali charcoal as coming from Kenya.
The United Arab Emirates has been aware of the illegal Somali charcoal shipments, the monitors said. In September 2012 it notified the Monitoring Group that it had impounded a shipment of 100,000 sacks of Somali charcoal.
The monitors said charcoal traders in Dubai informed them that the impounded shipment eventually reached the market. Some 10,000 bags of charcoal were unloaded in Dubai and the rest in Saudi Arabia. The consignee of that shipment was Haji Baba.
So when the ANISOM took over the Kisimayo port - they choked a lucrative revenue stream for Harkat-ul-Mujaheddin-al-Shabaab.
This caused Al Shabaab to seek out new sources of funding and "seek out Al Qaida". The new business model didn't sit well with all the group's management and that is why Abdi Godane conducted his internal coup.
That probably set in motion the events that played out at Westgate.
As sage Rajnikanth once sung in a blast-from-the-past movie with Vinu Chakravarthy as the jailor-ayya, "I did a crime and I am in jail. What crime did jailor-ayya commit to be there with me?"
Can I ask the same question to spin-unkil ji who seems to have been banned, yet again? :)). Some people take vows never to come back, only to come back sooner than later. Spinner-vaal can help mamis in fixing mixies, but cant fix his need to be Mahavishnu or worse, Musharraf (depending on how you parse the tale of the cat that had 9 lives, I guess).
Hehhe, I wish bad-pun-ji could hee-haw that with a riposte here :)).
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Negi, why you rope me into that farce-fest on the forum? :)).
Brf will not change whether one ululates or not. People who want to be on Brf should change to conform.
If someone finds utility by sticking around on Brf, they will, whether langurs throw their home-grown productions on random people or not. If someone finds no utility, they will leave. This is simple economics at work. Every doofus finds his/her optimal point in this aspect.
No amount of tamasha will change the admins and stakeholders, the whiners' state of unease @ the forum, or the langurs. Even the langurs who post a note to self.
A useless advise if any of the stakeholders want to do something to fix the forum, which in itself I doubt. Noone can register in a non-human name (which is already the case). Noone can use a free email (which is already the case). Everyone's registered email will be on display for every other poster to see, but in a no-spam format :)). I am willing to bet that the civility in the forum will improve if people cant don the hijaab and post reckless nonsense. At least some of the non-langur trolls will start getting civilized. As for the langur trolls, they are like that bad uncle in the family who is boorish and painful, but cant be asked to shut up :)).
^ Pax it is what it is ; I for one have always found it very easy to speak my mind when I know that I am not falsifying or hiding things , there is no question of me roping anyone there you can speak for yourself and everyone knows that :)
Various reasons have been put to justify why GDF is hidden from non-registered visitors. But no one has mentioned that the chief reason is to keep some very irrational streams of thought hidden. Just for an example, see the Astrology+Paranormal thread. Things like effect of planetary positions on human life are bandied matter of factly there.
BRF admins know that if those kind of irrational and unscientific material posted over years by some posters, who otherwise affect a personage of rational behaviour on strat form, comes out in the public, what a laughing stock they would become.
^ Dude you do realize there is a reason why such topics are categorized as paranormal; there is no harm in floating your fantasy theories on a thread dedicated for such topics as you do not impose your ideas on anyone. Kitna rota hai guru.
The problem with the forum is that people take emselves and their opinions way too seriously. From being observationalists with a limited capacity to change/fix things, they start putting themselves in a fantasy world where they think that they can change shit by voicing it over a million times.
All that imaginary fantasy world gives them the feeling that they are the ONLY patriots around. And the rest of the people in the govt are all sinners, assholes, cheats, traitors, and whatever. If someone objectively looks at the trajectory of India, one gets optimistic about the future. Not this batshit nonsense that the langurs throw abt how bad India is at the drop of a hat. From what I have read of the 50s and 60s, and that too is very limited, I see HOPE. The whiners who go around doing the patriotism test on every one and his uncle should examine their heads first. But thats a tuf call.
I have seen this evangelical fervor in people who go around in AID and ASHA and related circles. How the fck do you fix India sitting in massa is a paradox I have never seen anyone give me a straight answer for? You want to fix India, you go back and fix it by being the change you want India to be. Else, stop taking yourself so seriously and passing around bs as the ONLY solution to the problem at hand. Much of brf problem is that disconnect between rationality expected in understanding problems and the fervor present in wanting to solve problems. The gap between theory and practice...
Add to that some langur like behavior from time to time, from the usual suspects, the langurs piss off a good majority of the sensible folk. Most of these morons will make very poor politicians. Politics is the art of making deals with people you can never make deals with if you were not a politician. We are all politicians. We make deals at our workplace time and again. Paycheck and stability for dropping the ideology that we get loaded with, the big picture of what we want in life for the irritants that come with the job, visa issues for ideal career path, etc. The hypocrisy between giving a free check to self and not giving a free check to the politicians in India amuses me no end, but then we are all as fubar as it can get. Unless we introspect, we dont realize how hypocritical we are. Some of the langurs have lost that part of their cranium where the introspection happens.
The mockery of Shaurya's remarks on lack of Muslims in the forum belies the simple point that the forum-ka-langurs have pushed the envelope to such a wide arc that anyone who asks a valid question on relevant things in India today is called a 100 names.
A few months back, jairam ramesh said something on toilets and temples. He was widely abused by many langurs on the forum. Modi comes around and says the same thing, and the langurs are now parsing that statement and justifying Modi. If that aint the cognitive dissonance on the forum, I ve no idea what else is. Either you piss on ramesh and modi or neither. It cant be two rules for two people just cos one is Congress and another is BJP.
And jairam has nuff locus standi to make such a remark, as the Minister for Rural Development and the shambles that is rural India in terms of sanitation issues. In Tamil, the same word is used for two-toilet as well as the backyard of the house. I guess that is true in most Indian languages.
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^ Oye sir there is a difference; who stopped Jairam from building toilets in last 9+ years ? As for Modi he did get burnt by the self professed Hindtuvawadis both on and off the forum alright. You need to read the GDF :)
Modi has actually done some ground work for all the talking he does; Jairam and sycophants like him have been serving the INC for last 50 years who stopped them from making toilets in the country ? Sulabh international is for all purposes a NGO and working despite the GOI and not because of it. So why waste time on analyzing as to if Modi got critisized enough for his remark , I will definitely cut him some slack for his work; the day Jairam manages half of what Modi could do he too shall then be within his rights to demand that respect .
Stan you should know already as to where the GOI's priorities are and how it has operated in all these years , look at the road in any city/village in India a decent 15-20 feet road is still considered a luxury and it is a no brainer as to how good roads impact productivity and connectivity you can imagine the kind of importance government will give to sanitation and waste management . Technically speaking tell me what is more difficult building a 4-6 seating capacity Indian style toilet with water or just a km of 15 feet wide road ? How many kms of roads have these jokers built in last 9 years ? OF all the people why are you then so concerned as to what gas is being release over toilet/temples what is more important is who is doing more work on the ground.
Negi, your response is emblematic of what is patently wrong with and absurd abt brf. You are willing to cut slack to modi or the bjp on some achievements here and there, but you have no idea what the Minister of Rural Development has done or not done. You give me no reason to believe that you have done homework on the inactions of jairam ramesh and hence his statements are stupid.
All I see are innuendoes, rhetorical bs, verbal calisthenics and more. I could nt care less if jairam falls on the feet of sonia every morning and seeks her blessings before going to work. I want to judge him on what he has done and what he has not done. If he has not done something, I would like to know what ails the whole ministry. Jairam is not the first minister for rural development, so if he has not been able to do what he wanted to do, then its incumbent on people to understand the issues rather than froth at the mouth with internet shenanigans.
There is less understanding, there are more conclusions. In short, the journey of understanding issues are skipped and people fit their bs conclusions to whatever random nonsense they see or dont see.
Building roads is not the only metric to see which government does better. The NDA regime comes across with shining colors only on two aspects: golden quad and pokharan. On every other count, it was == or worse than other regimes of the past/future. This is what I see based on what I have read. Corruption (coffingate), geostrategic stupidities (Agra talks, Lahore bus, Parakram), going and seeking favors from massa (Clinton pulling up Nawaz Sharif, my friend Talbott), rhetorical warfare and propaganda (india shining), soldiers/paramilitary personnel/policefolk dying (Pyrdiwah, Kargil, Parakram to a 100 other small scale incidents in the maoist belt incl the big ticket item of MCC-PWG union), religious riots and internal security issues of diff stripes (Gujarat), coloring scientific education with non-sciences like astrology or bs-giri -- on every count NDA/BJP leaves with no firm winners.
Then its a question of selective myopia -- cutting slack for some random fellow/party based on one's biases. If you prefer new blood, a 100 others could prefer stability. This is what the INC vs BJP debate is. To give this a color of "you are an anti-national traitor if you dont agree with me or my viewpoint" is the most illogical tamasha there could be. Spinning it off as die-nasty, sycophants, etc. all the while when acting as Modi's loverbois and spoons is all a bit too grand and obscene.
^ Stan that is your problem you are now shifting focus from the point you made about Modi vs Jairam to the forum , for a moment forget about the forum.
Yes I am biased towards Modi , I am no bhakt of his because I can never be anyone's bhakt for that matter but I do have a reason to believe from visible changes in Gujarat in his 12 year rule that he is our best hope.
Jairam in person might be a nice chap and I am no one to question his personal integrity however living in India and knowing that choice is between UPA III or say hopefully a new government under Modi I am going to back the latter for I know what are we gonna miss going by the 10 year rule of the UPA.
You believe in crunching data so apart from highways and pokharan why don't you talk about stats like number of jobs created in NDA's term vs UPA's two terms and this after NREGA was implemented.
You need to answer a simple question boss , how can we even believe that democracy is functioning in this country as it should if the largest and the oldest party of this country which runs the show does not practice it ? Jairam Ramesh is a part of this bunch.
Why don't you talk about GDP figures in NDA's 5 year tenure given the fact that it inherited a shaky foundation from previous coalition thanks to INC pulling the rug under Gujaral's government and that GDP obviously took a hit owing to US sanctions.
Why are you even mentioning Kargil that's not something which a government's performance is measured by right ? Else INC won't have a face to show for 1962 or 26/11.
You are bringing in non issues like introduction of Astrology and other such BS here, I say they are non issues because how does that adversely affect education; you are a keen observer of education scene what's your take on RTE bill looks like I can show middle finger to my class teacher and still get promoted as there is a no detention clause in there.
I never heard you cry about Haj subsidies being doled out for all these years (Zero sum game , remember sir ?). I never heard you cry about sachar commitee report or when PM MMS famously talked about Muslims having first right on Nation's resources . So why are you worried about religious riots ? Does polarisation happen only because one wears a saffron and says a few lines in chaste hindi and puts a tilak on forehead ?
Boss seriously at times I do not get your pov may be limitation of this medium prevents us form exchanging views effectively , honestly what good is all that data crunching and analysis that you are capable of if at the end of the day you are going to say hey I am not going to pick a side and would rather just say GOI is RIGHT always and everytime, arrey that is anyways given man had that not been the case I would have refused to pay tax and done what crooks do in our country i.e. send money out using hawala and bring it back in at a time when ruppee is down just like now. If I did not believe in the system here I would not have even returned to India but that does not mean that I cannot criticize when I clearly see things going wrong.
Stan lets only measure the NDA and UPA on just economy for you would agree rest all things like security and international relations etc etc are subjective and after knowing you on forum and here for sometime I can say that there is no way you or me are going agree on those :)
. So for now let's only discuss the performance two governments on economic aspects.
THis is an article by Minhaz Merchant. What is your take on this ?
http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/headon/entry/upa-vs-nda-setting-the-economic-record-straight
Negi, you are missing the point. You are not the lone person on the forum calling some random fellow in the government as a sycophant or a loser or a traitor (as the choice runs from time to time), that is essentially the rule as to how the forum behaves.
>> You believe in crunching data so apart from highways and pokharan why don't you talk about stats like number of jobs created in NDA's term vs UPA's two terms and this after NREGA was implemented.
The onus is on the people who claim that NDA regime was good to provide statistical evidence to that claim. It is not my job. Rudradev made a grand claim on the paki dhaaga about how the NDA brought down the infiltration of the paki terrorist pigs across the IB and LoC. I just pointed out the lack of merit in that argument and I have nt seen a riposte to that on the forum by anyone.
>> You need to answer a simple question boss , how can we even believe that democracy is functioning in this country as it should if the largest and the oldest party of this country which runs the show does not practice it ? Jairam Ramesh is a part of this bunch.
You are being utterly stupid. Democracy is not based on any one person's voice or likings or biases. The INC stands for elections. People know a priori that the pre-eminent family of INC will run the show. Despite that people do vote for that party. Ergo, how is that not democracy? Its not like INC is ruling the country despite people voting for the BJP, is it? This is era of coalitions, so if any party gets to 180 or so, they get to form the government. Its the BJP's ineptitude that the INC is in power today despite a hundred corruption cases. If the people of India still choose to vote for INC despite all the corruptions, the bozos @ the BJP Head Office need to examine their heads.
On that count, its the people who have chosen the INC with 180 or so seats. How does it matter if INC is democratic or not? BJP too has the other side of the Nehru-Gandhi family, the scions of Ananth Kumar, Rajnath singh, offsprings and family members of princely India like Diya Kumari, the Scindias, folks like Ranjan Bhattacharya, not to mention the canoodling that the BJP did to form the NDA (in sucking up to die-nasties like the DMK, Shiv Sena, SAD (Badal), TDP, BJD, INLD, AGP and so on, just to name a few). Its not like one side is agmark kosher and another is agmark cowshit, is it? In any case, the real deciders of whether someone is kosher or not is the people who do vote. Or are you like that langur who claims a hundred fancy things abt EVMs?
On another count, if Sonia is a remote control of the puppet named MMS, wtf is the role of the RSS vis-a-vis the BJP? Is the RSS not the "power without responsibility" part of the BJP that the BJP alludes to abt Sonia. Sonia wanted to become the PM and did her initial foray in 2004, it was that "I will tonsure my head if Sonia becomes the PM" dramabaazi loser who played a major role in helping Sonia avoid all that responsibility that could have nailed her now. So what exactly are you talking abt now?
>>> Why don't you talk about GDP figures in NDA's 5 year tenure given the fact that it inherited a shaky foundation from previous coalition thanks to INC pulling the rug under Gujaral's government and that GDP obviously took a hit owing to US sanctions.
Please go ahead and do all this. This is what I want. Stop calling people sycophants and traitors. You can tear and feather people that you have a bias against with facts. Not with verbal diarrhoea.
>> Why are you even mentioning Kargil that's not something which a government's performance is measured by right ? Else INC won't have a face to show for 1962 or 26/11.
Kargil happened despite trusting the pakis. The same illness that plagues(d) many regimes. This is a typical Indian illness, or more specifically, an illness that comes with power. Even the desh bhakths aka NDA were/are no different in being strategically stupid and myopic (or whatever the claims are). You can call that diplomatic compulsions of occupying the high office. Or you can say that the UPA has sold out. As much as I have read, if anyone has sold out anything, its not the fcking babus who have seen this country thro many regimes of many ilks. I do take offense to no-name losers calling people who have shed their blood, tears and sweat for their country as traitors. If you want to do that, you are a langur and you deserve that name.
>> You are bringing in non issues like introduction of Astrology and other such BS here, I say they are non issues because how does that adversely affect education; you are a keen observer of education scene what's your take on RTE bill looks like I can show middle finger to my class teacher and still get promoted as there is a no detention clause in there.
The MHRD has been one fubar place for a long time. Folks like MMJ fcked it up on one side. Folks like Arjun Singh fcked it up on the other. The incumbents in this regime, Kanwal Sibal and Pallam Raju, have their own imprints. From foreign universities entry to All India engg entrance exams to AICTE approvals to how diff universities are ranked to how much cash flows.
There have been a 100 fucked up policies on either side of the spectrum. But behind every policy, there has been debate and there have been babus who have opposed some moves with diff levels of protests. I know of nuff friends who have sat on the AICTE tech committee who have been threatened with violence and who have acceded to bs engg colleges getting approved. I also have classmates who are IAS officers that have been kidnapped by maoists @ Malkangiri and who have been suspended by diff state govts (Cht and Jhk) for not bowing down to political power and doing their job as they see it. Should I pick a bone with em for not fixing what they could have fixed and making political deals where necessary? Or should I go la-la after their ideological commitment? I am not here to judge. Reality is somewhere in between. Everyone makes choices, some of it is despite knowing the threats they get and the costs they face. To pass judgment on these people as if they are all dhimmis, pakis and traitors and as if one understands the full spectrum of issues, when its clear that one does nt, deserves a tight spanking across the butt cheeks with a rattan cane Spore style.
>> I never heard you cry about Haj subsidies being doled out for all these years ...
The Muslims who claim that they are being second class citizens in India are bs-ing themselves and others. And the Hindus who claim that they are being second class citizens in India are bs-ing themselves and others too. With 79.xx% of the population in the 2011 census, if the Hindus are second class citizens in India, thats a fricking joke. With more Muslims in India than in pakistan or bd (or even if that no. is approx. the same and not more), if the Muslims are second class citizens, that too is a fricking joke.
I have a better proposition for you. Every religion is a con game, every single one. If you believe in god, you dont need a damn religion. If you need one, you are in it not for spiritual reasons, but for political reasons.
>> if at the end of the day you are going to say hey I am not going to pick a side and would rather just say GOI is RIGHT always and everytime
Boss, in statistical decision theory, there are hypotheses and then there is data. The data allows you to either reject a hypothesis or not reject it. You can reject a hypothesis with a certain confidence. If you want 100% confidence, it is impossible in finite time or with finite observations.
If you know the theory, you know its limitations. If you do not know it or its existence, it becomes easier to become become super-certain of certain preconceived notions fairly quickly. You want me to pick a side and you offer innuendos instead of data. Even within the caveats of confidence intervals, this is insane.
You can take Rudradev's claim on the greatness of the NDA/BJP regime in keeping the IB/LoC border to test. A simple control for trends post-2004 will invalidate this simple and stupid claim.
Brf's love for Modi/BJP is often made of holes. People who question the claims or could question the claims have been trolled out by langurs.
And Suraj has the balls to come there and talk on the feedback dhaaga abt how the admins are not controlling the direction of the debate in any way. My ass. When an eternal troll has not been banned for calling everyone a dhimmi and a paki and also having the balls to question the moral compass of many people incl me, when an admin can do the same moral compass questioning on people he pre-judges as right or wrong, when Indian neighborhood often means pakistan, when the admins claim that they are doing a thankless job, yet have no enthu in increasing the admin cast from whatever they had for so long to now, I am amused.
I think the most vocal of the admins on the feedback dhaaga are just trying to cover their asses big time. Thats Suraj and Rahul M. If any one of those active admins had a lil bit of intellectual honesty and integrity, they will do the online version of committing hara kiri: resign the fck already. IOW, they are all holding to power without showing any responsibility in standing up and doing the damn job, which is to ban trolls who name-call everyone and sundry.
And of course, should I mention what the canoodling that happens in brf meets does to how such shit biases the non-banning of such trolls? IOW, there are two rules, one, for those who happen to be in certain parts of the world where brf meets happen. And one for others. This is reality, get used to it, dude.
The economic policies of the UPA regime are driven by one thing: avoiding the disasters like what happened @ India Shining, Chandrababu Naidu, etc. IOW, the UPA is free loading people with subsidies, which explains the huge CAD. Similar policies have been followed in diff states too, championed of course by the assholes in TN (the Mu Ka family), spreading all the way to states like UP, MP, AP and so on.
There are two models to winning the vote. Long-term focus on infra without spreading the wealth in the form of subsidies, Short-term focus on re-election without long-term focus on ballooning fiscal prudence. It appears that the UPA/INC and NDA/BJP are arguing for one solution completely. And in a country like India, a binary answer is never a solution. There are certain scenarios where subsidies are necessary and certain scenarios where no subsidies are abs necessary. Of course, when shit hits the fan, both BJP/INC will do the compromises that are needed to go past their ideological prior. This is what happened in 98-04 and will happen again in the future, if need be.
Is the FSB a crime cos it will balloon the CAD to a huge number? The principle on which FSB is based is not, but its implementation is sloppy and idiotic, as much as I have read of it. Did the FSB come from a NAC imprint? So be it. The FSB is one of the prongs in putting down the biggest civil war in independent India: the maoist war. Or so think some of the people I have interacted with. Will it work? I dont know. All I do know is that the maoist menace will die down cos people find it diff to sustain an eternal battle against the State. Even the Politburo knows this and is 200% clear on it. For the PB, its a binary game. For the State too, its a binary game. What separates the two is that the State can play this game for as long as it wants, the PB cant.
Quite a few of the recent policies in the UPA regime have been shaped by the fight against the maoists. From what I have heard, the PMO is closely involved in many of these implementation issues to the last mile. Whether you want to call the PMO a traitorous body or not is left to you. We are losing fewer people in J&K or the NE than in the red belt. This is reality.
Calling it an EJ prop show and simplifying a wide range of issues does nt solve anything let alone help anyone understand the issues involved.
I am increasingly convinced that the entire purpose of the government shutdown was not the health care reform, but the Keystone XL pipeline.
The EPA is the real target of this shutdown campaign. Its sustained objections to Keystone XL pipeline have angered members of the billionaires club - people like the Koch brothers.
That is who is paying Ed Meese III and company to push this agenda via Tea Party people in the senate and congress.
Hmm...
Only Six attackers and no woman leading the stick that entered through the main entrance.
That is interesting. These new reports are being sourced from the Kenyan security forces.
Now all the previous reports were coming from the elected authorities and military.
Who is wrong?
Someone has to be - are the Kenyan security authorities saying that the previous reports that the civilians got from the security services were wrong?
Did not see it before but this is very interesting ...
There is a category 5 storm in BRF forum feedback..
Looks like Hakimji started something...
There are new moderators...
Nishan-e-baaz and junior choukidars are getting humiliated ...
I had a good look at the Modi thread in the GDF forum after seeing the comments on the feedback thread and boy oh boy, its an interesting read.
I like ask Negi, since I see he's responding to Stan, his thoughts on something that struck me.
Isn't it the common wisdom on BRF that one of the reasons for the downfall of the Congress is the emphasis on the Gandhi family instead of the party? You know the type of slogandeering: "Indira is India, India is Indira?"
Well I ask you, how different is that kind of personality worship from the kind of personality worship displayed by NRIs and US citizens in the Modi thread?
I mean come on you and the others there want Modi to win not the BJP right? Otherwise why this venom against Advani and anyone else who even slightly seems to be against Modi?
The more things change the more same they look.
How different will the cult of Modi be from the cult of Gandhi parivar? And those who think he'll be able to do what he's supposed to have done in Gujarat riding on a coalition of disparate partners like Mamata Didi for example, are living in la la land.
This is not to say that Modi becoming PM may not be a good thing for Indian politics because, all things remaining the same, it at least shows that there's choice in the democratic process.
Higgs and Englert get the prize.
Which is not to say I care about things like that, but it is a welcome distraction from trying to get my head around who is lying the Kenyan Military or the civilian politicians.
It looks a lot like the military botched the job and is now putting out a story to discredit the politicians in front of the people.
The idea of the "Domain Expert" is interesting.
Congratulations to the new moderators.
Hello,
PA backed infiltration along the LoC is on the rise.
I do not fully understand all the reasons behind the rise but two factors are certainly contributing to the PA's confidence in the respect.
The PA feels its Azm-e-Nau strategy is sufficient to ward off an IA cold start option regardless of where it is actuated.
Also over the decade the stockpile dumped by IA during the Parakram years has steadily dwindled and the relentless artillery barrages of the 2001-2007 period are no longer as frequent as they used to be. These barages were very good at dissuading infiltration backed by the Pakistan Army.
It is likely that the ISI is trying to re-establish a toehold in Kashmir and as the local population is no longer in a position to support militant behaviour - mehman mujaheddin and SSG officers are being pressed into service to act behind enemy lines.
wrt the Afghan angle on the Kashmir surge..
The Al Qaida/Taliban etc... are opposed to the Pakistani support for US presence in Afghanistan.
If the US leaves Afghanistan - this point of dissonance goes away and the Pakistan Army and the Al-Qaida will be back to being best of friends.
The Kashmir Jihad is on the wane. When the Americans leaves - the Al-Qaida Pakistan Army combination will turn their sights on Kashmir and try to get back in there.
This will most likely happen in early 2014 - we will see a massive increase in the number of IEDs, suicide bombings and fedayeen strikes in J&K.
There is a storm brewing out there - best be ready when it comes.
Stan I get a lazy at times but will respond to some of your points in some time due to work issues.
Bemused I do not speak for BRF and have learnt it the hard way to not to speak for anyone for that matter, however my personal stand on political scene in India is very clear i.e. We have had a school of thought that has had a long reign in India (read primarily shaped by INC) it will be obviously lame on my part to summarize a reign spanning 5 or more decades in a one liner or even a post but what I feel is it is in India's interests for the other school of thought (one could argue the others are not so different which is what imho Stan subscribes to ) to be given an opportunity to run the country for a duration enough for rest of us to see and judge.
To your query first thing lets forget BRF and just go by the general perception of yours about the opinion on the social media about Modi , you will have to admit that he is being looked upon as a potential future PM by a significant % of netizens (I say netizens because we can only gauge that based on our reading of the web ) so it is not just BRF's obsession as such.
Coming to your point about a parallel between cult worship of Gandhi family in INC vs Modi's fanboys well I would say you are being unfair because INC has had an opportunity to deliver at the center for about 50 years which I think is a long enough period for junta to judge a party as such.
Modi on the other hand has never had an opportunity to run a government at the center, he has only been CM of a state for 3 terms and has done good work on ground so he does deserve fair bit of adulation which comes his way, he does not have a family as such and hence question of him doing something for his kids does not even arise.
All in all there is nothing wrong in praising or rooting for someone as long as one does not loose the sight of ground underneath day Modi falters or makes a big mistake he will loose a lot of his followers , remember Manmohan Singh i.e. how he was perceived and projected by the Media in 2004 versus what gets printed about him today both in Indian as well as western newspapers ? How do you think that perception gets built ? MMS and his actions/inactions have a significant role in shaping his perception amongst everyone in this world.
In fact now that you have brought out the point I wanted to express my views on the whole politics thing. I think it is high time that we in India make our political leanings or biases out in public because it creates a healthy atmosphere for debate and discussion . Namo thread on GDF imho is just an example of above.
Now whether this is what folks who run BRF want is another matter and since it is a privately owned site it is completely upto the site owner if he is fine with that.
Opening up on one's political leanings gives a better picture of where one is coming from and a general idea of person's thinking on political scene, I mean seriously for all the vernal gymnastics we do on UPA vs NDA or INC vs BJP or say even the Left won't it help the entire discourse if all the participants made their leanings public ?
Which brings me to put up this question to you all who are concerned about the political debate on BRF i.e. where do you stand on these issues ? Because it helps me as a participant here to gauge better as to where you are coming from and not guess all the time as to what is that you are concerned about .
Negi, think of me as someone who is agnostic abt this Modi vs Nehru-Gandhi family debate. Not bcos I like someone or hate someone, but I am tired of esoteric philosophizing without a focus on the stuff thats been done. Even that category has two broad self-contradictory directions. Whats good for the short-term good can and often is bad for the long-term good and vice versa. Its a diff thing that often people do things without any clue as to whether they want to achieve a short-term goal or a long-term goal, and because of the internal contradictions, a certain optimal pt is realized.
So far the debate has been framed by your prev post as, "give BJP a chance." The "give us" stuff would be better justified by casting a debate in terms of achievements in the 98-04 regime + other state govt regimes.
Let this be a war of ideas, India will win in that case independent of who wins the elections dramabaazi. If its a war of rhetoric, it will soon become a mudslinging match where who can coin the most crappiest epithet wins.. Its not like I dont understand the power of sarcasm, soaked in the sarcasm-laden Madras tamil culture. But sarcasm and grandstanding should nt become the norm, which is what brf has become. Its far more easier to score points without having to question the patriotism/moral compass of everyone or cooking up the most easiest explanation for all things under the sun independent of their logical outlines.
Understanding the Modi phenomenon is a brilliant idea bcos this is how silent revolutions happen in places like India. This is sociology at its most practical best. I am not interested in Modi, the man. I am interested in how someone could replicate the Modi wave even better. Of course, I see diff things and things differently and that should nt stop fanbois in their tracks.
But the broad pt remains. Who wants to wallow with langurs and pigs? I dont. Most sensible people will walkover fistfighting with pigs. This is where the admins step in or should step in. Brf is not a creche where repeat offenders can learn the art of social coexistence or conversational skills. If I should rephrase what Suraj says, "if you have the enthu wallow with these losers. We wont do no shite unless something weird happens." Thats called not knowing how to do yr job.
To bring a broad parallel, India is reasonably law abiding not cos the Hindus are secular, but cos people fear the power of the police or the goondas in uniform. The police fear the power of the Judges, and the Judges are often reasonably ok folks. In brf, the police and the Judges are the same bunch. The police are neither goondas nor just nor knowledgeable. There you go... Hope the current bunch can start dusting off their bhagwad gita books and start acting cos its their damn job.
Not that I think of Modi wave as a silent revolution. Many revolutions that have happened in India have happened by the broad force of a pen rather than rhetoric and loud crass talk.
The RTI Act has exposed many a game by many people. SC Judges keep ruling and setting precedents for how to parse whats in the IPC/Constitution with nary a concern from many of the self appointed desh bhakths and patriots. Indians would broadly fit the "agnostic abt the existence of laws, let alone its legality" to a dot. Even on brf, half the whines and drones will drop dead when people start reading more abt the rules that govern their country and enforcing these rules when they get violated than by loudly screaming murder. Habeus corpus is probably the single most important law in the IPC statutes.
In India, revolutions happen by subterfuge with hardly anyone looking. Which is why ***MY*** interest is on these revolutions. In my forays, I have found the legal route to be the closest path for many of the people who feel that they have been shafted by history or Hinduism or majority community or whatever. The power of the law is understood by those who want to fix India, in whichever way they like. Its abs weird that self appointed desh bhakths would be the last to this trajectory. Amuses me no end.
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Stan you are now in a different universe in terms of thought process at least a different one from mine; if it was God you were speaking about you could be agnostic for no one knows if it exists in the first place , however Modi exists.
The way I think on from there is I need to take a stand all this hyper analysis comes to nothing if I do not decide whether I am for him or against him it's pretty simple for when the voting day comes at least my decision is going to be based on whether my vote in any manner helps his cause or not similarly someone who subscribes to policies of the present regime would do the same when his/her time to vote comes. Point being no one can claim to be an agnostic if one lives in India or is not here for time being but is in any way affected by who is in power then he/she cannot be agnostic not even if he/she abstains from voting.
I realize when you talk about adminstration and running a country from IAS/IPS/Judiciary stand point and I do realize that these pieces of constitutional machinery are going to be the same across regime changes , however you should also appreciate the fact that that is not an excuse to not take a stand , stand in terms of deciding whom you are going to vote and if you know whom you are going to vote for then you better have a solid reason for that and if you have that reason then why stand down from saying that out loud ?
I am merely taking a stand out in open nothing more nothing less reasons for which I have listed in the previous post , I believe good thing about making a stand out in open is you can be honest to yourself and others when you revisit it when time comes.
All that being said I literally suck at having a good conversation on the internet , my train of thought tends to overwhelm my typing and I somehow am not able to make a coherent post due to sheer lack of patience and laziness . Basically I would rather have this kind of a conversation in person than type some $hit which does not make sense :)
Boss, have all the reasons to take a stand. Even bring in non-sequiturs like sycophant, family, die-nasty etc. without realizing the hypocrisy of such metrics. Just dont expect a rational cool-headed "analysis" or debate with those metrics.
As I said, its easier to debate quantitative aspects rather than qualitative aspects. The dhaaga as well as you have brought little in terms of such metrics. 90% of the dhaaga and more is all abt who is more dharmic than the other. Sigh!
Of course, if it comes to debating the mountain climbing gamkha wearing uber-master of all things, it will end with a qualitative mud flinging. But thats an aside.
Someone call call this: "The New history of India" by Ramana.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1523673#p1523673
OTOH, Philip who can coin diff names for MMS would only use Pres.Rajapakse for that fellow :)).
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Stan you are mixing up things.
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Boss, have all the reasons to take a stand. Even bring in non-sequiturs like sycophant, family, die-nasty etc. without realizing the hypocrisy of such metrics. Just dont expect a rational cool-headed "analysis" or debate with those metrics.
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It goes without saying that when I take a stand it has a basis; the problem is it might not be based on stuff analysed to a level of detail of your liking. Even if it were, you might not make same inferences as mine and that is the whole crux of the issue.
For instance lets have following inputs as a background (feel free to refute them in case I am wrong)
1. Modi's term in Gujarat has more or less overlapped with UPA's at the center so for all practical purposes it should be safe to assume that the Judiciary and machinery under the direct control of the center are definitely not biased towards Modi in any way.
Keeping above in mind how many issues of corruption or irregularities have we heard in Gujarat leave alone Modi being charged ?
You spoke about NDA and INC being equal equal when it comes to corruption , how is that ?
George Fernandis was finished after the Coffin gate , Bangaru was lam-posted for taking what (a few lakhs) on TV. BS Yedurappa was ousted for his exploits . Gadkari is no where in the limelight after his debacle.
Somehow the first family always manages to have this halo around them despite there being similar talk and smoke in the air about their involvement and this becomes even more concerning in light of the fact that they single handedly control the INC .
PMO has directly been dragged into both 2G as well as Coal gate scam. Where did this happen before ? Last time PM himself was dragged was when PVN Rao was dragged in Hawala scam and Rajiv's name was brought up in Bofor's case.
What more details does one need to make a judgement about such a group of individuals ? Day Modi gets involved in such $hit I shall have him relegated to same bucket but then as things stand today it's a hypothetical scenario.
We have seen almost 2 terms of the present government at the center and I think we do have better alternative in Modi (I am suing his 2 terms in Guj as a CM as a barometer for that is what I have).
Where is the Hypocrisy in above line of thinking ?
You on the other hand claim to be agnostic and may I ask how so ? If in 2014 you were to cast your vote you would obviously be either voting for a UPA or NDA so how is that you claim to be agnostic ?
Boss, of all the things under the sun, my issue with your prev posts was to call XYZ as a sycophant. Thats the name calling slippery slope to calling people as DIE, traitors, anti-nationals and so on. Sycophancy is a part of Indian politics and every party under the sun has diff such things. Even this kumbaya-ing to Modi on the forum is a similar sycophancy.
As for me, I refuse to be influenced by the american way of life in binarizing things as good and bad. Modi is neither good nor Congress bad. My perspective is issue based, on one count Modi is good. On another count, Congress is good. Noone owns the greatest ideas out there. The voters will pick who they think has the best set of ideas among the lot. Since I will most likely not be physically present in India over the election time, I just watch.
If you still insist and make a hypothetical scenario if I was physically present, my personal choice will be constituency based, which is South Madras. This is a straight fight between ADMK and DMK, and most likely I will pick the best of all evils, someone planted by Amma. Every party in Tamland is casteist, so my issue is one of who has done the greater good for the people. Auto fare regularization in Madras is a single point winner, forget the Amma unavagam, mineral water, reg. water supply in the city, lack of chronic power cuts, reasonable law and order stability in N. Madras and so on. Not like I like Amma, but then thats the case for us in Tamland. She is as corrupt or worse than Mu Ka & co. With Mu Ka, the money flows only to his family. With Amma, the money flows to the cadre and leaks through more. Thats it.
As for corruption, you are missing the story. While the PMO is/could be corrupt, corruption is not the problem in India. Its the lack of alacrity in getting the job done. Its impossible to rid any country of corruption. Just like MMS could be corrupt, AKA has the halo of being agmark white. How is AKA treated on brf, hain?? Is nt he called a hundred names? This is what binarization does, take away focus from what is important to what is peripheral. I could nt care less if India is corrupt 10 times more. I care if all the infra projects get finished on time, whether business projects get done on time, and so on. IOW, I am willing to pay a 10% or a 20% cess for corruption as long as that number is reasonable, gets the job done in a timely and predictable manner, and does not get bogged down in a 108 potholes. To rephrase that, I would be happy to legalize corruption in a form that works and inflate it away from at least the lowest walks of life over the next 20 yrs. This is more likely than to expect a complete white honest society. Indians are not people who come from the lotus feet of god wherein they have a dharmic consciousness planted from T-0.
Dont fall for silly rhetorical stuff. Focus on the real issues. Every party is corrupt, some more than the other. Its not whether the INC has been corrupt or not. It is. The issue is: for the corruption that the INC has done, has it achieved anything. For the middle class, the answer is a big fat no. For the lower class, the answer is a may be. The election outcome will reflect this. Not much else.
^ Arrey dude I know what we are dealing with, I am aware that things are not to be seen in B&W , I am aware that BJP is not an epitome of righteousness . Having said all that we have a choice to make , you cannot deny that.
Now you say that
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If you still insist and make a hypothetical scenario if I was physically present, my personal choice will be constituency based, which is South Madras. This is a straight fight between ADMK and DMK, and most likely I will pick the best of all evils, someone planted by Amma.
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Zimble na so Amma it is ; now Amma can choose to support UPA or NDA so that is why I say we cannot claim to be agnostic in absolute terms.
I think a bit on different lines during LS elections I would vote for that party/candidate keeping central government in mind , local issues in my opinion are better left for assembly elections that is my line of thinking, not that I am right but that is what I believe in with my current understanding of how things work here.
On the case of Modi being lily-white, why is he the President of the Gujarat Cricket Association? I thought Modi-ji was more interested in pol. administration and the like.
What is his role in a cricket organization? Why is he following the footsteps of other political folk in to cricket administration?
Some things are indefensible, so dont even try. I can fry nuff sports admin naach-gaana stuff :P.
Boss, you are missing the pt again. Its a steep slope in having a viewpoint and a bias/choice to calling everyone who has a differing viewpoint as a dynast/sycophant etc.
FYI, just check out the AP dhaaga, ramana does the able job of guiding the rank & file into throwing their bodily emanations on everyone. Its one thing to be emotional, another to be emotional over 4+ yrs :)). Ramana and fellow AP-rakshaks need to pipe down their Ma-Telugu-thalliki-rakshaking drama. Some of this drama will put politicians to shame. But then I forget the fact that Ramana is more of a politician than anything else on the forum.
^ I am glad you brought that up what does that prove ? I mean worse case he is power hungry, he is there for glamour , money ? Money I don't know he is a CM he can make much more from a lot of underhand dealings.
I do not defend that and concede that it is inappropriate for him to hold a position outside of CM post since it is not just a portfolio.
But on a relative scale he is still one eyed amongst the blind :)
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Stan I stopped worrying about Telanga a long time back; seriously I know zilch , nada, nothing about that whole thing. Long time back when you were around I once made an insensitive comment on the issue on lines of why are people crying so much it's not as if a part of AP is being physically severed and taken out , I mean I never had strong sentiments attached to any state for that matter for I never lived in any for more than 8 years and Uttarakhand where I was born did not even exist in 84. I think you need to stop worrying about BRF as a whole no one should, do not have expectations from an internet forum. Good stuff on BRF was always a piece of individual brilliance and it will remain so ; the forum is not an institution nor is run like one so at times I am amazed when you get upset at things being posted there.
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Negi, perhaps you didn't understand the point I was making. While you may fashion this coming election as one between the BJP and the INC led by the Gandhi parivar, the netizens of BRF's GDF forum and pro-Modi Internet warriors at large have fashioned this as a Modi vs INC led by the Gandhi parivar.
Just look at the kind of invectives that have been hurled against every BJP member who seems to be in "opposition" to Modi. The same cult of hero worship as opposed to idealogical support for a party's POV is evident. How different is this from sycophants liker Digvijay Singh who worship the Gandhi parivar? BRF may not realise it but they have the "Diggy Singh" equivalents. :-)
The more things change the more they remain the same.
Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't really mind a BJP win. In fact I think that would be good for the country in as much that it allows an alternative to be tested out and it also gives a much needed shock to the INC. If nothing else, a five year hiatus would show if Rahul has the chomps to really lead the INC.
However, what really worries me is the larger than life portraiture both in BRF as well as the Internet at large. While some of it is political grandstanding, what really puzzles me, at least in the context of BRF, is the kind of fervour displayed by otherwise rational posters, I mean just look at the heated arguments going on about Modi's comment about toilets/temple. The problem is that cognitive dissonance will hit hard when it would be seen that Modi is unable to replicate the Gujarat model at the Centre because he'd be on a much weaker wicket in terms of the numbers game.
The real cancer in India's body politic in my opinion is the rise of regional satraps who's only consideration is keeping their constituents happy. That's something that neither the BJP nor the INC can do anything about unless they - by some magic - can join hands. That's never going to happen.
Do you seriously think the guys in the Congress really don't know that a 8 per cent plus growth rate is the only option for a better future, both for themselves as well as the country? Yet despite that the fact that the INC spent it's energy over the last few years placating allies and doling out "welfare" only for one thing -election numbers.
BJP's allies are going to extract their pound of flesh as well and that's when the real games will begin.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/splintered-tea-party-creates-challenges-for-republicans/article14713611/
"Government spending was Thursday evening’s big topic. A huge wave of mirth swept through the retrofitted auto showroom when it was announced that 97 per cent of the Environmental Protection Agency is non-operational. Low guffaws were heard when Mr. Van Brink told the crowd that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid had said Republicans were bowing down to the Tea Party gods."
The EPA is the real target of the shutdown.
I don't mind if BJP wins.
I am not very keen to see Modiji become PM.
I think it would cause more problems than it would solve.
Actually Sandeep Singh it not like what you have written
>> full war in 2013 -- 100,000,000 casualties.
full war in 2008 --- 50,000,000 casualties
full war in 2001 --- 20,000,000 casualties
full war in 1999 -- less than 10,000,000 casualties. (nukes kick in)
full war in 1971 --- less than 100,000 casualties. no problems with land, environment, economy
full war in 1965 --- less than 50,000 casualties. no problems with land, environment, economy
full war in 1948 --- less than 25,000 casualties., no problems with land, environment, economy
>> The more we delay the eventuality the worst the situation will become for our people, land, environment and economy.
The way I would put it more like this.
1948 War - 10 Megadeaths (including rioting/famine etc... due to war spending) - 3% total population.
1965 War - 50000 deaths - 0.01% of population.
1971 War - 5 Megadeaths (incl. dead Bangladeshis) - 1% of population
1998 War (w 1-nuke nuke) - 10 Megadeaths - 1% of populatoin.
2013 War (w 5-nuke attack) - 20 Megadeaths - 1.6% of total population.
Any war between India and Pakistan would lead to casualties comparable to the partition times.
Regional satraps can be PITA for any central government as far as budget allocations and legislation is concerned.
But still, there is a big room for ideological mischief if Modi were to become the PM.
For starters, the HRD ministry has wide powers to make appointments in educational institutes and curriculum committees. These powers can be used to pursue the ideological aims of RSS (Hindutva). Since there is hardly any commercial gains in HRD ministry, the regional satraps tend not to interfere in this area. The regional satraps tend to keep an eye out for money making ministries concerned with natural resources, aviation, oil and natural gas etc.
In my view, temple politics is just the tip of the iceberg. What RSS and hindutva votaries would really like to achieve is tamper with children's education so that the future generations turn out already well-versed in hindutva without having to attend the shakhas.
If a Modi-led BJP manages to scamper home and win the election, they will no doubt give full rein to all and any allies. But at the same time, silently sow the seeds of their ideological harvest in fields like education and media, so that they can reap it decades later.
I think Modi and RSS are very-very patient people; they'll tolerate the whims of regional satraps while waiting 10-15 years to build the ideological momentum to carry out the real aims.
With control of investigative agencies in Modi's hands, the greed of regional satraps can easily become their weakness and eventual undoing (see where Lalu is today).
For starters, the HRD ministry has wide powers to make appointments in educational institutes and curriculum committees. These powers can be used to pursue the ideological aims of RSS (Hindutva). Since there is hardly any commercial gains in HRD ministry, the regional satraps tend not to interfere in this area. The regional satraps tend to keep an eye out for money making ministries concerned with natural resources, aviation, oil and natural gas etc.
In my view, temple politics is just the tip of the iceberg. What RSS and hindutva votaries would really like to achieve is tamper with children's education so that the future generations turn out already well-versed in hindutva without having to attend the shakhas.
An important point. While Modi certainly has a good track record in terms of economic management the real fear is all the folks that will ride his coattails to power.
In some respects I think BRF is a good barometer for the thinking of these types. There has already been a suggestion in the Secularism Boon or Bane thread on the need to disenfranchise Muslims in India. And this remained without moderator supervision, probably because nobody reported the post. :-)
And one comment from a poster who used to post here on Mav's blog is that this proposal needs to made "saleable"!
The plus point of ABV and Advani combo was the fact that despite rhetoric they were well aware of the fragile nature of the social fabric of India and did their best to not break it. Despite that we still had the Murli Manohar Joshi types playing havoc.
I'm quite sure Modi is smart enough to realise the dangers of breaking the social compact. However, I wonder if his hangers ons, especially the NRI, non-citizen type of chamchas he's so fond of, have any such compunctions. You see if you and your family are well ensconced in a big house in the Bay Area or Maryland you're not really afraid if riots break-out in major cities and schism develops between communities in India.
The funny part is that creating a schism in Indian society is exactly the game plane of all the folks these guys love to hate, EJs, Islamic jihadis, USA, four fathers, take your pick. At the end of the day one needs to ask, what was the objective of the Mumbai bomb blasts? Why did 26/11 happen? Why was Parliament attacked?
The whole idea was to start riots. The Muslim killings in Mumbai following the D company organised bomb blasts drove a lot of Muslims to Simi. I'm not saying that these folks wouldn't have gone there anyway but it proved an important catalyst.
There's now a good chance that you won't need Islamofacist terror to drive the divide in Indian society.
I can relate to Mav's comment that he doesn't mind BJP winning but he has deep misgivings on Modi winning.
BTW I never really understood the acquiescence of BRF's BJPRakshaks to the idea that the RSS has the extra-constitutional power to decide who would be the BJP's PM candidate, President etc.
And yet these same folks scream blue murder on the perceived extra-constitutional power of the Manio family.
I mean come on at least the Manio family contests and wins in elections. When was the last time that RSS pramuks contested in elections?
Cognitive dissonance at its best.
@Bemused: disenfranchisement is sanctified by RSS founder Golwalkar:
"The foreign races in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of the glorification of the Hindu race and culture, i.e. of the Hindu nation and must lose their separate existence to merge into the Hindu race, or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing…….not even citizen’s rights.”
To really understand the objectives of RSS, one should read the texts written by it's founders. A compulsory read is M.S. Golwalkar's "We, or Our Nation Defined" from which the above stanza is taken.
Willy-nilly, any RSS-sanctified PM will want their Govt to do it's best to implement as much of these aims as possible. I have no doubt that someone like Modi, who has been an RSS "pracharak", will exceed the leniency given by Vajpayee to MM Joshi in the HRD ministry.
If an RSS controlled government does not obtain the needed 2/3 majority to actually disenfranchise the "foreign races", they will patiently do the ground work by disseminating and institutionalizing their chauvinistic texts in Indian education system. This will in-effect create a generation of individual read (conscience-wise) to carry out the RSS objectives.
I shudder to think that stupidity of UPA has created a power vacuum so bad that RSS has a real good chance of controlling the next Indian executive.
Boss, thanks for this informative nugget. Didn't really know about this, haven't really delved deeply into RSS philosophy.
Well I guess this explains why there was no reaction in BRF and why the only comment was the need to make this "saleable".
Hello
Since when is this kind of crap published on the forum?
>>Though the title says Pawar, Ahmed Patel (Sonia's right hand man & per some ahem-ahem rumors, her lover) is a key beneficiary.
This is posted by Prem Kumar in the Dawood Ibrahim & Underworld Watch Thread on 24 Aug 2013 01:54
For several months this material has been left moderated.
Bemused, whether the BJP comes to power or the INC comes to power, they can only go so far. Even with Modi or his father. Once you get to the top post, you start acting moderate and are compelled to understand the multi-dimensional tradeoffs with certain policy moves. IOW, fear of the BJP regime is just arrant nonsense. Equally nonsensical are the spectacular claims that INC has sold out.
The rise of regional parties is both a good thing as well as a bad thing. Regional parties look locally and looking locally is important to solve problems. Given that what is India, ideas permeate from state to state. This is certainly true of good ideas like mid-day meal scheme, classical languages support, running business independent of the party in power with nuff greasing, etc. Bad ideas too spread by watching what the neighbors do, like protesting for whatever causes takleef, banning movies with no rhyme or reason, etc.
The absence of pan-Indian hold of national parties is not an albatross you can hang on the shoulders of regional parties. This is the crime of the supposedly national parties. Esp in Tamland, the absence of INC and BJP is their crime and a complete lack of understanding what drives the Tam mindset/mindspace as well as what gets votes. Both parties are in cloud cuckooland. Modi will win 0 votes at the end of the day. BJP's only chance is in the religiously vertically divided 4-5 southern districts. And there too, they are not going to win cos of Modi, and only if they plant a candidate who can speak rhetorical Tamil at its very best, and if they can be equally competent to the incumbents.
More than the INC, the BJP needs to introspect on why Tamland has been a no-go area for much of the BJP. The INC has nt introspected in 50+ yrs, so I doubt much will change. Its hopeless esp given the nonsense that emanates from Sathyamurthi Bhavan. You cant blame the regional people for picking local parties that connect better for the problem that lies with the useless national parties.
The fact that BJP cant disenfranchise Muslims is clear from what they did and did nt do in their 98-04 regime. This is just scaremongering at its very worst. Of course, nutjobs do exist and I dont deny that.
I think the power of the Judiciary in India is seriously underestimated. Certain things require serious changes to the Constitution, and even the BJP will split vertically if teaparty like antics are championed by the microscopic nutjob set.
In general, I would worry abt tantrum-ish acts from women politicians. Psychologically, they end up going full throttle on power and their male counterparts end up looking like wimps in comparison. Mamta, Maya, Amma, Indira, SHW, BKZ, BB, SB, CK -- compare that with autocratic menfolk set: JRJ, papa Bhutto, Mujib, Bal Thackeray, etc. There is no comparison, women win :)).
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Well quoting a wild theory of some chap and then implying that since Modi is also from RSS he must be thinking the same is a very petty thought to say the least.
Oh by the way this chap does not even hold any post in the GOI; on the other hand extending this kind of lahori logic at display can then one quote what Digvijay SIngh says and claim that what he says actually reflects what current Government wants to do or is doing ? Afterall he has utmost respect for Osama and thinks that 26/11 was some Hindu conspiracy.
Negi,
You are displaying the typical BRF trait of selective reading. What has been said is that while Modi himself may not have such an agenda, he has shown less willingness to control these extreme elements than what ABV and Advani did the last time the BJP was in power. Now you have ask yourself if you agree to this or not.
The second point is disenfranchising non-Hindus is an agenda that finds favour among a section of the RSS leadership (I'm being charitable here but choro). Do you agree or don't you agree?
The blind spot that I find among Modi bhakts and general BJP pasand folks is that they don't seem to see the elephant in the room - to wit that RSS enjoys veto power over the BJP and enjoys an extra-constitutional authority over the BJP.
Yet these same folks go into an apoplectic fit over the "extra-constitutional" control exerted by 7 Race Course Road over the GoI. Do you agree or don't you?
Finally a post espousing exactly the same idea of disenfranchising Muslims (and Christians) and for forcing them to leave India was made in the Secularism Bane or Boon thread and nobody objected to that. And I would wager the post is still there, I guess folks forgot to put that thread in GDF.
In this discussion you bring out the usual strawmans of Digvijay Singh? Nobody is defending that idiot but you seem to imply that two wrongs make one right? Isn't that Lahori logic at its very best?
^ Well the only way to confront extremism is to be extreme there are no two ways about it else nations would not need armed forces .
I have been to masjids on a friday and what is causing you so much takleef is basically a every jumma to jumma affair for them but no one complains about the hate speeches being propagated in a place where a mass has gathered .
My definition of right and wrong is driven by a yardstick which I think is governed by the GOI , if the GOI itself trashes the constitution and goes on about it's dirty appeasement politics then who am I to stop people who then take up an extreme stance on such issues ? If likes of Owasi can talk about reclaiming India and making it a Pakistan, roam free and do it at public gathering why should I complain if someone says the opposite on internet forum ?
De-franchising the Muslims is a wild theory likelyhood of that happening is lesser than TSP being nuked by India so take a chill pill.
Oh by the way in words of Maverick all these are distractions why worry ?
So what you are essentially saying Negi is that if a mad dog barks at you long enough to irritate you, you'd not hesitate to go on all fours and bark right back. Afterwards you can always blame the govt for your actions. Nothing wrong with that approach I suppose, save for it being a zero sum game.
^ Well the mad dog needs to be taken care of, you are bringing in incorrect analogies .
You say "Blame the goverment" as if GOI is not at fault. I have clearly furbished facts as to how GOI turns a blind eye to hate speech when it suits former's political sensitivities it is you who has to prove me wrong to claim that I am the one BLAMING the GOI.
Can you refute above ? If not then please save me the rona dhona.
Okay not to be crass.. but imho - the C130J and C-17 Globemaster are now about to completely redeem GoI's investment. In the next week alone these two platforms will save more Indian lives than any other airplane in India's history.
I really wish GoI had gone ahead and bought a bunch of USN RO desalination plants. Frankly even a dozen of those on those mothballed ships could be a major help in this time.
We could just have parked a dozen of those offshore and have the had a couple of companies of engineers run clear water via pipes directly into the affected regions.
http://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/27881622
Dude talks about Hemp vs. Oil in the US as the cause for the shutdown
Hello
still waiting for the exact numbers
but so far it looks like we are looking at less than a thousand dead
I count that as a great victory in civil aid ops
it is a good day
Hello
still waiting for the exact numbers
but so far it looks like we are looking at less than a thousand dead
I count that as a great victory in civil aid ops
it is a good day
Wow.. the numbers are looking really good. So far everything is below a 100. It will climb as news comes from the mofussil areas.
I am amazed.
The devastation is truly huge and there will have to be a major rehabilitation package in Orissa but at least logon ki jaane toh bach gayi.
Good job NDRF and Government of India, and Govt. of Orissa and Govt. of AP.
The TSD ceased to be a viable entity the day Capt. Rubina Kaur Keer's name become public.
How do CoI chargesheets leak to blogs within weeks of them being signed ?
http://manamanchhina.blogspot.in/2013/10/military-intelligence-captain-faces.html
Dear vvv666,
Do you really want to know the answer to that question?
Yes, I really want to know what is causing these leaks.
Earlier, leaks were being blamed on Army factionalism; but now that the "other faction" is at the helm, still those leaks are happening.
That makes me think that Army factionalism is not the cause of these leaks.
These leaks have a non-army source. Basically files being forwarded to MoD get leaked.
The pics in that blog have been taken with a camera - the EXIF headers are present, but wiped out. Due care has been taken by the leaker.
It should not be too hard to pin down who the source is. I have only just read that blog for about fifteen minutes now and I can tell you who the most likely candidates are...
That is why I am asking - do you really want to know?
I for one don't really want to know.
This is a CoI report about an archival operation that has since been disavowed.
Regardless of who disavowed it - the personnel involved it are now permanently outed.
III Corps CISU is dead and so is TSD - lost forever.
Does it really matter if the names of people or CoI reports are public or private?
Actually Jamwal .. yaar I think you are missing the point here.
>> I don't want to sound callous, but I can't understand why death of this soldier is being given so much attention. A lot of Indian soldiers have died in recent months and neither received even half of the attention and "facebook likes".
>> Just because he is a muslim, his death is an example of whatever secularism/patriotism stands for and deaths of the rest is just routine stuff ?
>> I'll be the last person to dishonour his memory, but only if people show the same outrage when non-muslim soldiers die, it'll seem much less hypocritical and genuine.
Yes a fuss is being made because the soldier is a Muslim - a Muslim who turned down a chance to be with his family at Eid and stayed with his paltan facing the enemy!
It shows that there are many muslims who still stand by the idea of India - at a time when many Hindus are turning into Pakistanis on the inside.
Even in this day and age when Gandhiji's name is treated as an insult, corruption is everywhere and more and more Indians are placing religion above the nation - - there are some Indians who have clean heart and are willing to stand by their nation.
Also You may recall that Tehrik Taliban Pakistan make the claim that any Muslim who fights for the Pakistan Army against them is not a muslim and wajib-ul-qital.
This is the exact same argument that the Pakistani Army uses to justify the killing of Muslims serving in the Indian Army.
Pakistan Army-Tehrik-Taleba-Pakistan- Al Qaida all share the same ideology.
That is what stands out from this incident.
What is truly shameful is that what I am telling you now has to be explained on BRF!!
It shows that there are many muslims who still stand by the idea of India - at a time when many Hindus are turning into Pakistanis on the inside.
Sahi ja rahe ho boss; poora din forum ko gali do lekin kabhi khud ke girebaan mein bhi jhaank liya karo.
If this is not libel then what is ? Hindus turning into Pakistanis ? How so ?
Name once instance of Hindus drawing first blood arrey even in Godhara who drew first blood ?
How many Kasabs and Azhar Masoods have we produced ?
Mav if you cannot find a relevant argument at least do not fabricate stuff ; Jamwal merely called spade a spade without wrapping his post in a wrapper of sensitivity or political correctness . Personally I do not read too much into it but we all know that incident became a headlines because of the religion of the deceased.
From my cousin, B.R. Mani, #2 man at ASI:
UPDATES on PIPLI LIVE..........1000 tons of gold is something like 84000 stupas constructed by Asoka or Sone Ki Lanka.....no base for such things, but findings of the geologists of the GSI can not be ignored when they used at the site magnetometer and induced polarisation cum resistivity method in 3 traverses and identified the sub surface conductive anomalous zone reflecting high charge ability anomalies associated with low apparent resistivity and concluded about the evidence of possible metallic deposit and suggested for excavations......This was the scientific basis for investigation.
Archaeologists of the country are required to refrain from encouraging the treasure hunting which has been accelerated during the last week by some of the T.V. Channels unnecessarily making the excavation at a site look like a criminal act and wastage of public money. It is only such electronic media which is bringing bad name for Indian archaeology every where making mockery of the scientific base and historical background of the site in Unnao appear to be based on dream of some Sadhu. It is a dangerous development and some of the old places have started being effected due to illegal diggings by unsocial elements who may destroy ancient sites and buildings. This has been a common feature in recent times in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Media has to take a careful view.
^^^ oops, that should be me ... my daughter had left herself logged in on this computer ...
btw, B.R. had led the Ayodhya dig, another campaign that was maligned by the media
Mav is right - it takes a special heart to listen to your conscience and fight for your nation when your own co-religionists are out to label you as a religion-traitor.
The soldier's martyrdom is being lauded to send a message to the disgruntled Muslim youth who may be in a mental quandary. That message is to listen to his conscience.
As to why such mental quandaries ail only the Muslim youth - they are targets of psy-warfare by pakistan.
A special mention of this martyred soldier serves to scuttle that psy-warfare.
If I put myself into the shoes of a paki schemer, it doesn't matter who draws 1st,2nd, or 3rd blood. As long as there is bloodshed in India, and that bloodshed creates a communal divide, the paki is happy. My request is not to allow the paki's design to succeed, just stop keeping accounts of such religion-based scores.
I prefer to keep a country-based score. A paki hit India, or a chinese hit India, or India hit back on a paki.
It shows that there are many muslims who still stand by the idea of India - at a time when many Hindus are turning into Pakistanis on the inside.
Sahi ja rahe ho boss; poora din forum ko gali do lekin kabhi khud ke girebaan mein bhi jhaank liya karo.
If this is not libel then what is ? Hindus turning into Pakistanis ? How so ?
Name once instance of Hindus drawing first blood arrey even in Godhara who drew first blood ?
How many Kasabs and Azhar Masoods have we produced ?
Negi,
Can you tell me, is it OK for BRF to coin the term "Inner Pakistaniat" and then apply that nom de guerre on any one who does not confirm to the peculiar world view that's displayed on the forum?
Is it OK that leaders (who may be chutiyas but that's another matter) being routinely called traitors because they don't confirm to the same world view?
Is it OK that the PM (who may be a very weak one) is thought to be hell bent on selling out his country just because he does not confirm to the same world view?
Do you think these are not libel worthy? If you do, then I wonder why all this goes on password protected GDF on BRF?
Negi you and entitled to your views but don't throw stones when you are sitting in glass house. :-)
And now waiting for the standard disclaimer:
"I don't personally call people these names"
[It's another matter that I enjoy reading others doing that]
And what is not OK, it seems, is to praise a brave Indian for putting his country before his life and family just because he happens to be Muslim.
>>> Is it OK that the PM (who may be a very weak one) is thought to be hell bent on selling out his country just because he does not confirm to the same world view?
Bemused,
To call it a "world view" is to give it unnecessary legitimacy ... at best it is a "collective bigotry" ...
In the days when "Indic" was in vogue (still is?), no one could define what that meant ... however, there was an echo chamber response whenever something was considered non-Indic ...
Perhaps ruck-a-shucks are indulging in a "neti neti" discourse to find their way to the core of Indic?
Same is true of the collective view on Pak ... I am no fan of MMS, but the brave keyboard warriors don't have an alternative to his policy either ...
all they do is rant against MMS ...
why don't the ruck-a-shucks take some time off from TSP dhaagaa and pen down their "Pak Policy Manifesto"?
would be enlightening reading ... but, except for a few stalwarts, I doubt that they are capable of constructing such a document ...
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^ Bemused I see BRF as just a reflection of society; when calling someone Maut ka Saudagar is kosher in our political arena then why cannot the other party call the opponent with whatever adjective they choose to. I only believe that never draw first blood for the one who does looses the right to dictate the terms of engagement in this case if leader of a certain party is being labelled as Maut ka Saudagar and you have no problem with it what right do you have to question those who call PM with whatever they feel like ? After all other chap is a CM of a state 3 times in a row . Yea yeah two wrongs do not make it a right but personally I would rather confront a wrong with a wrong than do nothing.
--------------
I have personally seen live proceedings of UP LS on TV ; people there use Ma-behan lingo so why should one be so sensitive to use of language ?
My question to Mav was not about language I for one have a thick skin in that department . My question was as to what is the basis for making a statement on the lines of Hindus turning in Pakis ? Can that be substantiated ?
----------------------------------
As for MMS what do you want to hear about him ? After all that one reads in newspapers and now that PMO's office has itself been dragged into more than one scam what has he left to hang on to ? Leave BRF sir someone in the Parliament shouted "PM Chor hai" has this ever happened to any other PM before ? It always takes TWO to TANGO.
Negi,
Sometimes I forget that you’re a BRF veteran and so you are well versed in the art of "debate" BRF ishstyle... :-)
You write: My question was as to what is the basis for making a statement on the lines of Hindus turning in Pakis ? Can that be substantiated ?
This is in response to Mav's point: Hindus are turning into Pakistanis on the inside.
Now the immense irony of it all. You are OK with your fellow BRFites alleging that anyone who does not confirm to BRF's worldview display their Inner Pakistaniyat and yet when Mav says turning Paki on the inside you get a bout of khulji! :-)
You say: Yea yeah two wrongs do not make it a right but personally I would rather confront a wrong with a wrong than do nothing.
And so you're OK with folks calling everyone else, excepting themselves "traitors". You are OK with other folks calling the PM of India a "traitor" and alleging that he's has an agenda to give away Kashmir to the Pakistanis and destroy the Indian economy at the US' behest and that's because some politico once called Modi "Maaut ki Saudagar". Another LOL!
Incidentally you're right in one aspect. The PM of India is a very inefficient man. Despite being 10 years at it, he hasn't been able to give away even an inch of land to Pakistan. Yuck!
Now the kicker in your post: Leave BRF sir someone in the Parliament shouted "PM Chor hai" has this ever happened to any other PM before ? It always takes TWO to TANGO.
The "PM Chor hai" incident happened on Aug 29 when BJP members used the term when the PM was making a statement on the economy.
Interestingly this is what the PM said in retort: ""Have you heard of any country where MPs shout and walk to the well of the House and say 'Prime Minister chor hai'.Despite what some members may say, I do command a certain respect in the council of ministers,"
The bolded portion in the PM's response is important. Whatever one may think of MMS the man, he is the PM and the institution of PM should be respected by all right thinking Indians.
Now coming back to your point of It always takes TWO to TANGO I wonder in what context your are using it? Is it that you are trying to justify the "PM chor hai" comment because someone used the "Maaut ki Saudagar" comment against Modi? If you are then why? I ask because the " Maaut ki Saudagar" was never used on Mav's blog as far as I know?
Or are you trying to say that BRFites are justified in calling the PM and other leaders "traitors" because someone called Modi "Maaut ki Saudagar"? If that's the case then do we take it that the "B" in BRF now stands for "Bhajpa" instead of "Bharat" ?
That would of course explain the khulji on display regarding the publicity given to the martyrdom of a braveheart Indian jawan who happens to be a Muslim.
One more final point which I saved up for the last because it's the most laughable.
I see BRF as just a reflection of society
You think a site which is dominated by NRIs and US citizens is a reflection of society? If that's the case why is there a feeling that everything which is a "reflection of society" should be under password protection? You think social media warriors reflect what folks think in the thousands of small villages which dot the Indian countryside?
Negi, you can do better than this.
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Bemused I think we are talking past each other and may be it's the limitation of the medium but let me again put this very straight.
1. I don't consider PM to be a holy cow or immune to mud slinging, I see the kind of $hit that is spoken in mainstream media and even by the government office bearers so why should an ordinary citizen be held to a higher standard ? Hell when it is his party which draws first blood how can he expect to remain untouched in the cross fire ?
2. On the topic of him being called with adjectives like Napunsak, Chor, traitor well seriously are you really concerned with these ? I at one time used to follow the LS proceedings very closely ABV back in 90s was called a communal. You might say to me communal and traitor are not the same thing but sir it does not work that way you get into a street fight and call someone a rascal and other replies back with a mofo are you going to complain to the cops that he called you with a more offensive adjective ? Who is at fault here ? MMS is only getting back what his party has been labeling and calling others albeit with interest.
BRF is just a forum I do not care if the Mods running it hold American citizenship if I see a wrong I call it out but it is a private forum and not a national daily so I do not create much fuss as to who owns it ; most importantly the discussions on the forum take a direction of their own depending on the participants so I am amused at the obsession you guys have with antecedents of it's Mod/Mods.
Coming to BRF being Bhajapa Rakshak well I would say that is kind of true and I think I have spoken about this earlier on this blog too, catch here is I cannot or would not speak for BRF but at least I like to make my stand open but will the gymnasts here will make their stand open ?
You cannot be a Bharat Rakshak unless you take a stand on political arena in India, we guys can talk decades over AOA, MRV, fast neutrons etc etc but at the end of the day it will be some politician electec by us who will press that button or give a go ahead for the war so why is discussing that aspect and taking a stand on it considered a Taboo.
Let me float a theory of mine oh btw I learnt this trade from you :)
I have seen this trait in lot of Indians , we guys talk about nation building, bharat raksha, avionics, civic sense, infrastructure and what not but moment it comes to politics we develop a cold feet, why is that ? Why is a topic which directly affects you , me and even security of India considered a sort of a distraction or untouchable topic ? Once we make up our minds and do decide to discuss it in open next logical step will be to obviously take a stand and I have taken mine it is as simple as that and I am not ashamed of it, question is where do you stand on this topic ? Oh please do not tell me you do not care about BJP, INC etc etc , please do not tell me that you are apolitical and such BS because if you are then why do you care what MMS is called by opposing party supporters ?
Negi,
You are at it again! LOL!
Let me just highlight some points from your current post along with that you made in the previous post:
Current post:
BRF is just a forum I do not care if the Mods running it hold American citizenship
Earlier post:
I see BRF as just a reflection of society
So depending on which verbal calisthenics you are in engaged in at any point in time, BRF morphs between being just a forum into being a reflection of society?
Negi I used to think only Sanku ji was capable of such humour!
You cannot be a Bharat Rakshak unless you take a stand on political arena in India,
Oh nobody is saying you cannot talk about politics. The question is how you want to talk about it? By calling all and sundry traitors? And besides you yourself have claimed that a lot of name calling goes on in the public domain. Well if that's the case then I ask you again, why is there a necessity of doing that name calling behind a password curtain?
Why is a topic which directly affects you , me and even security of India considered a sort of a distraction or untouchable topic ? Once we make up our minds and do decide to discuss it in open next logical step will be to obviously take a stand and I have taken mine it is as simple as that and I am not ashamed of it, question is where do you stand on this topic ? Oh please do not tell me you do not care about BJP, INC etc etc , please do not tell me that you are apolitical and such BS because if you are then why do you care what MMS is called by opposing party supporters ?
Another Sankuisque verbal diarrhea? Who is asking you to be apolitical? I know I'm certainly not apolitical. I've admired the Prime Minister as an economist for a long time and I have not hidden the fact. I've also said that his second stint as a PM (as opposed to an economist) has been an unmitigated disaster and that I would personally like to see Narendra Modi as the PM as I think he's the most capable administrator we have at the moment. I have personally met him more than once and I liked my interaction with him. So where's all this gymnastics you are talking about?
What I'm worried about is the type of folks who will be coming to prominence by clutching the coattails of Modi. You see I don't buy the prescription that in order to defeat Islamfacism you need to become a mirror image of it. Then there remains no difference in worldview.
As Mav pointed out, this khulji over the publicity given to the cremation of the brave Indian Jawan who sacrificed his life for Bharat Mata is the same mirror image of the Paki fascists who claim that Indian soldiers who are Muslims are not true to their faith.
However, I do note that you are talking about everything else, save for this point which was a launch pad for the current round of discusssions? I wonder why?
Not considering the PM "holy cow" is alright. In fact one can learn from the US of A which is home to many BRFities including yourself on how the lampoon the leadership. But you would notice that even there some redlines are never crossed. For example the traitor word or chor word is never used without conclusive proof.
I wonder why folks who are OK with such redlines think it's OK to cross the same when it comes to Indian leaders and Indian PM?
Can one answer that question without displaying a bout of "Inner Pakistaniat"?
Dear Powerslave,
I find a disturbingly large number of Hindus becoming steadily polarised in their world view.
Perhaps it is a direct consequence of the decades of war in Punjab and Kashmir, or perhaps it is the post 9/11 negativity towards Islam or perhaps it is a response to the continued campaign of Pakistani sponsorred Jihadi terrorism - but Hindus today appear to be more polarised than at any time prior to this in my memory.
I fear the situation is as bad it was in Punjab in mid 70s where Akali parties had steadily fed the population with sectarian thought.
I worry where this will lead us.
Bemused
I have said this before on his blog the political discourse in India is ugly and crass it does not matter if you or me like it or not but it is what it is and PM too has now been pulled into it.
Everything else flows from there, whether it be poll campaigns , addressing a public rally , proceedings in a parliament ,
people are called by ugly adjectives so why is that some layman on an internet forum is expected to behave any different ?
Even more fundamental fact is that you cannot CHOOSE as to who gets to be abused and who does not; back in the day when you were a mod on BRF I clearly remember (If there is one thing I can boast about it is about recollecting what I post or read on the forum) I made a post on the lines that if leaders of other countries can be abused on BRF then on what principle does PM of India becomes an exception to that rule ?
In fact when I was new I was against the then PENIS thread .
Why is that Pakistan's ruling representatives are or were allowed to be abused on BRF under your watch ? Have they been proven guilty in a court of law of what they have been alleged to be involved in ?
On MMS, he became the PM before I even joined BRF and he has been abused on that fora when I was new and you were a Mod then, mind you I am not saying that you necessarily agreed with whatever was said against him but you see
I choose to look the other way even today and for very same reason .
On the topic of NRIs commenting on India and BRF being dominated by Americans or Indians based in America; again at one time I shared your views this was back in the day when you made a post on BRF on the lines that a foreigner who does not have a stake in India or it's interests will not be able to fathom the ground reality here and hence their opinions could be far fetched from reality. Perfect no issues there but Boss you tell me until a few days back Sidarth Vardarajan an American citizen was chief editor of Hindu our RBI governer was an NRI until he assumed the post so honestly you tell me on what moral basis can you pose that question to members of a private forum which btw has no bearing on India's policy making or even forming public opinion ?
Speaking of living outside India weren't you a NRI for short period ? Who gets to decide as to how long is long enough to be not called an India ?
Oh by the way I live in India.
Negi ji,
I applaud your tenacity ... that is how I remember you ... you are a Philly fighter, if I have known one (google it if you miss the reference)
btw, what is this:
>> back in the day when you were a mod on BRF
Bemused-ji is a Bannerjee? Clearly I am out of touch ...
On another note:
>> Sidarth Vardarajan an American citizen was chief editor of Hindu our RBI governer was an NRI
this is just an anecdote, but it may make you feel better ... last year, on a trip to India, I found myself at the house of Mr. Varadrajan, father of Tinku and Siddharth ... I let my feelings be known ... and the good man agreed ...
as an aside, I seriously damaged his scotch collection :)
What me a "Bannerjee"? :-)
Now that's news to me.
Can I call that an unsubstantiated allegation by Negi ji?
Lol!
Guys,
This is becoming a theatre of the absurd. It is varadarAjan, not Vardarajan or even Varadrajan.
Professor ji, aap to unse pooch lijiye naa? But again The Hindu folks, being more Brit than the Brit, would go into paroxysms of bliss talking about mulligatani and mistah koomah.
SV
Negi,
It may surprise you but I read your posts with interest when I'm on the forum, though I must say that nowadays it's not that often.
I think you're a good sort and your heart and head are in the right places.
You bring up a valid point about folks like SV in Hindu and our current RBI Governor.
One, as you mention is a US citizen and the other an NRI for long time. There are others who can be added to this list. Jagdish Bhagawati, a current darling of the mob on BRF is a US citizen and also winner of the Padma Vibhushan. Amartya Sen, while still an Indian citizen, has spent a large portion of his working life abroad.
But I think there's a difference between an SV or Raghuram Rajan and the anonymous US citizens and residents on BRF. The difference is that folks like these two walk the talk, they don't hide behind anonymity or a ridiculous password veil and so are responsible for their words and actions.
SV is a good example. He became the editor of The Hindu due to politics among the squabbling family members on Kasturi & Sons and he lost his editorship to the same politics. As to what he wrote then that's more Hindu editorial policy rather than his personal agenda.
Ditto with Rajan. He's come in with a lot of goodwill and hopes to make a difference. He will be lauded if he does and reviled if he doesn't. Again the case of being responsible for his actions.
With so much of Indian talent residing abroad it is foolishness to think of an agenda which denies India the option to tap on their expertise.
But all this is different from someone hiding under the veil of anonymity and bad mouthing Indian leaders and sometimes officials (for example those in DRDO) who, despite probably being better qualified, chose to remain back in India to make a difference.
What gives the right to these guys to talk about prescriptions - like disenfranchising Muslims for example - that would tear the social fabric of India while they and their near and dear ones reside in the comfort of a nice two storied house in the Bay Area?
What gives them the right to question the "moral compass" of Indian nationals like Nishan e baaz has done so many times. Who is going to question their "moral compass"? I know NSA can but what to do everything is password protected. :-)
Negi, instead of erupting in apoplectic anger, do step back and try to think of these things. I dare-say the opinions expressed on Mav's blog are not much different from your own world view. While I appreciate your loyalty to the forum please don't let that cloud your judgement. Take this FWIW
Hyper emotional, irrational poltical discourse is not limited to India. One only has to was the tea party in the US to get essentially the same effect. I came upon a book published in 2004 called "what's the matter with Kansas" and it delves into thos question before the tea party was started. The book is marketed globally as "what's tha matter with America". The book examines the practice of using emotional ideas such as abortion, lower taxes, religion in public schools, etc., as a way to get people upset and then push conservative ideas such as small government, anti-welfare, etc. Very similar to bait and switch tactics. It gets the people riled up and then they vote in candidate that will enact policies that do not relfect their constituents best interest under the guise of "social conservatism".
It is much the same way as Pakistan for India. The Packees are obviously creators of terroism. A very emotional topic right? Well then Indians must also hate the US. They must also hate the Indian PM and his party because they refuse to invade Packistan. The PM buys military goods and services from the US. Another outrage against India. It's all emotional bait and switch.
I have to say that I am no fan of accomadation with Pakistan either. But it really gets hyped up on the BARF forum. Just my thoughts.
Hey Ralphy,
"But it really gets hyped up on the BARF forum. Just my thoughts."
As it happens, not just your thoughts, my thoughts too. I was thinking exactly the same thing as you re. the Tea Party in the US. BRF and the Hindutvadis in India have devolved into an Indian equivalent of the T/P. Mav is right to speak of the "inner Pakistaniyat" here.
BTW, that book "What's the matter with Kansas" is an excellent exposition of the problem in the US, and as we can see from BRF, it is not confined to America -- other countries (India, for example) are not immune. If you browse and lurk on American/ British/ Canadian political fora, one thing that hits you like a foul stench is the level of sheer hatred and rage that constantly roils The Right, especially in America. Mix in the venomous rhetoric from the gun nuts and you have the impression that actual widespread political violence is never far away.
India is different from America in the sense that it is a much more chaotic society. From time to time you see people shouting and screaming and getting worked up over trivia and you just shrug your shoulders and say "India is like that onleee, what to do". With America... I don't know, I just have the impression that America is working its way to another civil war, and the T/P types will fire the first shot.
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sv,
my apologies for messing up the name ...
Bemused,
sorry about following an unverified allegation ... us chatterjees are sensitive folks :)
Aare Prof Saab, kya kare izzat ki sawal...
Let chatterjees remain chatterjees and bannerjees remain bannerjees save for those who become bOnnerjees due to moral compass-itis reasons.
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>>>>> save for those who become bOnnerjees due to moral compass-itis reasons.
It has been a while since I commented by quoting verse ... this gem is from Shakeel Badayuni:
shikwah-e-izataraab kaun karae
apni duniyaa kharaab kaun karae
daawat-e-mayakashi un aankhon mein
jurrat-e-izataraab kaun karae
Garq-e-jaam-o-sharaab hokae 'Shakeel'
shugl-e-jaam-o-sharaab kaun karae
to phir pesh hai, janab-e-ali:
jab mod-e-rator ka dimaag chakkar mein hai
to compass-e-moral ka hisaab kaun karae
Adab arz hain mian log ...
For those not familiar with Shakeel, here is a reminder of this ghazal made famous by Begam Akhtar:
khush hoon ki meraa husn-e-talab kaam to aayaa
khaali hi sahi meri taraf jaam to aayaa
kaafi hai merae dil ki tasalli ko yahi baat
aap aa na sakae aap kaa paigaam to aayaa
apanon nae nazar pheri to dil nae to diyaa saath
duniyaa mein koi dost mere kaam to aayaa
woh subah kaa ehasaas ho ya meri kashish ho
Doobaa hua khursheed sar-e-baam to aayaa
log un sae ye kahatae hain ki kitanae hain "Shakeel" aap
is husn ke sadaqae mein meraa naam to aayaa
ruck-a-shucks would like to relegate this beautiful verse, which is *very* Indian, to the dustbin cause they would consider it "muslim" ...
I think whether it is the Tea Party in the US or Khalistani thinkers in 1980s Punjab or Jihadized muslims in various parts of the Islamic world or neo-Pakistanized Hindus in India - the problem is the same - it is a small number of people cutting a disproportionate amount of footage and sucking all the attention to their fucked up and warped world view.
This kind of polarization makes it very difficult to have a sensible debate on national matters and quite frankly it makes a mockery of democracy and turns it in a rule-the-asshole-who-shouts-the-loudest!
I feel sensible people have an obligation to stand in the way of that kind of behavior - otherwise one ends up in the same place that my jaatwalas ended up on when one Nathuram Godse went of did his thing.
On an unrelated note - I don't know why the Aga Khan qualifies for Head-of-State treatment - it may be same reason why HH Dalai Lama or HH the Pope is treated like that... but I have to say... in my books Aga Khan Sahab's darzi is a man worth knowing and many (self included) find his sherwanis top class.
Even when Shahnawaz used to get his clothes stitched by his local darzi in Buzurg Dwar... I don't think they were anywhere near what the Aga Khan's tailor manages.
The man is a magician!!!
Have recently been reading up about the efforts made on the MSR front in the department.
I confess in all my years, I had never heard of any effort in the department on this front, but see lecture after lecture being delivered at training school with all manner of plots and simulation results... I am quite impressed.
Somehow I think we should modify the Jai Hind, Jai Jawan and Jai Kisan to include the phrase Jai Jehangir!!!
Interesting link
http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/heritage/sikhhert%20EAfrica/role%20of%20sikhs%20in%20kenya%20police.pdf
Waiting to hear from reliable sources on Patna events.
Hello,
A piece I wrote at the request of Tarun Basu of IANS has been carried by Two Circles.
http://twocircles.net/2013oct27/nightmare_nairobi_revisited_any_lessons_learnt.html
I would like to thank Cmde. Uday Bhaskar for his guidance and comments when writing this piece.
Political atmospherics are making it hard to see through the fog on the Patna blasts.
The present investigation has focused on one Mohd. Tahseen Akhtar a.k.a Wakash, a suspected member of Yasin Bhatkal's cell of the Indian Mujaheddin.
The blasts were clearly low intensity and they had the effect of diverting the attention of the security forces.
This sort of diversionary tactic is usually used to draw attention away from something more serious like a high profile assasination attempt.
It is however unclear if this was a dry run to assasinate Sri. Modi.
It may be recalled that the late Sri. Rajiv Gandhi was the subject of several such dry runs in the weeks preceeding his assasination.
This was being done at the exact same time that several LTTE delegations were visiting Delhi and personally reassuring Sri. Gandhi that there was no threat to his life from the LTTE. These one-on-one meetings helped degrade the effectiveness of the close-in security around Sri. Gandhi.
Sri. Modi's brand of politics has alienated a lot of Indians. Many muslims young men feel a very palpable sense of anger towards Sri. Modi. It should not be surprising if some of these young men commit unlawful acts. Even if these youth don't do anything, professional terrorists groups in Pakistan have Modiji as number one on their hit list - these groups will act if it looks like Modiji might become prime minister.
Whatever the outcome of the election, it is vitally important for the nation's health that the electoral process be protected from interference by terrorists.
It made the business standard.
http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ians/nightmare-in-nairobi-revisited-any-lessons-learnt-comment-special-to-ians-113102700191_1.html
Negiji,
please email me at breadomlette at yahoo.com
thank you
"Sri. Modi's brand of politics has alienated a lot of Indians. ..
.."
Mav,
Your saying this is unfortunate. I was hoping your political leanings would not push you this far.
The irony is someone talking about brand of politics. While the congress continues it virulent divisive politics, all I have seen from Modi is a development based agenda for the country. One could critique his model or even get tired of it. But he has not wavered from it. Not based on what I see.
If Modi were to be assassinated, the idiots who would actually do it would be the useful idiots. A political game executed in a ruthless way, vilifying and egging on a frothing at the mouth crowd. Too many players in this game. Please do not be party to that.
Pradeep
Dear PradeepE,
The similarities to 1984 and 1991 are too serious to ignore.
Every candidate promises all manner of things, and their supporters all believe them. And just as vehemently as the supporters, their opponents also believe in the correctness of their own ideas.
Today people are turning Modiji into a God and worship him, it is only natural that others will demonize him and some will try to kill him.
As I lay down the panchang with the bottles of beer and the imli ki chutney and green chillies on my plate... I see Mars shining in the sky... and I am reminded of the words of Inspector Pandit in Maqbool,
"Ladki mangali hain.... lashon ke dher pe se vida hoke jayegi..."
FWIW - my perceived political leanings are irrelevant.
The only thing that matters now is that Modiji's raised profile will bring the crazies out of the woodwork.
This is going to be a difficult time.
Sanjeev Miglani has an article on Reuters.
It mirrors the sentiments I have expressed.
The threat is extremely real.
All precautions are necessary at this time.
Guys... there is a ton of material out there from various sources but the implicit message is the same everywhere..
"Aaj Musalmaan Yateen Hain" (Muslims are defenceless).
This is a much more severe claim than the usual "Islam khatre mein hain" (Islam is in danger).
The threat remains disturbingly amorphous at this time. No single agency (IM, DI Mafia, Lashkar etc...) is emerging as a front runner in actuating the threat.
During the 1991 election, it was known that there was a threat from LTTE. Today there is no clarity in who is the primary agency for the threat.
The security apparatus is operating blind - the blow could come from anywhere at any time.
With multiple groups vying for the hit - there is no telling which lapse in security (AND ALL SECURITY PROTOCOLS HAVE LAPSES) will be the one that causes the entire ring to fall apart.
This is really making me uncomfortable.
Good grief!!!
How did I miss this?
The text of DIG Vanzara's letter to the Addl. Secy. Home Dept of Gujurat State has been made public two months ago.
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