I am a well-wisher of Pakistan
Despite what may have been rumored before - I am not anti-Pakistan.I just dislike it when the Pakistani Army and Jihadi top brass do certain things. These people know exactly what upsets me and they know it is time to stop acting like that. The world knows the Pakistani militarists are capable of doing terrible things - we don't need constant reminders of their potential for senseless violence.
I have no problems with any other Pakistanis. From their perspective - I am a well wisher of Pakistan and I believe in being a sensible person. At times I feel I comes across as a more patriotic Pakistani than someone like Zaid Hamid (not that it takes much effort to do something like that).
It is this aspect of my thinking that prevents me from suggesting that India's posture at the border and along the LoAC be revised rapidly.
To recap - during Parakram we moved a significant amount of war material to the border. I don't want to go into how much was moved, however, I do want to say that it is not cost effective to move this stuff back to peacetime stations.
By using this material up in exercises in Rajasthan and Gujurat, we are able to achieve the dual goal of reducing the stockpile and maintaining a high level of training among our troops. As the Pakistani military attache has already witnessed, our armed forces are keen to develop into a truly networked modern strike force. This is the best way for us to achieve our national security goals without expending any excess funds.
As things stand today - we are still experiencing cross border terrorism. Some of this is on account of terrorist groups not responding to the Pakistan Army's pleas to cease violence - yet other parts are due to factors beyond anyone's control - i.e. the lure of the conflict economy. Clearly the lack of progress in the prosecution of LeT members involved in the 26/11 attacks is a sign of the struggle deep within Pakistan. Somehow it is still considered "okay" to kill Indian civilians in Pakistan - people like Ajmal Kasab still enjoy a great deal of moral support in Pakistan.
I understand that not all Pakistanis feel this way and under the Pakistani Army's leadership a struggle is underway to change mindsets. As things stand now - the possibility of a decisive confrontation between Islamists and the Pakistan Army still looms large over Pakistan.
As a well wisher of Pakistan, the most horrible scenario that comes to mind is where the Islamists take control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal and precipitate a nuclear war that kills millions of Indians and Pakistanis.
Clearly the Indian armed forces have to be prepared for that eventuality.
Obviously - we do not want to alarm the Pakistanis to the point where they lose focus from their national problems - ex. their war on terror - but we have to do some things to be prepared for the most terrible things happening.
So now you know where I stand.
In the spirit of cooperation, lets move forward.
posted by maverick @ 7:24 AM
279 Comments:
As I predicted earlier.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/09/september-11-homeland-security-spending_n_953288.html
"Critics of the department say its poor track record when it comes to the distribution of its considerable funds is directly related to how the department was formed: in a panic, out of a need for a grand political gesture -- and without a clear mission."
Knives are out for the DHS ... again.
Good grief!
"[T]he reality is that DHS is a colossal and inefficient boondoggle," Joan Johnson-Freese and Tom Nichols, both professors at the Naval War College, wrote this week for AOL Defense:
DHS was a panic reaction, a precipitous act by a Bush administration determined to show it was 'doing something' about terrorism. The horses had already escaped, but the Bush administration went ahead anyway and bought more land, constructed extra barns, equipped them with state-of-the-art doors, and then hired thousands of conscientious civil servants to slam them shut over and over again, for the rest of eternity.
India needs a Palmerston
Why Manmohan’s strategy on Pak terror will never work
well, the geniacs don't give up ... they are back to designing bums and mirv and what not ...
btw, Mav, today on NPR, I heard Ted Koppel claim that since 9/11 850,000 new people in the US have been given "top secret" security clearance ... how can anything be top secret if 850,000 know it?
To be fair, DHS does have some good programs ... it looks like the bad has swamped out the good.
a little knowledge, plus google, plus chutzpah ... perfect recipe for rack-a-shack genius moments ...
one guy talks about gamma-dot in a mirv configuration ... the second dude changes the topic to extra-atmospheric EMP ... neither realizes that they are talking past each other
then genius B googles a 2004 report (which is before rad-hardness of sub-micron tech was established) ...
meanwhile genius C is mixing up numbers of tonnes/kg/isotope content etc ... fortunately, aal iz well and we conclude that there is sufficient maal ...
just another day in lala land ...
Is it true that we have more maal than cheena ? because as per the eggjperts we have/'are in' more pu than cheenis ?
if maal were flat cast iron pans used for making rotis, then yes ...
we have gobloads of Hindu Tavas ...
btw, that report posted by sivab is a perfect example of excesses discussed earlier ... there is a diagram in there with a nT/min scale for a geo-magnetic storm ... I doubt that they bothered to explain to the DHS what a nano-Tesla is ...
So basically even after running more unsafeguarded reactors than China since past few decades we are still behind China. It's the extremes of speculation in this discussion that is most distressing.
monsoon,
I have no idea how much maal India or China have ... I doubt very much that anyone else typing on the internet does either ...
An example of the level of rack-a-shack deceit ... one genius cuts and pastes 3 bullets fron this website:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf62.html
then, without any justification, he inserts "weapons grade" parenthetically in the third bullet.
I don't know what exactly these jokers hope to gain by bad mouthing the AHWR project, but I have a feeling that there is some saffron chaddi thinking involved.
It is very hard to distinguish between the NPA and these people on the forum.
The NPA run around suggesting that every civilian project seem like a failed covert weaponisation attempt.
These idiots on the forum *celebrate* every civilian project as if it were a covert weaponisation *success*!!
The end result is the same - every single civilian project is tarred with the "weapons capable" label and the work of serious scientists and researchers is hampered.
Humanity as a whole stands to gain if India's civilian nuclear projects make progress. India could become the center of a vastly expanded trade in civilian nuclear technology.
But nothing will happen if these people - the forum idiots and the NPA - are allowed to run amok.
>>>> It is very hard to distinguish between the NPA and these people on the forum.
yes, ultimately all the gyaan boils down to pdf downloads of MVR, Rajaraman, DA, GP, et al ...
a little knowledge, plus google, plus chutzpah ... perfect recipe for rack-a-shack genius moments ...
Mav, Mani:
One ingredient, not to be underestimated in the recipe is, egotistical bunch of lathi-chargers who will chase away any sane post (along with those who put those posts)..
Amit, Somnath have been found guilty of having no moral compass..
(One can't even make such things up).. In the words of Ramana:
BTW I note Somnath and you to lesser extent have ,lost the moral compass on national security. I would like to ask both of you to reconsider your membership in this forum. The reason is your posts of your thoughts is leading to outrage and unnecessary agitation of other members including admins. So its tantamount to at least candle flame baiting if not a blow torch.
So Amit, Somnath, Amber G, Stan, GuruPrabhu, Bade, Mort... all are silent. (No surprise as N^3 got tired too)... May be Brf-admin have better grammar than Deaf-n-dumbers but some brf-admins like Archan have fouler mouth.
Mav, you were going to write to their admin, may be you could can advise BRF that becoming deaf'n'dumb is really not that glorious.
But.. this was all predicted by Rastra-Kavi decades ago (Wonder how many here have read MS Guptaji)
यदि अकेली, अक्ल वाली , पोस्ट किससे हो गई,
दल प्रमुख की खल क्रिया से, वो सदा को खो गयी.
उस पर न लाठी चार्ज हो तो, कौन पूछेगा मुझे?
कितने पोस्ट प्रदीप , इस अनुदारता में है बुझे.
Ginc-ji,
Wah, kyaa baat kahi hai ...
It is difficult for me to post in Devnagari, but your post has inspired me ... so, pesh hai:
jab hua Barf dhagaa charge-e-lathi
bhaag gaye saare sab idhar-udhar
ab dekh le apne jazbaat tu tripathi
hai tera moral-e-compass ab kidhar
Pradeep/GinC-ji,
(did I get that right?)
>>>> May be Brf-admin have better grammar than Deaf-n-dumbers but some brf-admins like Archan have fouler mouth
yup, the nishanebaaz case is easier ... no amount of grammar can redeem his utter lack of intelligence.
Just to wrap it up, here is something from the man from Badayoon (very applicable to lathi chargers):
ahl-e-hawas ab ghabaraate hain doob ke behar-e-gham mein "Shakeel"
pahale na thaa bechaaron ko andaazaa geharaai kaa
Adab arz hain, mian log.
I often wonder if the morons on BARF get a talking points memo from the party line (RSS?) about what India should do concerning various projects, etc? It's all the same response that they write: nuke weapons = big respect, test nuke weapons now = rise in stature in the eyes of the world; terrorism in India = US plot to hold India back = organized by US lackeys in Pakistan, etc., etc.
"Moral Compass" on National Security...
Wow... spectacular.
FWIW - if standing by the PM of India in a time of need means having "no moral compass" - then I confess I have absolutely none.
"reconsider your membership of the forum".
Apparently Ramana seems to think it is easier to ban the people that complain against Sanku - than to tell Sanku to shut up and clean up his act.
Okay Ramana, if you want to ban them - please do so - let everyone see how far you are willing to go to protect Sanku.
And when all this is done, you can please explain to me why protecting Sanku was so necessary.
Before I write the letter to the forum admin - I want to make the basic premise of the letter very clear.
****
Political discussion does not belong on a forum related to national security affairs.
Politicising national security is is a bad idea. It inhibits the resolution of difficult issues. Citizens must be proud of their nation but not to the point of excluding rational debate on issues of importance.
Some forumites have been pushing the agenda of a political party - and raising the forum temperature at a time suitable to this party's agenda.
This faction seeks to use foul language and defamation against serving and retired persons of the Government.
Their behaviour is disruptive and it must be stopped.
A rising population, severe pressure on land and water resources, shifting social values, a weakened national health system and a fragmented national information flow all combine to make this a very challenging time in national history.
It is best to make a way through this trying time is through quiet and reasoned debate of key ideas - sans political baggage.
Presently we don't need the 500000000 years of history, we don't need the conspiracies, the catcalls and we don't need the vilification of national officers serving or retired.
There is a sane way for rational people to debate and the place to do it should be the forum.
A good article.
http://tinyurl.com/genhasnaininterview
reminds me of the JJ Singh interview - "we look forward to better days."
Ralphy I have a feeling and I am doubly sure some admins of Barf are actually nominated by RSS.
Mav do you have to often proclaim whats in your heart, the well being of Pakistan and the demise of BARF.
Please make it happen fast Ralphy and I will join in your jihad.
Ralphysdouble,
During the Vajpayee admin period, a large number of left wing provocations were ejected off the forum for being too disruptive. I was a party to that process.
This ensured that discussions stayed focused on what was feasible within resources. This also meant that when the ABV admin shifted it's posture on Pakistan, the forum was able to adjust to the shift. You may or may not recall I was the one who issued the "do-not-shoot" order on the forum when emissaries returned from Islamabad with discussions on how to walk away from the Parakram escalation.
Unfortunately I left the admin team when MMS entered the PMO otherwise I would have seen to it that the right wing provocations are treated the same way. IIRC one of my last emails to my fellow admin was a request to begin clean up operations and a proposal to bring back several left-wing posters who had been kicked out for minor offenses.
Because the forum admin didn't clean up the place as soon as the UPA took over, the right wing drones have had an unusually long life on the forum. The result is the mess we see today. Sankuism of today is a consequence of not taking out the trash back in 2004.
I don't think the RSS cares about the forum. The RSS has its own fora and its own environments for intellectual discussion. The RSS has no time for a place like the forum - they have real objective and aren't interested in what a bunch of self appointed experts have to say on the issue of national security. Like all national level bodies, the RSS may occasionally dip into the pool of ideas that are kicked up on the forum, but the RSS does not need the forum anymore than it needs the VHP or HSS or any other organisation.
If the VHP or the HSS are satellites of the RSS, then the forum is a star in a distant galaxy cluster.
If any forum admin thinks he is appointed by the RSS, then I feel that is a delusion that the RSS leadership does not share.
If someone thinks they are doing the RSS or the BJP or anyone else a favour by posting rubbish on the forum, then I think they are flat wrong.
The forum is a place to learn. The first lesson the forum teaches is to leave the politics behind when you discuss matters of national importance.
I feel the forum should turn back into a place where it was possible to discuss national security issues sans political baggage. That is the greatest utility of the forum and I feel it is also its destiny.
I wonder what the reaction would be today if someone like SM Krishna took a package of Mithai to Kandahar ... I suspect there will be a core meltdown and radioactive venting on Barf ...
Mani - Brilliant piece of work. Enjoyed it a lot.
Archan's badtamazi, even for him, is something seen to be believed if one sees the language of his announcement of GuruPrabhu ban.
Dilbert's posing made me look at some of the posts at BRF and it definitely hit a new low.
Check out "moral compass" conversational at http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5999&p=1133391#p1133391
(Check out original message by Ramana and then everyone (Rudra etc) jumping in to "judge" it.
No one replied to this. It is worth documenting here.
Message from Somnath:
ramana wrote:
BTW I note Somnath and you to lesser extent have lost the moral
compass on national security. I would like to ask both of you to reconsider your membership in this forum. The reason is your posts of your thoughts is leading to outrage and unnecessary agitation of other members including admins. So its tantamount to at least candle flame baiting if not a blow torch.
"Lost the moral compass"? So the "moral compass" is now defined by a trend of view that revels in simply creating a clamour for certain usual suspects whose integrity is supposedly in question? The moral compass is defined by the most fantastic CTs that would perhaps encompass everyone even slightly to the left of KS Sudarshan as "traiters", ISI-agents and collusionists"? And anyone a little more so as mas murderers who need to be hung from the nearest pole? Such quality of analysis is familiar, but typically found in geographies to the West and North-West of India...Moral compass indeed...
If you are trying to make BRF into an "analysis" forum, look at what it does - the usual suspects have been identified - from Padgaonkar to Digvijay Singh to Binayak Sen to MMS to SG to TOI to Hindu to Sid Vardarajan (or is he, now that we know he declined Fai's invite?) to the others..The "enemies" of India too have been identified - China, US, UK, Europe, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Islamics, Christians, Chinese - maybe only about 80% of the world's geography and population....Now, bash them up..And bash them up some more...And some more...And then? Yet some more?
Thankfully, in the real "security" apparatus, this does not pass for analysis (and yes, I do have personal, ringside life experience of it, belonging to a family of public servants, some of the closest of whom have donned the uniform, and actually contributed to the making of policy)...How does the real security apparatus really think/work? Small pointer - The "Kashmir Committee" led by Ram Jethmalani in 2002, blessed by the NDA govt, to try to get some of the separatists to participate in the state elections...Who was its most important member (after Ram J)? Dileep Padgaonkar....(other members included "red, quai-islamist" Shanti Bhushan and MJ "Islamist" Akbar!)...Given that DP is a "convicted mass murderer" (not only "guilty by association" with Fai now), was the "nationalist" NDA playing footsie with such a fellow? Or indeed with another "disreputable character" as Shanti Bhushan?
More importantly, thankfully this isnt the "group think" that is prevelant in "proletarian" India either - as electoral outcomes clearly show...
Where does that leave this specific "special" "moral compass"? Out of the policy-making India, out of voting India....
As for me, quite happy to be dissociate myself from that "moral compass"...........
No one had decency to address this.
Ralphy I have a feeling and I am doubly sure some admins of Barf are actually nominated by RSS.
Mav do you have to often proclaim whats in your heart, the well being of Pakistan and the demise of BARF.
Please make it happen fast Ralphy and I will join in your jihad.
Ralphy and Ralphydouble,
First I don't think RSS nominates (or even issues talking points) admins in BRF. Don't know much about RSS but analogy is more like Rush L was not nominated by GOP.
Demise of BRF, (if there is a demise) is more likely to come from idiots like Sanku and their protectors.
As Mani said, when one can't tell the difference between a Deaf-n-Dumb dhaga and Brf dhaga because of its laughable contents, one does not need a jihad for its demise.
Mani_Tripathi said...
I wonder what the reaction would be today if someone like SM Krishna took a package of Mithai to Kandahar ... I suspect there will be a core meltdown and radioactive venting on Barf ...
Nah,no one (in brf) would notice, if some one actually took Mithai to Kandahar (has been done that before so we have at least one data point).. as people are too busy cursing MMS, SG. (One does not need a reason to curse them, any good deed does not decrease any cursing so any bad deed will not increase any cursing)
OTOH, if some one took an article from Nature and gave its link in nuclear dhaga, I am pretty sure that it will be taken as an insult to Sanku and would cause a meltdown resulting in a massive lathi charge
No speculation here, we have a data point to prove that.
"Archan's badtamazi, even for him, is something seen to be believed if one sees the language of his announcement of GuruPrabhu ban."
I missed that incident. Please provide a link if you can, or reproduce the post here.
Dilbert, Here are some messages (back and forth for context) for record.
Worth archiving .
- From what any one can tell, there was *no* inappropriate message in nuke thread. GP did ask some very valid questions regarding why a forum whose name is "bharat-rakshak" should diss Indian scientists when an idiot started throwing gaalis, (literary) at Bhabha.
From GP: >>
This is getting quite pointless on this dhagaa. I will just say that I know Anil K., Srikumar, etc personally and it was bad enough seeing them disparaged in a forum which is Bharat Rakshak. I would have thought that better sense would prevail in respecting these giants who have given their all to India.
But, now even Bhabha is fair game. What exactly is the point of this forum?
What gives johnnies-come-lately the right to use such language? Sure they can do it on thousands of other forums populated by idiots, but on BRF?
Anyway, there is a move afoot to ban me in another dhagaa, so I will be out soon anyway. Just thought that I will get this one last post in before the soosai event
Cheers.
He later asked:
GP: >>
Anyway, i just want to understand the rules, i.e., does my warning counter get reset to zero after the purgatory term?
Archan, who once proudly described himself as ("me, of course, being a khaki chaddidhaari danda waving pandu [unable to have professional manners]" see (http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5360&start=640)...answers:
From Archan (Brf-admin):
If you get 4 warnings within 6 months you get to enjoy your 72 for 3 months. Another warning while the last four are active (newer than 6 month) means permanent 72. You've already tasted the first fruit of 3 warnings = 1 month with the raisins. These are general guidelines , however. Getting on archanullah's nerves can lead to instant permanent houri-milaap as a certain -uddin can tell you.
Disturbed by such a crude language, some one asked if it was necessary to use such crude language. Archan replied “YES” and when GP advised other folks that it was not worth “degrading their intelligence”
Archan (Brf-admin) replied:
saar, if we onlee had the intelligence to figure out if our intelligence has been degraded! this place is full of dumb beings like us, which is why I am sure a person of your intelligence feels like a misfit.
To ease your pain, I will have to help you spend more time in places/blogs where more intelligent beings prevail and leave this godforsaken forum for the lesser beings like us.
As it so happens, on this forum, commenting on other users' intelligence (in a negative way) is considered an offense liable for a warning. For someone who just returned from a ban, this is a 4th warning. Banned.
And continued:
Just so there is no doubt, the ban is permanent. The dude ain't coming back and professor saheb is smart enough to know that will happen but the intention was to bait the mods here as opposed to saving one's posting priviledges.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Somnath was one of the sanest and most intelligent voices on the forum. Pity he was made to leave by the too-clever-by-half antics of the Sankus and Martens (who, incidentally, flaunts his connections with Chhota Rajan), with admins looking the other way.
I don't think BARF will ever shut down nor do I want it to. For one thing there is too much nationalistic ferver for it to shut down. Ever. and another thing, I wanna know what those morons are thinking. It has been pointed out to me that a number of them are children of high ranking establishment/military figures. It's good to know that such people think a bigger nuclear bomb equals greater respect in the world. Most Americans would be shocked at such thoughts even though we're locked and loaded, baby. As we should be. It's a mean son of a b*tch out there. It should be noted howevuh that most notions of American nationalism/jingo ideas are thought as quite neanderthal by the rest of the world.
So, I am a supporter of BARF's existence. Even though I am against testing nuclear bombs, even American ones.
>>>>> khaki chaddidhaari danda waving pandu
LOL ... but technically, the chaddi is saffron ... it is the "nikkar" that is khaki, no?
Nishanebaaz declaration of Barf priniciple:
>>>>>>> As it so happens, on this forum, commenting on other users' intelligence (in a negative way) is considered an offense liable for a warning.
Sadly, he is missing from TSP dhagaa where YIP is being ridiculed ...
Defending the ABV administration's decision on the release of Azhar, Sheikh and Zargar was very difficult.
The really meaningful opposition came from the security forces and their relatives. They felt that their lives were being treated with less importance than the lives of civilians. Sri. B. Raman's statement "security forces people are paid to die" actually provoked an outpouring of anger from these people and that worried me no end. The reason this went away was that the "No Pakistani Is To Be Taken Alive Anymore" Policy was instituted by the ABV government. The policy remains in place to this day.
The reason the right wing herrows on the forum did not revolt against it is because they knew that they were the reason this decision was being taken.
After IC814 was hijacked, the right wing herrows went apeshit and overplayed their hand. Their behaviour caused the IB and the RAW to perceive a higher communal temperature in the country than their really was.
That is why the IB and the RAW recommended that Sri Vajpayee resolve the issue quietly.
The decision to release Azhar, Sheikh and Zargar was taken bearing in mind the following
- there was no real evidence against Azhar and he had not physically committed any serious crimes against the GoI. Interrogations had revealed Azhar to be a bit of a prima donna, the overall assessment pointed to Azhar being more of a problem to the Harkat leadership than to India.
- Sheikh had committed crimes but they were against foreigners and not GoI personnel. Sheikh was wanted by US and UK governments for various crimes, and his interrogators believed him to be in the same class as Azhar.
- Zargar.... the young boy from the Jama Masjid area of Srinagar... who imposed a ban on Maruti cars in Kashmir so that his friend the owner of Alson Motors could sell Hindustan Motors Ambassador cars instead. He only became truly dangerous in the local Kashmiri environment where he enjoyed a measure of public support. Outside that environment, he was not as effective at causing carnage. His name had been added to the list of demands because the hijackers wanted to put a Kashmiri face on this Pakistani Punjabi guided hijacking farce and he was the least dangerous one that they asked for.
Jaswant Singh saw the opportunity that this represented to open doors to the Taliban regime. The family of the Taliban governor of Kandahar actually stayed in the Amritsar area. It made sense to use this opportunity to talk to them and Secy. Katju was able to arrange the meet and greet. Hence the holding hands and mithai.
I feel this move scared the Pakistanis. If Jaswant was successful in making friends in Kandahar then Pakistan's Central Asia policy would have a dagger to its back in Kandahar. The ISI team that went to Kandahar airport to "observe" the proceedings - probably made sure that the drama was cut short - before the Jaswant-. If there was a success, I feel it was achieved by Sri. Katju and Sri. Jaswant Singh.
The herrows of the forum didn't understand this.
It was as if they didn't really case about the specifics of the hijacking or even what happened in Kandahar. Their real target was the machinery at 7RCR. I feel they wanted to use this hijacking to test how easily they could direct the behaviour of the security machinery and when they felt that all it took was raving and ranting in the backalleys of Delhi or on internet fora to get the IB and the RAW to misinterpret their own data on communal temperatures - the right wing herrows had what they came for- after that it didn't matter.
Mani_Tripathi said...
>>>>> khaki chaddidhaari danda waving pandu
LOL ... but technically, the chaddi is saffron ... it is the "nikkar" that is khaki, no?
Mani, Ishara Master makes it clear (One can't even make such thing up)
Is 'khaki chaddidhar danda wielding pandu" being mistaken for RSS minion? The ref is to street cop in desh who keeps street peace.
I think this round is due to misperception(sic).
BTW when some (Amber etc) complained about admin's language.. Here is a gem from Ramana:
All,
Its good for others to walk away when there is admin action going on.
The forum mods do not indulge in frivolous fights. They do what they have to do because they have to do.
So please don't get in the middle.
Telugu saying "Thellanivi anni paalu kavu!"
"All that appears white is not milk!"
Its a travesty that the off-topic thread has led to this action.
Also please do not call names to other posters for that is first step to general breakdown. If you find such instances bring attention as shiv has done in the Pak thread.
People are reporting others in Whine tread for god sakes!
Have some consideration for the mods.
There you have it!
Mav, worth noting that none of your fellow(ex)-admins had courage to stop that nonsense.
Meanwhile in the Nuke dhaga they are are scared that non-khakhi Cs may land on their shores when currents from the Pacific brings it to the Indian ocean in "20 to 30" years.
LOL!
The only major mistake (and it really was a *serious blunder*) India made in that IC814 hijacking case was to allow the plane to take off from Amritsar. After it landed there, it should have been held there, regardless of the cost in lives, while a rescue mission was planned and initiated.
Once the plane left Amritsar, the mission was a failure, from India's POV. The only choice for the GoI was between having a major failure (which was what happened) and a mega-tragic maha-failure (like, for example, the plane blowing up on the ground in Kandahar, taking the hijackers, the passengers and Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh with it).
Re. standards of behaviour on BRF, I think the simple fact is that things have morphed considerably from what they were when I joined up in 1998. There were vigourous debates then, of course, but the disagreements were policy-related, not personality-related. Things were that way for several years, but changed later. During my early years there, BRF was a delightful place to be.
BRF now is IMO the result of the application of the "Fox News Network philosophy" of broadcasting to an internet forum -- mindless and content-free right-wing bomb-throwing has taken the place of debate/discussion. The content of the posts from US-based rakshaks is an almost verbatim regurgitation of the venom seen on many right-wing American blogs. India-based crackpots like Sanku and Philip are happy to roll around in the mud, but ironically for different reasons.
Sanku/Philip types have the general attitude that "we would all be so much better off if we turned our backs on America and fell, swooning, into Russia's arms. Oh, and BTW, MMS, Sonia and the INC are traitors/sellouts/cowards".
US-based RWRs (right-wing rakshaks) have the general attitude that "we would all be so much better off if we turned our backs on Russia, France, Europe, UK, the Democratic Party, labour unions and intellectuals and fell, swooning, into the Tea Party's arms. Oh, and BTW, Barak Obama, Clinton, the Democratic party, MMS, Sonia and the INC are traitors/sellouts/cowards".
Every now and then the two crackpot factions turn their guns on each other, but their preferred hate-objects offer such a target-rich environment that they are rarely in that predicament.
Interesting report on Solyndra going bankrupt
http://tinyurl.com/3tmhlt2
the success of solar PV is indeed incredible.
The saffron chaddhis are now proposing that Mohammed was an avatar of Vishnu or some such nonsense ... I kid you not ... check the TSP dhaagaa.
Here is something that will get Pakistanis excited ... Salaam's contributions are questioned in this paper:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.1972
Some will condemn this paper ... others in Pakistan may just condemn "the ahmediya" ...
GinC,
Because the forum wasn't cleaned up in 2004 - people like this have become an authority unto themselves.
The manner in which Narendra Modi's post Anna Hazare agitation media blitz is being celebrated by certain sections of the forum is another example of how politicised the atmosphere has become.
Ever since this Anna Hazare thing began - the right wing herrows have spared no effort to attack MMS, the Gandhi family and the Congress Party. Every single discussion on national security issues - be it about acquisitions from the US, ties with Russia, dealing with China or Pakistan or even about the issue of nuclear weapons has been richly lathered with nonsense about MMS Sonia Rahul Gandhi etc... being traitors vermin etc...
This is not an environment to discuss national security issues in.
Dilbert - interesting observations. I need to think about what you have just said.
Whether it is a question about Siachen dimilitarisation, or helping the Pakistanis in Karachi, or meeting the Pakistanis half way in Afghanistan or buying something other than passenger jets from the US or food/fiscal security issues or the deployments along the eastern LAC, the forum's answer is the same - "MMS is a traitor, Sonia is a vatican kgb-spy, and Rahul is a manchurian candidate".
and then we have this masterpiece..
"2nd full page ad by NaMo in TOI today.
its the moment when Tirpitz have come through undetected in the fog of denmark straits and heaved to outside scapa flow while the Admiralty is having its annual summer ball. "
Rudra - you of all people! have you gone nuts?
Not to be left behind...
"For those interested #ModiFast has galvanized the party like no other. Senanis and Senapatis from all 'mats' (factions) of yindoo party are thronging to 'Karnavati'. I think the leadership issue of yindoo party is more or less academic now. The response is mind boggling and completes the OBC axis of Uma (Lodhs), Baba Ramdev (Yadavs) and NaMo (Other OBCs). Game is on."
Wow... on BR of all places this.
Regarding Mahmud of Ghazni having Sanskrit on his coins - I am not sure who is displaying their ignorance and to whom.
It could easily be that the coinage was recovered from a vassal state or during a raid on the eastern kingdoms and then subsequently altered to suit a ghaznavid agenda.
In any case Mahmud was not anti-sanskrit. He was pro-Islam to the extent it suited his political gain. If he could sell his pillaging raids as some kind of religious duty then he would be happy to do so. If striking his coinage in Sanskrit helped bring some of the Sankrit-worshippers to his side - he would be happy to.
It is a bit like this Anna Hazare movement. If someone can use it to further their political agenda they will. If Congress or BJP can get Anna's stamp of approval and go to the next election with a corruption-free sticker on their butts then they will.
But when it comes to down to it - in order to win the election whatever coinage has to be accepted - well - that is fine too.
So I am not sure who is the bigger idiot here... Zaid Hamid who celebrates Mahmud Ghazni as an "India-killing hero" or the forum rakshaks who want to show that Mahmud Ghazni was as much a sanskri speaking Hindu as the next guy in Takshashila.
I find the idea that being "Muslim" makes someone uniquely capable of killing Hindus absurd. Perhaps the people who believe such things don't know about the Mahabharat - where to sets of perfectly Hindu Sanskrit speaking brothers committed mass murder just to seek political supremacy.
BRF is not the only one which loathe Americans.
I have worked in Stockholm Sweden, for a Month, Then recently finished a three month stint in Singapore for a OZ mining company brushing shoulders with English OZ and Scottish hardy Irish folks (very much brothers of Texan Ralphy The real Irish American). All these including the Celtic chaps, the Vikings of Scandinavia hate Americans from their bottom their hearts and blame America for all the mess in the world.
The real Ralphy ( I am only double traveling on his behest) should seek out these kind and preach peace and love instead of narrowly focusing on lowly life of BRF.
Ralphy your mission is cut out there down under.
Peace and power be with you on your new assignment.
If the forum was renamed Eurorakshak or Swedenrakshak with a few misplaced umlauts and accents - then I wouldn't be bothered by it.
There is no reason to keep putting this off.
It is time for the unnecessary politicisation of the forum and the people that cause it to go away.
I am only asking that the policy followed with left wing forum disrupters be extended (albeit belatedly) to their right wing kin.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/19/us-pakistan-karachi-bomb-update-idUSTRE78I4E820110919
The six policemen were guarding the home of Karachi's Senior Superintendent of Police Chaudhry Mohammad Aslam, who survived the attack,
"I will not be cowed. I will teach a lesson to generations of militants," he said at the scene of the blast. "These terrorists have put their hands in the jaw of a lion. I will continue my jihad against them."
Ah... shades of DIG Premadasa Udugampola of the Central Kandy Police department.
It may very well we the Pakistani Police that bring this situation in Karachi to a meaningful conclusion.
The problem is there, RalphyDouble, most Americans simply don't believe it. They think the Irish are simple leperchauns that run around and say "begorah!", the Swedes are sex addicts living in the clutches of socialism, and the Indians are whiz test takers scoing perfect on the SAT and the national spelling bee who just all wanna be Americans and love us. My fellow Americans haven't got a clue. They have no idea that we are being blamed for holding India back from its rightful place as the premier nation of sunshine and sweet reason. They have no idea that the Swedes and Irish think we are bloody monsters bombing peaceful wedding parties of humble but loveable peasants of central Asia and the middle east. My fellow Americans have no idea that all the Euros think we are good for is to bail them out of their piccadellos and prop up the Euro with loans of US currency while they dither around and allow Greece to default. When I tell them these things they say I am a big fucking crank because they personally know a Swede, or an Irishman or an Indian and they're not like that at all. They love us and I'm just trying to mess with their heads bluring all the love that they feel from the rest of the world. So, I read BARF daily and giggle to myself when CRAMS and Sanku step on their dicks in the forum. I guess I am easily amused.
Wow Ralphy original
Keep giggling, that’s the best you can do and are natural at, but don’t cut the BARF to size which gives you so much entertainment. Yes I agree with you and doubly too that the true friends of USA are Pakis. They have no evil in their heart as they wear it on their shoulders (thanks to the Stingers we gave them).
When you get a chance try reading Citizen of the world by Oliver Goldsmith It might enlighten you more than the New Testament worn out copy.
I don't really care what Europe thinks of the US.
I don't even care what the forum thinks of the US.
What pisses me off is the forum is completely polluted by right chatterboxes. I want this population culled because they are too much of a disruption.
I find the usual right-left standoff where the right wing sounds like a bunch of lunatics and the left sounds like reasonable people absolutely useless from the perspective of debate. The right wing lunatics are too well trained at sounding like madmen and the left wing has practiced sounding reasonable for decades now.
I can't be bothered with this usual bullshit. I want the forum to be a place where everyone can discuss without getting a shitload of someone else's politics dumped on them.
It is time to recall Sri. Julio Reberio's immortal phrase "Shoot first and ask questions later".
Ramdev can have his rally - it is his right as a citizen.
It has no relevance towards the current struggle of Anna Hazare and the Indians Against Corruption.
This is basically a platform to advertise Ramdev's yoga inspired businesses.
Rudra .... WTF are pulling?
"Indraprastha - seat of the Galactic Federation. riven with fights among patricians, granary and treasury eaten out by korrupt nobles, a breakdown of The Covenant that kept the peace among various warlords, disruption in supplies of hashish from the northern grasslands, a uneasy citizenry who are kept on a diet of bread and circus to prevent riots. A weak and useless King, a imbecile heir.
to the west on the coast in Dwaraka and in the east the ancient kingdom of Magadha, new Powers are stirring.....armies are on the march....new alliances are being sought and old alliances reaffirmed.....at night the beat of the hammer on the anvil forging swords and shields resounds across the countryside for miles....
game of thrones...."the dothraki shall follow only a Khal who is strong"
in the Dark Tower, across the snowy wastes of the north, The Lizard feasts on the flesh of his enemies and mulls the idea of striking out with his horde down south, for fresh plunder, for when Indraprastha is weak, the Gates are unguarded.
the Eagle King, safe across the Two Oceans and guarded by his vast fleet of warships and magic sticks tosses fitfully in his sleep, and sends emissaries bearing gifts to both camps.
the markets and dark souks buzz with tales of palace intrigues, of dark creatures and ancient evils seen after aeons..alive again outside the walls, tales of people disappearing in the woods with no trace, ... a phoenician trader in a drunken moment of unguard lets slip about the 45,000 horsemen speaking a unknown tongue he has seen camped at attock after disgorging from the Khyber....
wise men sell their holdings and stay liquid in gold nuggets....others march south to seek shelter in the forested realm of blue hills..the nil-giris..."
Dude - seriously wtf is this?
Where are you going with this?
That is sad - they killed Burhannuddin Rabbani.
Mav janab
yeh kya ho raha hai,
app ishara master ka thoheen karte huye, unka hi tarika istmall karthe ho?
Is may kuch pehgam to nahi?
All -
Thanks Dilbert and Mav for their views and historic perspective.
To me, more than left or right some brfians who are quite ignorant (along with arrogant and bigot) are reaching critical mass and some moderators (no pun intended) are part of the problem.
Another round of bakawaas in the nuke thread is in the wings as idiots like Sanku/Theo are dispersing their gyaan.
Ralphysdouble,
India had very good ties to the Rabbani regime. His family lived in the Amritsar area along with several prominent families from the region during the time of the troubles in Afghanistan.
He was a very highly educated man who brought a great sense of harmony to Afghanistan desires for modernization while maintaining links to its traditions and rich Islamic past.
There is a total state of shock and disbelief at his murder.
The murder of this aging Afghan leader is a crime of unspeakable brutality.
Good grief (of all places) here are the details..
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/09/20/ex-afghan-president-rabbani-killed/
Close friends of Rabbani said that the former president returned from a trip to Iran to meet with a man who had been described as a high-ranking Taliban contact. The visitor, a young man, was shown into the house by two of Rabbani's associates at the Afghan High Peace Council, who insisted that he did not need to be fully searched, said a friend who spoke anonymously because he was not a spokesman.
When Rabbani appeared, the man shook the former president's hand and bowed as a sign of respect, said Fazel Karim Aimaq, a former lawmaker from Kunduz province and friend of Rabbani.
"Then his turban exploded," Aimaq said. The blast broke windows in Rabbani's home and shook nearby houses.
more news
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8777646/Turban-bomber-kills-former-Afghan-president.html
Four aides were also killed in the attack, which one council member said was carried out by a trusted Taliban figure who detonated explosives hidden in his turban as he embraced Prof Rabbani. A senior adviser to President Hamid Karzai, Mohammed Masoom Stanekzai, the chief executive of the Afghan Peace and Reintegration Programme, was seriously injured in the attack, although his condition was not believed to be critical.
Fazel Karim Aymaq, a member of the High Peace Council, said two "very trusted" figures had come to Prof Rabbani's home in Kabul's upmarket Wazir Akhbar Khan neighbourhood with "special messages" from the Taliban.
"One of them put his head on the shoulder of Rabbani and detonated the explosives hidden in his turban," he said.
Another council member, Habibullah Fawzi, said the bomber, who was "wearing Afghan style clothes – shalwar kamez and turban – came from Quetta to Kabul with a message of peace from the Taliban.
"He met Rabbani and Stanekzai. Rabbani was expecting him. He was supposed to be a key member of the Taliban. They discussed peace and after the meeting was over Rabbani stood up to wish this man goodbye. Rabbani and the Talib hugged and that was when he blew himself up."
repeat of the murder of Ahamad Shah Massod? is this an protend to bigger events?
I really don't see much cause for concern in the real world ...
in the cyber world, saffron chaddi goons can create tsunamis in chai ka pyaalaa all they want ... they easily come across as brainless vuvuzelas ...
but, is there anyone left who takes such rantings seriously? ... except, of course, other knikkerwallahs ...
I am not in favor of resumption of Ind-Pak cricket ties ...
However, I think a bilateral series between Barf and Def'n'Dumb will sell more e-tickets than the IPL ...
:)
Meanwhile, the transformation of Theocratic_Fukushima and SkankU is complete ...
mat pooch ki kyaa haal hai mera terae peechae
ab dekh ki kyaa rang hai teraa merae aagae
Mera Bharat Mahan!
A very good friend of India in the region and a major peace emissary is dead.
It is very much a sign that something evil has put its mind to work.
Swat Commander Javed Iqbal was making some headway in recovering heavy arms from armed groups in the region.
That might explain why he was targeted.
Oh... I missed all the entertainment on the nuclear thread.
Theo-Fidel writes in response to chetak
"If that is your approach what about Baba Ramdev, who gets quite a bit of his donations from Abroad. Do we then accuse him of having ulterior motives and darkly hint at his being anti-national for taking on the Government. Or for that matter the Arya Samaj in Arunachal that is bitterly opposed to dams."
Yes - I don't see why not.
When accusing Arundhati Roy, Medha Patkar, Sandeep Pandey etc... of being foreign agents because they oppose dam projects and nuclear power - the mere receipt of funds from abroad is treated as sufficient evidence.
In fact - the use of the word Fidel in your handle could be a sign that you are a supporter of Castro.
Maybe you should change your handle to make it more apolitical.
re-kalpakkam.
Amma will sort it out.
I am sure my favorite DIG from TN police is available to do the needful to the protesters if anyone steps out of line.
>>>> Oh... I missed all the entertainment on the nuclear thread.
Here is what I found amusing in the nook dhaagaa ... geniac Cha'nak'yan says:
"It is good to see that now people are talking about transparency and educating public in Nuclear field"
ejukashun in nook phield? Woah!
Thij Djinneous rephujed to be ejukated even aphter very patient attempts from Amber G.
But then, he is not "public", is he? He is not asking for educating geniacs, just mere "public".
You know there are alternative power sources for India? Off shore wind electric generators are a good source. The Google guys are building an off shore power line along the US east coast to take advantage of a windmill project that is slated to be built. If it is feasible, clean energy is the way to go. Now, I know India is going to build its nuke power plants. Nothing is going to stop it. But all things considered, India might want to have alternative power sources.
Ralphy:
There is no way to avoid building heavy-duty power plants (like nuke, hydro, gas-burning, etc.) in order to supply base loads (industries, hospitals, etc.). Renewable energy sources (solar, wind, ocean tides etc.) can supply power to the grid to help meet peak loads, or for miniscule needs like heating/cooling a house, running a family farm, etc. but there's no way on God's green earth that renewable energy sources can replace the traditional heavy sources.
Mani_T:
Re. nuke ejukashun for BRF stalwarts, don't forget that these are the geniuses who were desgining thermo-nuke warheads on the forum using Excel spreadsheets.
Thank you Ralphy, you must have taken medicine to prescibe windpower for India. Thats a positive and green development from you I think India should follow your advice just as the US does.
Dilbert jee
The original bum was designed with Aristo electra slide rule (german made), if you know what it means. So using excel sheet is far accurate way no?
PS I am no exploshiv exploshun expert just ralphy double. Amen !
Ralphy,
I believe that India has a higher percentage of wind power than the US. However, in nuke power India's percentage is much much lower than the US.
btw, I am in Austin for 3 days enjoying the bbq, chili and tex-mex. But they say Austin is not really Texas -- too many furriners here.
Manhattan project had calculating machines ... plus they had Feynman and Bethe (calculating machines in their own right).
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Fully agree with this TOI piece:
"The aim, ultimately, is to have our nuclear power programme take off. Fast-developing India can't rest content with Luddite responses to technology, as frequently manifested in misguided activism be it against transgenic crops or nuclear energy. Our power consumption is set to increase by leaps and bounds. Environment-friendly energy use being critical to our high growth path, we require alternatives to polluting fossil fuels. Renewables - coming with their own set of headaches concerning use of land and other resources - can't do the trick alone. We need a diversified energy basket, which includes an emissions-free source like nuclear power generated to benefit people on a mass scale."
At one time in the 1950's and 60's every construction job site had one of these:
http://retrocalculators.com/Friden_C10.aspx
sitting in the engineer shack. I personally know that one was used in 1967 at the Quad Cities Nuke Power Plant construction site in Illinois.
Dilbert,
>>>> these are the geniuses who were desgining thermo-nuke warheads on the forum using Excel spreadsheets.
To be fair to them, besides excel, their toolkit also contained photoshop ...
Prof T:
I hope Austin weather is treating you well.
You know what they say about Austin? When the going gets weird, the weird go to Austin.
Sorta like a laid back Berkeley I would imagine. I go there from time to time, but I feel out of my element there. Lotsa nerds though. Which is a positive.
Hi Mav, (and all) Just like this particular blog subject, many recent US news papers and Op-ed's are also discussing Pakistan, and where they stand..
Here is LA Times Oped with a warning:
>>> The following may be upsetting to you if you are an American taxpayer
Worth reading:
With an ally like Pakistan, who needs enemies?
http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2011/09/pakistan-ally-aiding-insurgents-afghanistan-attacks-on-american-soldiers.html
Mani - To be fair to them, besides excel, their toolkit also contained photoshop
Critical point is not to forget the fundamental equation(s). Rudra pulls out a random silly "equation" 'N=A*B-C*D' (kid you not, I am not making it up) (with disclaimer -"of course it is not science" and "I am not a physicist but this "equation" may be a starting point of something..") and all the idiots go "satya bachan aapka".
LOL!!
>>>>> random silly "equation" 'N=A*B-C*D'
again, to be fair, this equation is 400% free of non-linear treachery ... :)
“We don’t allow faster-than-light neutrinos in here,” said the bartender.
A neutrino walks into a bar.
There a joke about neutrinos, we now return you to your scheduled posts.....
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But the best thing that happened so far is that people like Ralphy the crusader & champion the US Pak holy MatriMoney going from strength to strength. Long live this friendship may US never leave Afghanistan and prove Paki PM "cant live without US cant live with US.
One fine day it will be the union of land of the Brave with Land of the Pure. Peace will rain all over
Say whut?
Folks - I wonder how many here have read kabir's dohas...
Here is an old one:
मिलि-रेम को प्रलय कहे, किलोटन को फिज़ल.
रक्षक बक-झक देख कर, करे कबीरा गिगल.
Rough translation of this doha:
When mili-Rem of radiation containing water (washing ashore from pacific currents due to Fukushima) is called a deluge.
...and Kilo-Ton (TNT) is called a fizzle.
Discussion of the Rakshaks...
Makes Kabir (the poet) giggle.
Ralphy said "Say whut?"
Serious reply to that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69nILEk-Yk&feature=related
Obviously, the Pakistanis have not heard of my "American Friendship" plan for them. It includes more drones with JDAMs to bomb the savages' wedding parties and send the groom and his pals to the 72 houris at American taxpayer expense. Isn't that a nice gift for the prospective couple?
I liked the dude's snazzy maroon beret in the video. Very sharp. Wonder where I can get one? Although I think I would like a fez just like Pepe LeMoko's.
GinC-ji, LOL.
Pehlae to ek Kabira hua, ab ke hain Shri GinC
Jab bhi jisko mauka milae, dekh liyo yeh link
Ralphy,
The dude is known as Lal Topi Baloongra, or "Red Cap Joker" ...
oops, forgot the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WycqaB3-ymk&feature=related
this idiot has been caught on countless occasions lying into the camera, but he keeps going on ...
Mav. Pakis FM (object of hamay tho loot liya must must walene gore gore galone) has been asked to beat hasty retreat to Islamamad HQ.
WHat do you think something brewing like aditional aids package and few stealth firgates to counter haqqani gang
mav>> what is the idea behind largest democracy PM discusing the scams and behavior of his cabinet in the the big apple city of the greates democracy. Are they going to talk about de bugging FM office or are they going to talk about assuring Uncle that India will cede J&K at the behest of uncle. Is this Tashkent redeux? any thoughts you fore see where none can see.
Ralphy Dee:
Seems like you got a conspiracy theory problem there?
Looking for Zebras at the sound of hoofs?
BARF is calling for you......
This is an excellent move:
http://tinyurl.com/44qfw4z
nuke bad, coal bad, wind kills birds, solar produces chemical waste, gas pipeline not possible, hydel gets Medha-ji upset, diesel is polluting ...
gobar gas it is!
Ralphy original
bray continue, as its is need in your Paki circus ring even Mullen now knows who is the ring master, so get on stools my dear at the crack of Haqqani whip lash!
Ralphy van uncle wake up GI are heading back fron Afghanistan after Haqqanis doing what Vietcong did, become a minute man of the last hour instead of being obsessed by BARF Wake up little Suize (in the back ground)...
Ralphy Dee:
The Haqqanis may survive but they ain't gonna like the experience. Guaranteed.
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US problems with Pakistan are sounding very similar to India's problems.
I imagine GoI will counsel restraint on both sides and encourage Pakistan to be more receptive to counter terrorism strategies that will ultimately benefit the security of its own society.
BTW... finally watched Shagird. Couldn't resist the comparisons to Ab Tak Chappan.
It is a good movie, one that casts a pale light on the deaths of ACP Rajbir Singh and Insp. M. C. Sharma.
The movie confirmed my sense about Delhi...
Quite naturally the difference between Delhi's feudal agrarian mindset and Bombay's corporate industrial mindset is definitely a factor also but....
In Bombay the objective is to get rich and live happily.
In Delhi is the objective is to become politically all powerful and treat everyone else like crap.
That is the difference that explains everything.
In Delhi he who controls the land controls the people. He controls the people controls the money, he who controls the money controls the administration. He who controls the administration has the power.
And he who has the power treats everyone else like dirt.
In Bombay, he who controls land, rents it to industry and uses the money to make movies, buy land in foreign countries and live happily with the beautiful people.
In Delhi - jiski lathi uski bhains... in Bombay - you can have the Bhains - frankly it stinks and if you park it outside Jain Mandir you can charge people Rs 5 to feed before they go into the temple and tell Mahavira that they have performed at least one good deed today.
Delhi is magnificent.
Bombay is sexy.
gobar gas it is!
But isn't gobar (like all bio fuels) is quite radioactive? Much much more than diesel or nuke ?
(It got even more radioactive after all that cs137 eaten by cows in India after Fukushima )
Bombay is etched in my mind with the decorations duringchabees janvaree, The back bay reclamation project under way, the newly acquired Vampires demonstrating fire power in the sea destroying the dummies with dumb rockets...
The tram rides from Colaba to Matunga, the Narial purnima cocnut divers recyling from the Gateway of India sea...
watching Dil Apna aur preet paraya with mama and papa....
Ten Commandments in Eros ….
Dad explaining the Nanvati case to Mom…..
They are all now nostalgia The Albion Double deckers…
I love Bombay, just like everyone else, but I am reminded of this:
Back in the day, Bombay used to stink of money and Bangkok used to stink of sex ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
Now, Bangkok stinks of sex and money, and Bombay just stinks ...
When will you guys decide what name to call your city by the sea? Grin.
^^^^
heh ... we can call it what we like, but others have to learn the new names ... kinda like how african americans freely use the n-word but others can't ...
the old names stink of colonial past ... but in personal usage, they appeal to nostalgia ...
now, say after me: T-h-i-r-u-v-a-n-t-a-p-u-r-a-m ... see, that wasn't so hard, was it? :)
Ralphy,
It will always be Bombay to me.
Mani,
> Bombay just stinks.
Yep.. that is also true.
New Delhi is actually much cleaner.
Somehow I can never get into Delhi the same way that I get into Bombay.
Every time I go to Delhi, I feel uneasy.
It feels like the whole city is dedicated to abuse of political power.
In Bombay the power aspect of it is almost invisible. Sure there are fancy cars with lights on the top etc... but the crowding creates an incredible layer of filth that cakes everything and brings everyone to the same level.
>> now, say after me: T-h-i-r-u-v-a-n-t-a-p-u-r-a-m ... see, that wasn't so hard, was it? :)
We wish, Prof-saarey!! We wish.
It is a much longer T-h-i-r-u-v-a-n-a-n-t-h-a-p-u-r-a-m (Thiruvananthapuram). A magnificent 18 character long name that invariably causes crashes in most port-of-entry forms..... lol
btw, did not know why GP's posts was sounding very familiar (and fun) till rather late. Wish things panned out :(
Mav-saar, bit late, but the name Fidel could be an actual name in TN. eg: I know of folks from his district (right next door to us and kids travel to my college from there) with first names of Stalin, Lenin and even a Tolstoy. So this could be his actual name or a part of it, as his posts seems to indicate he is not exactly a fan of the aging "Comandente en Jefe" type komissars. His dad might have been one, though.
>>>> It is a much longer T-h-i-r-u-v-a-n-a-n-t-h-a-p-u-r-a-m (Thiruvananthapuram). A magnificent 18 character long name that invariably causes crashes in most port-of-entry forms...
LOL, I knew I was missing a few in that ... Is Tiruchapalli correct? I love these names.
Fair is fair ... took me a long time to learn how to spell Albuquerque ...
once upon a time I lived on the corner of Potawatomi and Che Che Pinqua streets ... (native american names in Fermilab village) ...
Finally, the real name of Bangkok is about 50 characters long ... it is literally a sentence describing the city :-)))
sorry, a gross underestimate on my part:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangkok
The full ceremonial name of the city given by King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke, and later edited by King Mongkut, is:
Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Phiman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit
This ceremonial name uses two ancient Indian languages, Pāli and Sanskrit ... It translates to "The city of angels, the great city, the eternal jewel city, the impregnable city of God Indra, the grand capital of the world endowed with nine precious gems, the happy city, abounding in an enormous Royal Palace that resembles the heavenly abode where reigns the reincarnated god, a city given by Indra and built by Vishnukarma".
Most Thais who do recall the full name do so as a result of its use in a popular song, Krung Thep Maha Nakhon (1989) by Asanee-Wasan Chotikul and will often recount it by recalling the song at the same time, much as English speakers might sing the alphabet song while reciting the English alphabet.
----
Talk about height of simplification ... how does all that get compressed to Bangkok?
>>>> The full ceremonial name of the city given by King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke, and later edited by King Mongkut ...
If nothing else in life, I do have academic curiosity ...
I really really would like to know what King Mongkut did ... did he actually *expand* on the name given by King Chulaloke? ... or, was he into economy of expression and trimmed the text of this magnificent name?
its scary what rocks my boat ... :-))
Ralphy,
I trust that you have a robust sense of humor ... check this out:
http://tinyurl.com/3mektgv
effing hilarious, innit?
Prof T:
Yes! Like the Texan accent also. it really clicks. Like ice cream!
Actually, West Texan accents are rather cool. Here is an example:
"Higher yew?"
(How are you?)
"Wer d'ja git that bob ware?"
(Where did you get that barb wire?)
"Muh royaltee check for my awl bidness is late".
(My royalty check from my oil business is late)
>>> "Muh royaltee check for my awl bidness is late".
I watched the show Dallas and then I worked at the Supercollider in Waxahatchie ...
I could swear that it was pronounced "Awl Binness" ...
I learned to say "howdy pardner" regardless of who I was addressing ... it was actually appreciated :)
Mani -
Geniacs will now be convinced that gobar can protect you from radiation.
... That and keeping onions in your pocket. :)
No I am not making it up, see brf nuke-dhaga ..
:)
Ralphy, another one for you ...
Who's there?
Neutrino
Knock Knock
Hi Prof:
"LOL, I knew I was missing a few in that ... Is Tiruchapalli correct?"
Close, but you're missing a syllable.
Ti - ru - chi - ra - pal - li.
You also missed a syllable in
Ti - ru - va - nan - tha - pu - ram.
Just be thankful you didn't make these mistakes on BARF, you would have been denounced as a traitor / sellout / coward / CIA agent.
BTW, I know "Mumbai" is the officially correct name, but I always refer to it (in casual conversation in English) as "Bombay". I claim birthright here, because I was born in the city, LOL. Of course, I am a traitor / sellout / coward / CIA agent.
And a final BTW, the name was always "Mumbai" in Marathi, nothing new there.
Lol... Prof-saar, I was ROTFL when Stephen Colbert actually got the names of my neck of woods better than most Indians! This was when he claimed he gave the famous "Colbert Bump" to the current MP's poll-stats during campaign.
http://tinyurl.com/3kpeg3m
(check at 2:00 about the metro-lines....LOL)
An upcoming event that *might* get interesting
http://thiruvananthapuramupdates.wordpress.com/category/life/literary/
Since I am out of town, I had begged the little birdies who run the blog to cover as much of certain aspects of the festival, including video, clippings, translations from local language. Like last time, we want a good show and watch it too. I expect a lot since the local kensei has come out of retirement after blessings from Lord Paddy (as per his own tweets :) ) and when he gets his "Hand of God" iaido going it is a treat to watch
This is why I enjoy Mav's blog ... everything under the sun is open for discussion, yet folks don't go overboard and post crap ...
btw, Mav, to return to your original point, I completely agree ... Delhi stinks of "power grab" ... however, if you are an old-timer, you know how to avoid those types ...
if you manage to do that, Delhi has a delicious intellectual sub-current and a refreshingly eclectic partying mindset ...
never a dull moment in either city ...
I still haven't figured out the overnight transformation of Bangalore ... it seems like there are two different cultures ... and the two haven't yet figured out how to reconcile to each other ...
in fact, it seems like the two are making like a couple of Englishmen, and waiting for someone to come along and introduce them to each other ... :)
hnair saab,
>>>> An upcoming event that *might* get interesting
more power to you ... as my retirement day gets closer, and I dream of my part time RTI, such things make the future brighter ...
The Tevatron in Illinois has been shut down. tear drop. Oh well, at least now zombie bugs from an alternate universe can't attack us from a rip in the fabric of the universe near Chicago anymore.
^^^ yes, RIP Tevatron ... but there will still be an accelerator at Fermilab ... and, it will have an upgraded intensity ... it has a very descriptive name: Project X
so, not free from alien bugs yet :)
General Ralphy BARF is saying unkile has tail between legs and running blowing hot and cold over Hackney circus, what do you think.
Mav I expect you to be equal opportunity blogger. Ralphy has fantastic ideas about BARF and advice to Indian as well. Lets see how cahritable he is to poor GIs killed by Most Flavored Allie of Uncle .
Comon Ralphy you must have some ideas still left in you, willing to listen to your wise discourse.
thanks boss in advance.
Meanwhile, cooperation in ADS continues ...
http://www.ivsnet.org/ADS/ADS2011/
Those in Mumbai can try to get an invitation ... I would have liked to go, but I have already traveled to India 3 times this year ...
A gem in nuke dhagaa:
"Cease and desist with character assassination here."
this is from the geniac who didn't even spare Bhabha in his rants :)
Thanks Prof-saar and glad to know about your RTI plans, however parttime!
btw, another more verse-oriented one is coming up - the Hay Festival. A veritable feast for us provincials, compared to the lucky Dill-Bom folks :) Usually it is slim pickings.
Without a comment and likely true
"Looks like Mullen has taken truth serum! One truth after the other is coming from him!"
Wonder where Dr. Tim the founder president of US pakistani forum circa 1997 stands on these revelation of new Mullen Gospel?
Ralphy the wise one any insights or simply gigling....
Ralphy*2,
You effort to tease out the truth wrt US-Pak relationship, as viewed from an Indian prism, is commendable. However, it is entirely pointless.
Realpolitik is not based on "truth", in whichever fashion you may define it ...
The point is that US and Pakistan have had a relationship that is to India's detriment ...
India and Russia had a relationship which was (evidently) to the detriment of several countries ...
Do you really have a point? Or, are you just airing your partial appreciation of issues as a badge of honor and hoping to cause discomfiture for others?
If you are a well-wisher of India (which I assume you are), then you would simply wish well for India ...
What does India lack in your view?
Why does India need to worry about a US-Pak relationship? And why do folks like you have to make like a demurring princess and call out others on the topic?
Ask yourself, what ails India?
Is it the US's fault that India does not posses the basic components of an advanced nation?
What exactly are you gaining/proving by posting your puerile barbs?
"Wonder where Dr. Tim the founder president of US pakistani forum circa 1997 stands on these revelation of new Mullen Gospel?"
Hmmmm, you wouldn't happen to be from Ann Arbor and a Michigander now would you?
Ralphy (and others) - forget BARF, Dr Tim and snow the idiot..
We all (Americans) should be afraid, very afraid .. or be careful not spill the coffee.
Read the WSJ story:
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2011/09/29/pakistan-students-show-anger-at-u-s/
Same video at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SsFGA5qblms
Worth watching.
Google gives the lyrics:
>>>>
Dushmano! tum ne us Qaum ko lalkara hai
Lalkara hai..............................Lalkara hai
(Enemy you have challenged that tribe ...)
Ka'aba hai jin ki jabeenon mai
Quran hai jin ke seenon mai
Allah ka dil ko shara hai
Dushmano! tum ne us Qaum ko lalkara hai
Lalkara hai..............................Lalkara hai
Hum jab Hilali parcham ko lehra ke qadam barhatay hain
Jhukta hai falak hilti hai zameen, Khud aan bhi khud gir jatay hain
Baatil ka naam mita dena dunya mai kaam hamara hai
Kafiro! tum ne us Qaum ko lalkara hai
Lalkara hai..............................Lalkara hai
Abbas-o-Kahlid-o-Tariq ki talwaron ki jhankaar hain hum
Dushman ko mitanay ki khatir shamsheer bakaf tayyar hain hum
Hur hukm-e-Khuda,Farmaan-e-Nabi(S.A.W) hamain apni jan se pyara hai
Buzdilo! tum ne kis qaum ko lalkaara hai
Lalkara hai..............................Lalkara hai
Har Momin ko har Ghazi ko rehmat ka sahara hota hai
Hum naam-e-Ali jab letay hain maidan hamara hota hai
chahay Mashriq ho ya Maghrib ho hum sab ka aik hi naara hai
Dushmano! tum ne us Qaum ko lalkara hai
Lalkara hai..............................Lalkara hai
Ka'aba hai jin ki jabeenon mai
Quran hai jin ke seenon mai
Allah ka dil ko shara hai
Dushmano! tum ne us Qaum ko lalkara hai
Lalkara hai..............................Lalkara hai
Singer : Tasawwur Khanum & chorus
Poet : Fayyaz Hashmi
Release : 4th Dec 1971
Radio Pakistan Lahore
Here is Pakis showing their "crush" on the well-wishers, I presume...
http://paktribune.com/images/pictorial/sunni-tehreek-dance-on-national-songs.jpg
(Image of "Crush USA" rally - people dancing on those songs)
I don't think the Americans are going to leave Afghanistan without severely curtailing the Pakistani ability to intervene in Afghan affairs.
The key to Pakistan's ability to intervene in Afghanistan is its ability to get random groups of Pathans to follow Islamabad's leadership. If the collective narrative of all Pathan tribes is completely filled with a poisonous distrust of all things Pakistani - then Pakistani influence in Afghanistan will end permanently.
If the Americans can get the ISI to act against the Haqqanis, this aim will have been achieved and Pakistan's involvement in Afghanistan will be over.
You are right GinC. I have never seen such magnificent warriors singing and dancing. Truely the gods themselves have created the chosen people of Pakistan. Our poor, undisciplined, out of shape and too fat couch potatoes could never hope to match these war like creatures of Pakistan. We are hopelessly out classed by the jihadis of the Quran.
GinC-ji,
You have inspired me again ... pesh hai:
Dushmano! tum ne us Qaum ko lalkara hai
Gu'bo hai jin ke gaa*don mein
dus percent hai jin je jaebon mein
Djinn hain jin ke kaboo mein
Dushmano! tum ne un ka mazaak udaya hai
Udaya hai ................ Udaya hai
Hum jab Hilal-e-chotu ko khada ke qadam barhatay hain
Jhukta hai Bilal, hilti hai Sherry
Malik-e-Rehman ki baatein hain
Qaatil ka naam mita dena, water hose hamare hai
Kafiro! tum ne us Qaum ko lalkara hai
Lalkara hai .......... Lalkara hai
ok, that was a parody ... however, Urdu is Indian heritage ... Pakistan can claim Arabian descent etc, but leave Urdu for India :)
in that spirit, pesh hai again:
Pakistaniyon tumne zubaan-e-Urdu churaya hai
kya kami hai tum sab ko, jo Arabi ne na mitaya hai
Adab arz hain, Miyan log.
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Mani ji - Wah! Wah!
(Now if some can put nice video with your words.
BTW, I thought that the words were:
बदबू मल-मूत्र पसीनो में
है sucide-vest भी सीनों पे
शैतान का जिससे यारा हे.
दुश्मनों ! तुम ने ...
उस सूअर पे डंडा मारा है.
ok, how do you type in davnagari?
Mani -
I just use google (http://www.google.com/transliterate)
Just type (as you have typed here)as you do .. and you will get nearly 100% accuracy..
****
If you want to load the ime, it will take only a few minutes to load ..
http://www.google.com/ime/transliteration/
Maverick, interesting blog!
The current state in Pak is not in the worst state of affairs as far as India is concerned. A troubled Pak, one that is at vicious war with itself will have less venom to target at India. Nukes are an issue, but frankly given the level to which the Pak military has gone about securing them (refer to Gen Rashid Kidwai's storied briefing on SPD), it would be tough for some loony islamist to lay his hands on a full working bomb with a delivery system.
As MJ Akbar said, Pak is a jelly state - and its transformation will perhaps take a few lifetimes. Till then, our policy of Pak management will have to remain at the realm of keeping them preoccupied in a royal mess of their own...JMT...
Thanks, GinC ... will give it a try.
Meanwhile, here is a video of the scientific advisor to Imran Khan:
http://tinyurl.com/3k4sq8e
I quit at the point where he says that Pakistan is more advanced than China in some technical areas ...
Somnath, are you the Somnath with the askew moral compass? :)
Hi Somnath,
"given the level to which the Pak military has gone about securing them... it would be tough for some loony islamist to lay his hands on a full working bomb with a delivery system."
Islamists (ISI and PA) already have control of the Paki nukes. True, they are not yet loony enough to just start lobbing nukes at targets for no reason -- not yet. But it could happen.
What constitutes "good reason" in a Paki Islamist's mind is not necessarily what you or I would judge reasonable, but I ask you to cast your mind back a few years to that article in Atlantic magazine where an American journalist reported about his conversation with a Pak Army brigadier who wanted to nuke India just because he was feeling depressed about Pakistan's future and saw no hope. He wanted to finish it all and start anew in Paradise. This kind of lunacy is a constant theme of people like Zaid Hamid and Hamid Gul.
Wow, GinC ji, that transliterate link was really neat! It's now one of my Firefox bookmarks.
What does the IME thing give you that the other link doesn't?
With IME, you don't need connection to web/google ..can work offline and type in Hindi (or urdu or any of Indian languages) directly in any application without cut and paste.
Quite good, (If you speak the language you can use it without a long learning curve).. for occasional or frequent use..(Better than, IMO, many expensive word processors, with its built in dictionary etc..)If you have Hindi key-board, fine, if not phonetic spelling works quite well too.
BTW, gmail (or most of google products) are *very* easy to use in hindi..
वाह गिंक साहब. मज़ा आ गया इस सॉफ्टवेर से ... बहुत बहुत धन्यवाद
क्या मेवेरिक इससे परेशान होंगे?
यह IME साला MAC-पसंद नहीं है
GinC,
>>>>> Ralphy (and others) - forget BARF, Dr Tim and snow the idiot..
Good point - I agree.
BARF has lost most of its value ... there is barely any original content ... it is all cut&paste of news articles and blogosphere ... of course, it has "added value" in terms of Hindutva analysis and Piskology ...
but, basically, it is tripe ...
even in terms of entertainment value, it is a close second to Def'n'Dumb ...
after Enqyoob left, even Benis has become boring ...
AnandK, indeed, the same without the moral compass! :(
Hi Dilbert, the question's really not about the presence of islamists in the Pak Army - thats tautological. Its about the degree to which they are willing to push the boundary. While they are not great strategic thinkers, I dont think they are stupid enough to not have throught through the consequences of a nuke strike:
1. If they say its done by "non state actors", their most prized national asset, ie, the nukes would be taken away by the world at large. If the worst fears of the world purportedly come true, the world would act.
2. If they own up to the strike as a legit military action, India would be constrained to reply. And that would be the end of the Paki state as we know.
Threatening with nukes serves the purposes of the Paki military elite just fine. Using them, well, I dont know. Actually, I dont think so...
JMT..
Hello Somnath,
You appear to be voicing the "let them stew in their own juices" theory that has been in vogue in New Delhi for several decades now.
It is certainly a very popular theory at the Press Club of India, and I am not qualified to comment on its accuracy.
MJA's comments on the Jelly state are interesting. The funny thing about gels is that no one really understands how they exactly creep or yield. It is not possible to exactly predict if you apply a large enough stress whether a gel will simply continue to creep at a slightly higher rate or whether it will collapse dramatically.
General Kidwai's assurances are valid as long as they are backed by concrete acts. If there is sufficient doubt in the minds of external observers, then I think that can't be good for Pakistan.
Containing the spread of extremism inside the PA ranks and in Pakistani society in general will have to remain a visible attribute of Pakistani national policy. And the results of the policy will have to remain completely transparent also.
Using Jihadis to destabilise neighbouring countries will no longer be a viable option in Pakistani national security calculations. It may be that the mere act of Pakistan verifiably renouncing sponsored violence in neighouring lands does wonders for peace in the region.
Mani/Dilbert - Glad you liked the google's transliteration.
Somnath - As I "broke" the moral compass story in this blog, sorry if it caused you any trouble. Personally, I have to some-what agree with Mani.. BRF (specially antics of Archan/Ramana) is becoming more and more like dumb-n-deaf..too bad because it has larger readership and some still try to keep some sanity there...
Now, I kid you not, they are SERIOUSLY discussing how "Secret US-Israeli Nuke Transfers
Led To Fukushima Blasts" all confirmed by Chaankaya's discovery of Pu. 40Km away...
Even, Djinn physicists would find that laughable ....
Move over Zaid Hamid, here come... Habal, Chaankaya and Theo idiots ...
>>> The actual cause of the blasts, according to intelligence sources in Washington, was nuclear fission of. warhead cores illegally taken from America's sole nuclear-weapons assembly facility. Evaporation in the cooling pools used for spent fuel rods led to the detonation of stored weapons-grade plutonium and uranium...
And..
At 99.9 percent purity, American-made uranium and plutonium is the world's finest nuclear material. The lack of mineral contaminants means that it cannot be traced back to its origin. In contrast, material from Chinese and Russian labs can be identified by impurities introduced during the enrichment process.
^^^ wow! 0.1% impurities only!! makes it soooo difficult!!!
[that is one part per thousand ... current techniques are aiming for one part per trillion only :) ]
In any case, what exactly is this 99.9% supposed to mean?
http://www.onislam.net/english/news/asia-pacific/449477-cocaine-invading-pakistan.html
"Pakistan customs recently seized 226 kg cocaine booked from Columbia at Karachi port, the largest ever quantity of cocaine seized in South Asia.
“We were shocked by the quantity as its price in the international market is estimated at Rs 3.5 billion (45 million dollars),” Qamar Thalo, a senior customs official, told OnIslam.
“Earlier, we used to seize one or two kg of cocaine and that too was intermittently. But for last few years, the consumption of cocaine has been increased to alarming level.”
I can't believe I missed this.
Why is Pakistan importing drugs?
Is it that Afghan maal is not for everyone and some Colombian coke is needed to satisfy the elite?
I noticed this little nugget of wisdom in BARF:
From the Iraq thread:
"All the countries in the west (except US) are part of the Geneva Convention. So, when they need to rob other countries, they use the hired gun of the west - the US, which is completely free of any legal obligations regarding war. This is trick that the west has played on the rest. They all share the benefits of the robbery, but they pretend that they are law abiding citizens of the world."
WTF!! The US first signed the Geneva Convention in 1882(?) and has signed all modifications up through 1949. The Senate has not ratified two protocols of 1977. They must of have been feeling irratable or something. Also, we will not subject our service men and women to war crime trials at the Hague Convention. But that is a separate agreement.
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Perlmutter gets the Nobel ... I once sat next to him in an airplane ... nice guy ... nice conversation.
http://tinyurl.com/3uy2dou
> why is Pakistan importing...
Mani - that is why I am kicking myself for missing that.
I have had a suspicion that the Pakistanis are attempting to set up a cocaine for heroin exchange.
There was a very large amount of cocaine intercepted by NCB at Nhava Sheva. Less than a month after that seizure, the 7/11 Railway bombings happened in Bombay.
The MO was typical to Pakistani terror groups and an LeT operator by the name of Raheel Sheikh was in the frame.
This is the first time I have heard of such large quantities of cocaine on Pakistani soil.
Was this cocaine intended for the US troops in Afghanistan? was it intended for India or China? was it going to Europe along Heroin routes?
A lot of questions - and very few answers.
^^^^
Mav,
assuming as always that ISI is setting up some elaborate new scheme, what bothers me is that the cocaine got busted ... if it was mai-baap ka maal, why was it intercepted? Are they sending a message? Or, was it culinary institute maal and ISI had it busted?
The Indo-Afghan agreement signed yesterday is really interesting. For the first time, India commits to "capacity building" of the Af forces. A euphemism for, well, pretty much anything under the sky.
A small commentary on the above in my blog.
http://chanakyan-sentinel.blogspot.com/2011/10/indo-afghan-dalliance-new-game-in-town.html
Dear Mani,
It could be due to factional differences between the Pakistani elite.
The news of the seizure appeared and disappeared very quickly. From the price estimates, 3 Bn Pak Rupees, and the quantity 225 kg, it appears to be comparable to the purity of Bolivian variety safaid samaan (Rs 8-10,000 per gram).
It is said that by late 2004, Pakistani drug barons had begun a bulk import of cocaine to Pakistan and the street price of the drug fell from 40,000 to 10,000 Rs per gram.
The only news we have is that there was a "tip off" from someone that Customs at Karachi received saying that there was a large quantity of cocaine disguised as plywood from a "South American" country.
It turns out that the vessel SS Hanjin Buenos Aires, arrived at Port Qasim from Suriname. The cocaine was found in a shipment bound for Lahore.
After that the matter has dropped out the news.
That CLT20 between Warriors and Royal Challengers is the best I have ever seen ...
As Ian Chappel said, imagine having a century and a 5-wicket haul for your team and end up losing ...
brilliant stuff!
Hi Mani,
Some more math.
The US imports an estimated 300 MT of cocaine and has an estimated 2 Million users. That works out an average of 150 g of pure cocaine per person per year.
Pure cocaine is cut by about half at the dealer level. So the average cocaine user uses 300 gms of street cocaine a year. So 225 kg of cocaine is enough to support the habit of 1500 addicts for a year.
In Pakistan, 1 gm =10,000 Pak Rs. So 150 gms per years means a 15,00,000 per year budget. That is very high - only the super rich can afford that.
Per media reports, the average Pakistani dealer clears about 25g of uncut cocaine a week. So 225 kg is the equivalent of 173 dealer-years in Pakistan.
If we assume that the DEA estimates of seizures hold for Pakistan as well - i.e. ~5% of all shipments are seized, then Pakistan should be taking in about - 3460 dealer-years worth of cocaine for domestic consumption alone.
So now the question is - how many of these ships are coming in to Port Qasim annually?
Dear Somnath,
The problem with training any Afghan force is that people you train simply up and leave the ranks of the state and take up private agendas (mostly criminal).
Discipline is a pervasive problem, and this is attributed to the fact that Afghan national identity seldom overpowers tribal and ethnic forces.
Tajiks make great soldiers and police officers, but Pashtun subordinates frequently refuse to take orders from them. Hazaras are completely under-represented in the forces and feel no loyalty towards either community. The people of Herat are cultured and make extremely good detectives and intelligence officers, but they can't stand the company of others like the Uzbeks. The Uzbeks make good fighters as long as the campaigns are short and human rights is not an issue.
Sure India could train these forces with less money than the Americans did - but the effectiveness of an Afghan force will continue to be limited.
The Taliban overcame this problem by playing the religious card to overcome the native loyalty structure. It didn't really work and Afghan talibs seldom were as cohesive a force as their Punjabised counterparts from Pakistani madrassas.
The Afghan element of the Taliban remained a fractious lot, with each governor behaving in a fashion that was marginally better than the Mujaheddin warlord that preceded him.
There was an amazing article recently about the head of Kabul CID, it made for very good reading and offered a unique window in the problems facing the development of basic policing in the region.
BTW - Somnath, I agree that unlike the Americans, we have seen such problems in India and that puts the GoI in a unique position to help Afghanistan...
but this is not going to be easy.
Maverick,
Where is all this bhaichara towards the Pakistanis coming from? Fuck them all. Right down to the very last gali ka kutta.
As Kao once said, let them stew in their own juices. And stir the pot from time to time.
LOL, Sparsh, I'm inclined to agree with you.
RIP Steve Jobs.
I hate asking silly questions, but where and what will the supply line consist of, to Afghanistan for India?
GinC:
Yes, RIP Steve Jobs. A good example of the temperaneous extent of life despite money and fame.
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>>>> where and what will the supply line consist of, to Afghanistan for India?
Through the perceived axis of evil as opposed to the real axis of evil where american supplies go through ...
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Dang, with some new responsibilities I have taken on, I have to be careful what I say ... time to find a burqa, perhaps.
Dear Sparsh,
We have to be on our guard - but cannot afford reflexive hostility.
The Pakistanis have a tendency to be perpetually belligerent - but what that has done to them - is now obvious to everyone in the world.
Eventually - they themselves will grow weary of it - just as the rest of the world has grown weary of their bs.
"Through the perceived axis of evil as opposed to the real axis of evil where american supplies go through ..."
LOL, well put, prof!
Ralphy, your question is not stupid at all, I have thought about it many times, and the only answer is the obvious one, as the prof said -- through Iran and into Afgh, bypassing Pakistan (the real centre of evil). Of course the US and Israel won't be happy about it, but that's too damned bad.
dilbert,
There may well be differences in the requirements for the supply line ... here is my take for Indian vs US supply needs:
1. Oil: Trucks from Iran rather than ship+truck through Pakistan. Much cost saving here. India is building a refinery in Charbahar, right?
2. Food: Indian troops may well be able to source food directly from Afghanistan markets because dietary needs are better matched.
3. Infrastructure items: Will Indian troops be able to occupy what has been developed already by the US?
4. Misc personal items etc: I believe Indian troops will have much less need for importing stuff rather than using local goods.
5. Weapons/hardware: Airlifted?
What else? I am trying to argue that there will be a much diminished need for having a supply caravan on a daily basis.
Oil can come from Russian/Kazakh/Azeri sources.
India won't need to ship in MREs. It may be possible to multiplex shipments to Indian troops with food and medical supplies already making it there as civilian aid.
Infrastructure wise - Frmr-SU architecture and Frmr-US bases will be usable - but - I think the biggest difference is that Indian troops will not need as much air conditioning as their US/NATO counter parts.
Weapons will come from captured sources or overland from Russia/FSU. The big advantage is that India will not have an aversion to soviet weapons.
Indian supply route will be much more compact to the point where it can completely exclude Pakistan.
The biggest loser will be Pakistani trucking companies making top dollar on shipping toilet paper to Afghanistan.
Also after US leaves no one will have any reason to think about Pakistan.
The costs of bridging linguistic differences will be lower but comparable.
It may be possible to adapt a panchayati raj system is evolved for use in Afghanistan.
As I said before - the hard part will be fusing the Afghans into a truly national force where a person is respected irrespective of their ethnic or caste background.
Perhaps even some ideas from the quota/reservation/affirmative action system developed in India can be implemented in Afghanistan?
Naturally, AIR,DD will be setting up Pashto, Dari etc... services.
With regard Afghan security services.
I think the biggest change may be the establishment of an Afghan version of the CRP/CPMF and Afghan version of the RR.
Fundamentally, the US approach in Afghanistan was centered on "killing Al Qaida" first and everything else later.
The Indian approach might center on healing Afghan society first and Al Qaida etc... second.
Hmm... "Wall Street is America's Tahrir Square".
Interesting....
Could we finally be seeing the American left's response to the Tea Party antics emerging from the wood work?
Looks more like sea-of-green in Iran right now.
From the tone of the Tea Party's reactions - it appears that they are not willing to lend their spot as the US' top astroturfing phenomenon.
You know - India never won a hockey match in the Olympics after astroturf was introduced.
"ahead of the curve" geniacs on Barf are just discovering the Pakistani amby to the UN ... that faker has been around for a long time ... if some folks would only get their heads out of their Hindutva holes and look about ...
Barf lurkers: here he is,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussain_Haroon
Amber G is close to losing moral compass ... Isharamaster is questioning it ... Nishanebaaz will follow soon ... LOL.
I just don't see large scale military presence from India in Afghanistan. No way. Company or battalion sized training group? Yeah, that's possible. But nothing larger than that from India's military.
Here is a medley of all time great mujras with a modern interpretation ... the dance is technically not very good, but still pleasing to the eye:
http://tinyurl.com/3e9zwte
I'd be curious to know what the Maulanas here think of this.
Of course, Paklurks can eat their heart out ...
Ralphy, if you could only appreciate this, you would know the difference between India and Pakistan :)
Pakistan makes movies of women singing and dancing? That's gotta be an Indian movie.
^^^ so, you do know the difference :)
India makes these and appreciates them ...
Pakistanis appreciate these but issue Fatwas against them in public ...
therein lies the rub.
Ralphy -
I am sure you know, but the lady in dance is a Miss World...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/29/60minutes/main663862.shtml
Gurudev T
Why would you post modern remakes of the classics when originals are there on youtube ? No one comes close to Madhubala.
Btw Ralphy might not appreciate such subtle moves and harkats; may be 'Haseena atom bomb' might be his type of a movie :P
negi ji,
I asked specifically what folks thought about the fusion ... Ash has incredible grace ... and tremendous stage presence ... my Q was whether those things made up an act that matched the classics ...
your vote seems to be in the negative ...
but ok, if you don't want to travel back to Madhubala, here is part one where she does Rekha:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVqvVRXhG-4
the younger generation seems to need rhythm no matter what the art form ... they don't find the "taal" on the tabla sufficient ... Ash seems to be bringing in that element ... but her hand mudras are classical ...
not sure how much of this Mav will put up with, so I'll take a break.
"Btw Ralphy might not appreciate such subtle moves and harkats; may be 'Haseena atom bomb' might be his type of a movie :P"
I think we are dealing with cultural expectations here. I am really not into song and dance routines. I like music and I really like to see women dancing. But to purposefully watch a movie for such enetertainment is really not my style, no.
Mani - Your comments inspired the following ...
कुछ गधे घास खाते हैं.
कुछ moral compass खाते हैं.
बाबु समजो इशारे अब.
निशाने-बाज़ जब वो पास आते हैं.
May be it is just a prelude to Phillip latest CT in nuke dhaga.
Mav-saar, looks like Afghans decided they need "law enforcement" with more muscle than a lathi and willing to listen to Kabul. Good choice. Without Pakis' direct staffing, the Taliban is just a law and order issue that can be dealt inside the society. We found that out in Cashmere.
Prof-saar, agree Ash is fine in "taal" department and that is something that gasping starlets dont seem to get! But I am a bit of "range of motion" ayatollah that believes in "a fully committed mudra" (brought up amidst Mulla Omarish fanaticism of Trivandrum's Kathakali momin).
Dixit-amma always had that aspect and I had commented about her robust ribcage in the past. That be SOME range of motion :D
(ducking out before Mav-saar wields the chenda-stix)
GinC,
That is hilarious...
Heric Nairgolis,
The Pakistani intervention in Afghanistan relies on the idea that Pakistan will give arms to Afghans - specifically Pashtuns, and they will use those arms to kill people *in* Afghanistan AND they will not use the arms to kill people in Pakistan. If the Pakistanis can no longer direct the flow of violence towards Afghanistan and instead the violence flows in an unfettered stream towards Aabpara chowk itself - then Pakistan's Afghan strategy fails completely.
At that point - the Pakistanis will cease to intervene and the "taliban" are simply high intensity crime.
I think that tipping point is close.
A great deal of Pakistanis - even the savants of the ISI - are probably asking themselves, how much money has been pouring into Afghanistan from the Pakistani side?
Could the same amount invested in an ONG pipeline from Iran to India have yielded a better return?
I think it may be good to depute Indian policemen to Afghanistan and Afghan policemen to India.
The problem right now is that despite the fact that police are so heavily armed in Afghanistan - the people do not recognize the state as an neutral arbiter of public safety.
I would go so far as to say that the heavy handed policing does not increase public confidence and instead breeds the impression that the state is desperate to stamp its authority on a population that simply sees the Karzai government as illegitimate and installed by American power.
The Americans have made a good deal of progress on rebuild the Afghan armed forces. If this is complemented with improvements in the Afghan police and judiciary then there will be a bigger island of stability.
RIP Sqn Ldr. Baldev Singh.
Mansoor Ijaz is blowing his role in things out of proportion.
Glad to know the "perceived" axis of terror would neve promote the use of terror unlike the "real" axis of terror. Of course that is just conspiracy theory, eh? :->>
evil, ralphy, evil ...
didn't Dubya teach you right?
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