A sensible way to run a website dedicated to debate about India's national security affairs
I have been thinking about this issue after exchanges with several of my readers on the last thread.Presently, we are confronting the aftermath of a terrible moderation failure inside the forum. However in the context of discussions on the moderation failure, a number of issues have come out - pertaining to the role of politics, to the role of the "original conception" of the website, and the addictive nature of power - just to name a few.
Though I confess my heart is heavy after this episode and I feel a lot of my own dreams about the forum and website have been crushed - I would like to have something positive come from this mess.
Needless to say - these are my views - not those of anyone I may or may not know.
To begin - the problems we are seeing are the direct result of a lust for power. Power corrupts, it removes the sense of balance that keeps personal ambition in check. In order to run a website like this - one must create instutional safeguards against power lust.
A relatively simple scheme to guard against this tendency is to have a single fixed time period for forum administrators. The knowledge that the stay in a position of power is a limited one time affair, will deter abuse.
While this places great pressure on the system to select new moderators, there is a way to mitigate this. If one creates a tenure scheme by which any poster who has posted for longer than a certain number of years, and has made certain (significant) contributions to the website in the form of publications, organisation etc... will automatically be up for promotion to moderator rank.
Once such a poster has accepted moderator rank - they will be bound by a rigid code of conduct which will cover their public utterances on political, sectarian and ethnic issues. The power of such moderators will be clearly defined and administrative actions will have to fit a transparent format. A transparently moderated debate will eliminate the need for special management procedures that have hitherto been in vogue.
The next question is - what will happen to the old moderators and founding fathers?
I propose that the founding fathers form a board of governors. A governing board like this could focus on the development of the wider interests of the website. Barring extreme situations, there would be no reason for the members of the board to intervene in the running of the website or the forum though they would be free to contribute in any way of their choosing as ordinary members. If the founding fathers can remain on the forum as ordinary members - then surely the newest of the newbies will learn a great lesson in humility - a lesson they will carry forth into their stay as moderators.
I suggest that upon retirement the former moderators and site administrators (if they so choose) be invited to stay on the forum as ordinary members. Having renounced their moderator rank - they would be free of the burden that it carries. Their presence on the forum, would effectively create a large local pool of knowledge and enrich the collegiate atmosphere necessary to mentor newer and younger members joining the forum.
With adequate mentorship and moderation - I do not see why such an experiment would not succeed in producing a vibrant environment for sensible debate on India's national security issues.
posted by maverick @ 3:07 PM
790 Comments:
A clear abuse of power, is evident by DisHon. Webmaster's this post:
>>> Arun_S quote starts ..
posting from IAEA draft document thread as it is relavent in this mainstream discussion:
[url=http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/12/stories/2008071255321200.htm][b]BJP’[/b]s ‘questions’ on IAEA draft[/url]
[quote] And for 50GWe the lifetime fuel requirement is equivalent to mining 1.513 million tonnes of Natural Uranium and enriching it to medium enrichment. At current price of Uranium @ $68/Lb that is $226.5 Billion cost. Plus the enrichment cost of $77 billion (@$90/SWU). So the minimum cost of avoiding the repeat of TAPS-1 is to buy all that fuel in next 6 years for a cost of [b]$303 billion[/b].
A[/quote][/quote]
Better check the numbers again. I think the BJP in its haste to criticize is getting confused between uranium ore and the price of U308 (yellowcake). Recalculate and you get completely different numbers.[/quote]
Ldev: In the above you are insinuating that the post and calculations in it ware not mine but were provided by BJP. That is patently a lie and libel. Let me put it on record that I have no BJP affiliation nor any connection with the BJP party lowbies or high ups.
[b]I demand an apology for your insinuation and libel.[/b]
>>>>>>>
Note, that its Dis Hon. Webmaster who put the BJP link and then goes bonkers (there are multiple messages intimidating Ldev after by this worthy)
Sorry, disHonorable Webmaster has no decency.
the good news is that the sensible posters are opposing this abuse of power and calling it like it is
LOL
ROFLMAO
LOL
if I had designed for and prayed to all the Djinns in the world, I could not have come up with a better scenario on DF ...
UberMeltDown onlee ...
ldev, I feel bad for you dude ... but perhaps, you are being targeted because you post here ...
get a different handle if you care ...
but this one is EL-Bizzarro ... IsharaMaster-jee and MegaBC Darpok-jee are queit and letting poor Rahul_M-jee take the fall ...
LOL
ROFLMAO
LOL
WebMaster-jee can abuse AK, KS, MMS et al all he wants but a mere suggestion that he is wrong brings forth this DemandApologitis ...
DF minus BENIS dhagaa is a pure comedy sans sarcasm ... :)
Maverick..you make interesting points here but alas you seem to forget one fundamental thing nothing is perfect , and that is true for BRF Admins too . Point being I am sure even if BRF were to follow a new system proposed by you , at some point in time it too would have faced issues for people either critics/detractors to pounce upon.
The problem is no two men think alike and neither does everyone have same level of tolerance for each others views ; what you propose might obviously work for all people who think like you ; but in an open forum and a medium which is free for all one will come across instances which might not be pleasant or conducive for discussion.
All in all its impossible to make everyone happy.
Btw imo even BRF junta will be benefited if posters on this blog actually discuss the topics from a different perspective.
To substantiate.. just think about the idea to moderate this blog with same guidelines what you propose for BRF :)
Just read narayanan's post on DF.
Wow! There are 2 other posts after that...
N's post is worth reading: I will post it here, before Dishonrable Webmasterji edits deletes...
>>>>>>>
The Forum netas often jump on people and demand that all personal discussions be taken offline to email, but the above exchange shows a situation where the aam janata might in our ignorance feel for a microsecond that some of the newer Admins need some basic training about the birds, bees, use of toilets etc, and there is a serious problem with "older" Admins confusing forum Moderator status with something else.
Tell me, is it now really such a feud-quality insult for one postor to suggest that another postor is representing the view of some organization? Heck, I must have missed the chances for a whole law library worth of :(( :(( :(( . There are few evil organizations in the world (not to mention the Aliens) that I haven't been associated with by one postor or other (most shaheed, pbuh, but not because of me).
I read the exchange. I happen to agree that ldev had fairly good reason to suggest something of the sort he suggested. Now what business is that of mine? Well... two admins above seem to have ganged up and decided "we reviewed your answer and found it insufficient". Pity the P.E.N.I.S. thread isn't around - we could have commented on that in much clearer terms...
Well... I read all of it and found it quite sufficient. That makes it two against two, of course two mere peasants against two ADMINS. :shock: :eek:
With all due respect, ArunS and RahulM should please not bring their Admin-ness to debates where they clearly have some strong opinion or other. Decide whether you are Moderator or Arguer, and don't run off :(( :(( and take the bat and stumps home and call the goondas just because you lose on the playing field.
This is really sad to see. I could not believe it until I read it a few times. A much better thing to do, will be for BOTH Arun_S and Rahul_M to de-activate their Admin user IDs for the next few weeks until they cool off. Calvin did that for a while, all credit to him, it greatly improved my respect for him, so when he returned I resumed poking him, I am sure.
Neither Arun_S or Rahul_M is behaving in a particularly mature way, sorry. Chill out, both of you, please.
>>>>
>>>
The only ones who question India's security at its nuclear reactors are Americans.
And honestly I have never known how to interpret that line of public commentary from the US.
>>>
there is only one way to interpret it, like you have done with the stranger enquiring about family analogy.
they are basically sending out a warning that they will target Indian nuclear reactors by proxy.
naveen Negi-jee,
If Blato was a Plogger on BostiveNeuj, he may have asked,
"Who will Pan the Panner-jee?"
:)
Sirji..
I have stated my pov on this on relevant thread on BRF.
On an open forum its for everyone to see and judge as to who is correct and who is wrong.
Chota munh badi baat ho jayegi
>>>>>>>> On an open forum its for everyone to see and judge as to who is correct and who is wrong.
very possible ...
however, some of us have a very detached view of this tamasha ...
detached, but not totally disconnected ...
sort of like the official scorekeeper in a Test Match is "involved" yet "not-involved" in the match ...
:)
Bhat you are missing diyar negi pirader ij the simble phakt that adminullahs are subbosed to show a HIGHER ishtandard than the comon abdul. Iph it waaj simbly two abduls with swords at each other, then an adminullah could but them poth in blace and it could pe treated as "any other depate on WWW". Aj menshuned earliyar py jirga-in-chief -
"postors who exhibit traits such as NOT getting into heated arguments, maintaining their cool, contributing positively towards the forum for a considerable period of time are considered for admin jobs and given our invitations..."
Henje a jirga memper ij ekjbekted to dijblay a suberior pehavior than a common abdul, they CANNOT pe treated aj equalj, aj you sujjesht. Notij that in in tsij case there are TWO adminullahs damanding a klarifikashun/abology phrom an abdul.
You are phree to ask phaar an abology phrom me and my goat phor tsij lipel and my uje oph the suberior zabaan. AoA...Dar-E-pokullah.
welcome Mullah-e-Original-jee ...
the Plog ij serbhing its burbose ...
:)
LOL
ROFLMAO
LOL
if I had designed for and prayed to all the Djinns in the world, I could not have come up with a better scenario on DF ...
I have to say that too!
Dear Naveen,
I agree nothing is perfect - and that is a human thing, however to seek perfection is also human.
A blog by its very nature is a personal viewpoint or affair. I am not a "webmaster" - I am a "blogger".
This blog does not claim to be anything more than my idle musings. It is not a forum - I am not attempting to become BR in any way.
I do not seek to provide a place for debate on national security affairs in India.
Wherever possible I have tried to keep damaging debate off this website and that represents the limit of what I feel is feasible here.
What I am suggesting could be a natural evolution for BR - but as the comments are of a general nature - they apply to any website that may be involved in providing similar services.
Raju,
Your interpretations are your own.
I have simply said - that in Mumbai when strangers come up to you and tell you they are worried about your family's health - you become worried.
It is a cultural phenomena - perhaps unique to Mumbai.
Raju,
Your interpretations are your own
ofcourse it is my interpretation, I wrote it. Not familiar wit Mumbai slangs .. so kindly excuse.
Dar-e-pok ji -
I believe you believe in cycles, (I vaguely remember your likho - 13 steps - dictator /riots cycle of the land of the pure..
So I poochh -
Now since street brawls are breaking out in DF? Do you know when will the emergency declared or martial law imposed?
Ginc-uddin bin poochi,
Blis to naat konfoos me with anyone else. I do naat know apout the chakkar-e-month-e-13. I do naat see a bossipility oph qanoon-e-martial peing abblied on the abduls aj oph noow. Jirga is imberfekt put not phully Musharrafian. I hobe something bositive (as in bositive neuj) comes out oph tsij ebisode. I do see the humple requesht to take the diskusshin "offline" like Geo TV waaj but offline py brophet Musharraph. There are some pehind the scenes n-e-go-ciashuns going on petween the muezzins and the brying journalishts hab peen parred phrom proadkasting the broceedings oph the sharia kourt. Anybay, I waaj exbekting to pe not bhery bhelkome hiyar (pecause oph my suberior zabaan), put it seemj like the jirga hiyar ij phreindly like like tarrel than mountain fliends.
Dar-e-pokuddin bin jawabdehi.
LOL, Dar-e-Pok, glad to see you here.
I notice the fever temperature on the forum going up. The lunatic fringe (CramS, Acharya etc.) is increasing its level of shrillness, but the sensible ones (Amber, LDev, Rangudu, N3) are injecting hefty doses of antibiotics to fight the infection.
Let us see if the fever breaks. :)
Sorry, forgot to include HonWeb in the lunatic fringe. And Philip too has been howling at the moon about the nuke deal.
Thanks Dar-e-pokji and dilbertji for your posts.
Hope you guys are right and sanity prevails in DF.
DisHonorable Webmasterji do not seem to get it even now, if one goes by his last comments:
Ldev wrote:
>>>>
This message is to clarify that my post which started this mini fracas in no way was intended to indicate or insinuate that Arun_S was speaking on behalf of the Bharatiya Janata Party with respect to the questions that were posed in his earlier post.
Hope this clarifies matters fully.
>>>
Webmasterji:
>>>>
Yes, it does clarify and settles the issue now.
>>>>
Spoken Like a true (fill in the word)
Hi,
I think there is considerable resentment building up against the treasury for taking this deal through despite the Left's open dissent.
There is anger in the BJP also because the relatively low price public posturing strategy has to give way to real horse trading on the floor of the parliament.
It is only natural that the blood pressure will run high at times like this on the forum.
The resolution of this "mini-fracas" seems sensible to me.
ldev has issued a clarification but not an apology. I think this is fine - because there as no insinuation was made - there was no need for an apology.
I think it is good that the Hon. Webmasters has publicly distanced himself from the BJP. Associating with his extreme views would prejudice the BJP's interests.
This matter has ended as well as it could have... under the circumstances.
Alas, the problem of credibility remains.
Such conduct - where charges of "libel" are flung by an Admin - only to have himself exposed to the same charges by others - showcase the lack of credibility that the moderation team is facing.
The Hon. Webmaster is clearly using his position of privilege inside the forum to push a partisan agenda. There are no insitutional checks and balances to prevent such an abuse of power.
ldev has pointed to an element of bias in the manner in which Hon. Webmaster has operated in this matter. This is not a light charge to lay at a moderator's door. This is the same charge that Acharya appeared to try and slip in with an off-the-cuff remark. JEM's response to this was swift and eliminated the possibility of any allegation of bias.
Unfortunately - Hon. Webmaster's conduct makes all such charges of bias stick permanently. His choice of language to describe people that oppose his views leaves no room for avoiding charges of a bias. If ldev can make charges of bias stick against Hon. Webmaster - it opens the door for others to credibly make such a claim.
Narayanan has also highlighted the problem caused by the "on/off" ritual with the Admin hat. As he points out - this is not a sensible way to have a debate. It may be possible to say "chalta hai" to this in an environment where the moral authority of the moderation team is not challenged - however in an atmosphere were the abuse of power was so obvious and charges of bias are sticking - you can't ignore the loss of moral authority.
The need for visible action to restore moral authority of the moderation team grows with each passing minute.
Mav:
As usual you are being a gentleman and stating the various problems on the forum rather mildly. You could, with justification, have been much harsher. The fact is, at least three of the LF (lunatic fringe) have behaved like whiney crybabies in recent months.
CramS: Anything and everything is about race with this guy. He is a bigot no less than any Grand Dragon of the KKK. "These white-guy honkies have contempt for a poor SDRE like me. They are a contemptible bunch. Whine, whine whine! And the rest of you SDREs don't get any ideas -- they hate you too. They are white, we are Desperate Darkies. Moan, moan, moan!".
Acharya: "You Yindoo bhais just look at my Taxonomy of Traitorous Indian Elite. It will explain to you why this nuclear deal stinks. Remember the Rothschilds onlee! Wait... I think I saw an EJ lurking in the shadows."
HonWeb: "We need 100MT tests, 100yr fuel supplies and 100MB Excel spreadsheets. BJP zindabad!"
Philip: "Wait! I think I saw an IAEA spy hiding behind that rock. Stop him! He's heading for TAPP to plant microphones and cameras. We will be colonised for 500 years onlee!"
Have I missed anyone?
I must compliment DF on its creativity ...
when faced with no new arguments, some joker will manufacture one...
witness sigriva dude and "transmorgifier" ... LOL
another mystery on DF is NRao going on and on about "reproc tech" ... no one has yet asked him to spell out in one simple paragraph what he means by it ...
yet, they all agree that "India will be denied this tech" ...
:)
ok, nuk-e-add, i.e. the real Nukkad, finally has a big Godrej ka taalaa on it ...
hopefully, folks will come here and continue? ... :)
AoA, the taala haj peen but in order to brevent the truth that waaj jusssst apout to come out. Tsij ij a conbiracy-e-adminullah Let me clariphy -
The diskusshion waaj naturally brogressing towards the correkt conklushun which ij tsij:
SoniaG ij a bhestern blant. Yes!!! you heard it hiyar phirst. She waaj sent py Atlant-e-cists to woo RG bhen he waaj young and gulliple. He phell in love and consummated the nikah. Then the same Atlant-e-cysts had him removed (like Moshurraf removed BB). Now opviously their man...errr wo-man waj in the driver's seat now. They have sinje peen kontrolling things phrom pehind (like the AmirKhans do in Bakistan).
Now I know tsij phrome some very very highly blaced beebul in the "khopdi aur haddi" jirga. Blis to naat ask their naams pecause oph discreshionary reajonj. And do naat contr-e-dict me, pecause I know beebul bhery high up in govarmand-e-hindostan.
dilbert, CRamS aspires to be a "real american"
so if he wishes to be an american, shouldn't he be supporting his own country?
i wonder how these people manage to live with such contradictions.
the talaa s now open ...
but the REAL theories are finally coming out after playing COY for so long ...
hold on to your seats folks ... the real culprt has been revealed ...
it is CAWTHORNE!
how will children sleep tonight?
ok, so here is this dude ... what is his relevance in 2008? ... why should we all go hide in dark narrow places because "caw ka kanta" will get ya?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Major General Walter Joseph Cawthorn, CB, CIE, CBE, Director of Military Intelligence, India
[Director of Intelligence, India Command, 1941-5; Deputy Director of Intelligence,
South East Asia Command, 1943-5; Representative of Commander in Chief India on Joint Chiefs of Staff
Australia, 1945-7; Deputy Chief of Staff, GHQ Pakistan Army, from 1948.] Worked with Mountbatten.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
the latest chaal-e-chaalakiyat is this:
"MMS is too busy with the nuke deal while inflation is up etc. he has no time for anything else"
Wah! ... the reason he is busy with the deal is because every joker in India has made it issue #1 ... everyday, new "new clear eggjperts" are writing column inches ...
the bloody deal could have been wrapped up one year ago if it weren't for Karat-e-chop types ...
dilbert, You missed His highness Shakuni Hon Ishaara Master Ramana:
"AK is obviuosly illogical. The only logical guy is the great Indian elite taxonomist Acharaya defacto dejure...Caput tuum in ano est...."
Danny,
LOL, you're right about the Ishara Master. I forgot that he often throws out ishaaras in Latin. :)
brutus fulmen , y'all! de facto, de jure, cui bono and have a nice day!
yup, Ishara Master was In Flag Rinto Delicto* ... or some such ...
[* I hope that means what I think it means :) ]
An entry into the Taxonomy hall of fame:
LIE == Latinized Indian Elite
surely, mango man knows no Latin Shatin ... :)
If not having a tested weapon is cause to doubt India's ability to defend itself - then that same logic could be applied to Israel as well.
Why stop there - we all know that the American warheads have numerous problems and with a declining economy - there is no money to pay for large numbers of weapons reduce the probability of a misfire.
If the RRW is inducted without a test - then the US is effectively "nuke nude" too.
Dear Dilbert,
The manner in which some of the forumites have approached this nuclear deal - does us all a great disservice.
The way I see it is that to discredit rational and natural patriotic sentiment among Indians one has to attach wings of racial hatred, religious animosity and conspiratorial thinking.
This is the exact opposite of the patriotism I see in India and that I have imbibed from those around me.
The over enthusiastic manner in which the so-called patriots on the forum have attacked the deal by repeatedly flashing militaristic credentials and "Hindu" cards only discredits and tarnishes the name of Indian patriotism.
They make Indian patriotism into a neurotic affair with imaginary enemies.
The ease with which they epithets of like "traitor", "sellout","co-conspirator" etc... at their opponents in the field of debate is highly suggestive.
Given that these people all get their paychecks from the very companies that form the core of most of their global domination theories - one might draw.. how should I put it ... a natural conclusion?
The conspiracy angle works both ways.
If indeed the forces conspiring against India are so pervasive - how is it that a bunch of Indians living in the US - and working for the same "white men" are ... shall we say magically immune to the conspiracy?
Surely if the Grand Masters of this conspiracy can reach out across 10,000 miles and pull the strings on the Prime Minister of India... it can't be that much more difficult for them to co-opt a low ranking employee in a private company in California or Bangalore?
Defending onself against a charge of conpiracy is very hard.
One could easily argue that the behaviour of some people on the forum is a "conspiracy to defame Indian patriotism".
This is from NRao,
>>>>>>>>>> Listening to the US, I feel, that the first step to gain control over this mess is to account for ALL atoms, without exceptions. (Then reduce their presence based on %age. Goal being to reduce the bad atoms to zero.)
NRao,
In case you read this blog ..
what you are suggesting above is impossible to do ...
I wish that someone would make a YouTube movie of what an IAEA Babu does for a living ...
He will compete well with any Indian Railways Babu in the (Chai-pane/Work) ratio ...
He knows his "signed in triplicate" duties very well ...
He can lose FisMat right under his nose just like the Railways can lose wagons on their own tracks ...
He is never in a hurry ... of course, just like the Railways :)
"count all atoms"
err... count avogadro's number?
Wow..
That is beyond science fiction.
Bah humbug! Avogadro was a spy working for the Vatican. What could he know about science?!!
You are repeating a conspiracy from the khopdi aur haddi people onlee. :)
Pah!
Don't ya Mlecchas don't know about the Akshahridayas in Indian Mythology? Ascended Masters who can see through 1000 year old conspiracies can easily count the number of atoms running inside the reactor (including the reactor lining and the whole fr1ggin reactor itself) in one glance. Don't you Macaulyites know about the glorious traditions of Hinduism with adherents such as Yudhistira and Rituparna who were certified Akshahridayas?
Cry, my beloved country! Cry!
:P
PS: And DON'T mention Dune's Mentats here. That was also obviously copied from our ancient past. Just like the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem and recipe of Little Debbie's Swiss Rolls.
This comment has been removed by the author.
jokes apart,
a lot of math did happen over here that got transmitted to the west in the medieval era.
I am sure you remember the recent revelations about the kerala school
http://www.physorg.com/news106238636.html
Nevertheless , i know of researchers ( and they are not Sanghis , not a bit) who are uncovering the trail in the medieval period..
Also we must remember something that the "scientific" bent that the Arab civilisation showed in that era was in no small measure due to the fact that hordes of persian and kurd scholars had settled in the arab capitals and were broadly known as "Arab scholars".
Al-Khawrizmi was persian with may be some Kurd blood as well,
This comment has been removed by the author.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Maverick ,
the khans have kept the test option open and the NPA lobby "opposes" the RRW since it "would need testing to satisfy the military".
here's one of their favourite places.
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/a-big-step-backward-on.html
excerpt
---------
Complex 2030 also increases the likelihood that the United States will drop its moratorium on nuclear testing. While the plan's stated goal is to deploy the new weapons without conducting nuclear tests, it is foolish to assume that U.S. military commanders and policy makers will agree to do so.
>>>I am sure you remember the recent revelations about the kerala school
http://www.physorg.com/news106238636.html
Yes. Some are getting credit too (Eg.. Gregory Series for arctan is now, quite often called madhava-Gregory series) ...
Anand K,
There used to be a Prof. Kothari in Delhi (can't recall if he was from DU or JNU) who spent his life proving that Mahabharat was a new Clear war ...
used to roam around Kurukshetra with a Geiger Counter ...
I don't understand why folks look for "glory" of India in such mundane matters ...
the Bajrangi Elites and UberRakshaks are equally clueless in this regard ...
in the religion thread of DF, this is what I tried to get across and got banned ... :)
basically, everyone's "logic" goes out the window when asked to apply that Logic to their own Religious Beliefs ...
opposing the nuke deal on the basis of test-shest is wrong .
In my opinion the option to test has never been foreclosed anywhere.
one thing that people should note about this deal is that the grand old men of India, who despite being on opposite sides of the political spectrum , more or less have voiced convergent views on this deal.
it should be kept in mind that keeping aside the political rivalry most of these gentlemen have known each other for almost half a century and have been party to several important decisions in the past , wherein they displayed consensus.
bottomline is ,these guys have the political maturity and they do understand each other regardless of what their younger colleagues (in both parties) may seek to project.
Alok bhai,
looney tunes aside , the rediscovery of medieval Indian maths is important . because their approach to several problems is different from the treatment that was developed in the west.
And really, i don't care a frig if the west "recognises" anything . I don't respect people who run around looking for a "stamp" from the west.
However if research in these areas leads to some novel math , why not?
take game theory for example.
while describing the way the unions operated in Mauryan times , Kautilya clearly talks about "strategic considerations" . this arises when he discusses bargaining and search in the labour market.
we once made a crude micro-model based on this back in univ
Yo' folks,
Not denigrating our past or something.... I am proud of *most* of it too and I am not an agnostic-atheist either. But this frenzied, frothing "Hindu nationalism on the sleeve" which tries to white-wash or justify the indefensible issues of the past is getting quite.... troublesome. I mean, this kinda restricts the big picture doesn't it!
Whats more surreal is the attempt to explain every phenomena in terms of the Purananas and myths. I remember one Knickerwaalah "Doctor" portraying the plan view of the Human Brain as a Shivalinga and Sarpa Worship was actually result of the ancients discovering the structure of the sperm cell. (Forget stupendous claims like "We discovered America long before the Vikings did and Kubera was actually the Indian king of North America" and "Kumari Kandam was Lemuria"). IIRC these links used to pop up once in a while in the HICAF and not-s-long-ago in the Strat Forum. Then there's the more recent Mahabharata War of 5th millenium BC and Imperial Guptas of 300BC.
How is this different from those youtube videos of "Lions say Allah" and "Neil Armstrong discovers the word Allah written on the moon"?
-Anand K
PS: Raju bhai... you ever stumbled on these onlee? :)
Dr. D.S Kothari was in DU (He had two brothers, all DS Kothari, all physics prof), and so is his son LS Kothari.
D.S K was fairly big shot (scientific adviser to PM, I think, etc).
Legend has it, that it was him (or one of the other Kothari) who kept asking P.M Dirac (when he visited DU) "I don;t understand".. and PMD would stop, and then continue.. When he was interrupted by the conference organizer ("Prof. K has a question") Dirac replied "He is just making a statment - '"I don;t understand'" - and never asked a question.:" ..
yup pseudo science should not be peddled as "national resurgence".
this has always been the achilles heel of the dhotiwallah.actually it has a lot to do with Khakhi shorts as well .
man if you truly want to"organise" yourself on the lines of bavarian revolutionaries at least wear the right stuff.
wear a snazzy uniform do better drills ,etc . but no
all that you get is
1. we must compete with the islamists. have 4 children onlee.
2. Lord Shiva wrote the formula for RRW and its there somewhere in the Shiv Puran.
3. we must go back to barter trade system , basically money is the problem
uff , el ridiculoso
>>>>>>>>>>>>
And really, i don't care a frig if the west "recognises" anything . I don't respect people who run around looking for a "stamp" from the west.
However if research in these areas leads to some novel math , why not?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Saurav Bhai,
Here is the problem ... try to estimate these two numbers regarding Medieval Indian Math:
1. Number of Indians who puff their chest and Brag and Gloat about Indian Math and increase H&D by an rder of magnitude == 1,000,000 ++
2. Number of Indians who take up this subject, research it and write PhD theses == most likely ZERO, but less than 10 for sure ...
Now you see the problem?
[a lee high brow example consists of folks who Proudly talk about the Sewage System in Mohen-Jodaro and then dump their own garbage on the street without a second thought]
Hi,
What a massive flowchart.
very true,
but..
there are now math professors who have made it their business to investigate our mathematical heritage .
they won't produce phd's but will definitely provide us with books on the subject and beer reviewed articles.
Secondly one of my old professors ( and he is very well known) has made it his business to look into the Arthashastra .
expect good news there as well.
ginc,
yes, part of that family ... one of the brothers or may be the son but not the main man ...
Hi Mav,
Yup, mother of all flow charts ...
it is good to keep the UberRakshaks busy playing in the sandbox of 1935 - 1955 ...
the present can then be left to the sane ... :)
A lot of the reluctance to work on India's scientific heritage can be attributed to the fact that the left has had a stranglehold over academia and various Rom thap's have gone around denigrating anything that shows ancient India in "scientific light".
of course looney toon dirigism is not the answer. but the left has wrecked most institutions with their dialectical interpretations of Indian history.
The indologists themselves were not all bad . In their own way they did quite a bit for Indian history.
However the marxists since their infamous "education Hamaara" pact with the Kangrass made in the very late sixties have ruined higher education in India.
For the US to start testing full scale nukes something seriously wrong would have had to happen and war was immenient(sp?). Otherwise it would be an international public relations disaster and a domestic political battle. Nobody wants the damn things. Add to that an aging ICBM fleet that nobody wants to replace although there maybe a refurbishment program that is slowly going on.
There is no doubt that the digital age for weapons is in full tilt boogie right now. Anything that can be automated will be automated and then some we never thought of before. But nukes? I don't know. I'm not even sure the new multi-billion dollar nuke pit factory has or will receive funding. If it does, Obama may try to kill it.
If I had to think of near term controversial military developments by the US it would have to be space. They really, really, really, .....really, want the high ground. Really. The X-37 space plane is a super secret, double probation, project right now and it is scheduled for an unmanned orbit launch 1st quarter 2009. It will land in Vandenberg AFB *not* Edwards.
In summary, nukes 0, space 1.
yes but nukes in space ... forever
direct access to space has been the holy grail for the USAf for a long time.
if you real Paul Czysz interview here , u'll know that they have had space capabilities for a long time
http://www.americanantigravity.com/articles/573/1/Paul-Czysz-Interview/Page1.html
I think the most economical thing in the short run is to convert the ICBMs into space launch vehicles to replace any mission critical payloads. That is the reverse of Hon. Webmaster/Sokolski's logic i.e. convert space launch vehicles into ICBMs ... but given the amount of crap in LEO, the chance that you lose a KH/Metrology-bird to some random paint chip is high. It doesn't hurt to have an ICBM reconfigured to fly in a replacement with low lead time.
Weaponising space is a bad idea.
It is exactly the sort of dangerous nonsense that people like the Pakistanis will be tempted to try in search of an assymetric advantage.
All it takes is a Badr B to detonate in LEO. The mess made would cost trillions to fix.
DF nuke thread is strangely quiet..Are people exhausted.. may be big meeting going on in jigra ..
See some cartoons and whah whahs ...
And a strange algebra problem..
May be a chance for DisHonWebmaster to show off that he knows basic math?
.. Or they are simply busy counting atoms...
We need report from Dar-e-pokji..
ginc,
the acion has moved to the Great Game thread ...
what you see unfolding is conversion of Isharaas to some arcane stuff from 60-70 years ago ...
they will thrash it with diligence, whine and blame etc ...
and then the Q will remain about what the relevance is to India in 2008 ...
the answer is simple ...
yes you guessed it!
the connecting thread from 1935 to 2008 is the Mega Isharaa of TaxonomyMaster ...
yup, its them Elites! ... LOL
[run and hide ... the EliteMonster is out to get ya!]
Alok:
Wow! So the action was there...
I have to confess ... could not make much out of it (don't have attention span to even read one whole post...
I think it will be safe, there.. no sane man will go to that thread..
hmm.. don't know what to make out of:
Acharya:
The information was hidden because it was deliberately done so.
LOL!
GinC said...
hmm.. don't know what to make out of:
Acharya:
The information was hidden because it was deliberately done so.
LOL!
GinC,
You need to spend more time on DF to understand these terse comments.
The learned taxonomist is differenciating from this:
The information was hidden because there was a deliberate attempt to look for it in other places
Don't you see?:-)
Bemused:
Thanks! Now when you say it.. it is obvious....:)
There is a great conshpirajy and we Indians are smack right in the center of it all. My chest swells with pride and resolve and I humbly bow my head, weighed with the extraordinary responsibility placed on it. I swear on the blood-red soil that I shall fight the enemies to my last keystroke.... before I succumb to the embrace of Capral's Tunnel.
But my fellow Deshpremion, there is no price I ask for this service. And there is no price for awesomeness....and attractiveness.
Hineni, mah Lawd, Hineni!
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I think ICBMs lack the injection velocity for most types of orbits.
The Russkis did convert a few SLBMs for sat capability . But I don't know how successful that launch really was.
Al Badr states like the Pukes will in all probability acquire ASAT capabilities . typically they would launch a pellet cloud in the vicinity of a LEO satellite using SRBMs/MRBMs. Basically poor man's ASAT.
As an aside the max altitude that a BM can reach with a certain payload is 'generally' half of its range for that payload.
it is not a question of 'if or when' as far as space weaponisation is concerned. the process has been going on for a long time. the two superpowers over the years had several systems in space . right from the R-36 conversion Fractional Orbital Bombardment system to various killer satellites.
In an age of IADS guarded by triple digit SAMs space weaponisation is inevitable.Direct access to space counts when your enemy possesses credible ASAT capability.
Not only can you attack usinga Trans Atmospheric Vehicle ( TAV) but also use it to inject a replacement satellite or two , not to mention recon capabilities.
We must ensure that we are on the right side of the fence when the new Space NPT comes into force.
of course we remain committed to opposing the weaponisation of space just like we remain committed to universal disarmament.
>>>
PS: Raju bhai... you ever stumbled on these onlee? :)
>>>
No, but I read everything with an open mind. I am a tremendous believer in the human narrative.
there was a link between Mayans/meso-americans and Ancient India which was posted on BR. It was actually worthy of a good study and would have opened greater insight into Southern America. But Rakesh mon didn't find any merit. As they say art for some is fart for others.
Hi Ducking For Cover,
I seem to recall that the US recycled a few Atlas ICBMs as SLVs. That was where I got the idea from. I did not realise that there were technical limitations on other ICBM models. My detailed knowledge of ICBM propulsion systems is poor.
Actually the "Al Badr ASAT" is as good a reason to develop boost phase intercept type capabilities as this "rogue NoKo nuke missile" saga being parroted out by the US media.
Protecting space based communication, surveillance and metsats from disruptions by terrorists is atleast as important from a global security perspective as deterring a "rogue state" from launching an ICBM at the US. I may be the ultimate Indian frog in an Indian well who does not see beyond the "Babooze" nose - but even I can think globally - see!
I think the main thrust of the argument against space based weapons is the technical difficulty and cost associated with servicing them. I grant you that with the rise in satellite usage, the reliability levels of this sort of thing are rising but the risks still remain.
I mean who has not seen those American cartoons? where the US puts some godawful cannon in space to shoot "roushians" or "yellow rats" or "evil people" and then a rogue programmer in Russia hacks the system and for a small fee from some international terrorist group uses the weapon to threaten the US with destruction? and then there is the prospect of a software glitch getting the weapon to point the wrong way so when vapourising pyongyang - you accidentally vapourise some city in the US etc...
This may seem like comic relief or worse a really bad script for a Steven Segal movie but the underlying truth remains -imo- putting a weapon in space carries too many risks.
(now I follow the current trend on the forum)
And as you know - Enqyoob would oppose the idea because I am sure he knows what is really going on at Area 51.
I have only see the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still" - from that movie I know that the Aliens don't like the idea and will simply send giant walkers to come and deal with the "human infestation".
BTW - you do realise - whoever remains alive after the Alien assault (eg. Tom Cruise, Dakota Fanning etc...) will be wiped out by pissed of reptilians who probably don't want the human race around in the first place. After all humans keep disturbing the centuries long hibernation pattern of the reptilians by conducting periodic underground nuclear tests. Having recently seen several rounds of internet discussions with these reptilians - I get the distinct feeling they think of us in the same way as we think of amoebas.
(end: joke).
Entering Mulder Mode:
Aliens are way smarter...they can get us to kill each other off. They don't even need a mean robot who can get mollified by "Klaatu Barata Nikto" keywords!
There was this interesting short film called "The Screwfly Solution" where (*spoiler alert*) aliens release a chemical where attraction to female gender/sexual urges is stepped up into murderous impulse. Soon all fair wimmen are killed off by husbands and lovers... later on the men kill off the male children/adolescents/adults whom they (gasp)substitute for the wimmen.
The ones that were left were picked off one by one easily. Somewhat disturbing movie you know..... based on an award winning short story apparently. The irony in this story is that this was the same technique a scientist character was trying to do w.r.t Screwflies.
-Anand K
Okay - Morning coffee and browsing the DF nuclear thread ...
Phillp has rant ...
DisHon Webmasterji - 4 significant figures are being questioned ..
The algebra problem is gone - (It is in Nukkad thread ... looking at it does look easy enough) but
I bet none of the those anti-deal experts can do that math problem . In fact I challenge all the webmaster's of DF..They can talk all expert sounding mumbo jumbo, but no one can do a simple math problem...
>>> no one can do a simple math problem...
Olaf Caero had planned this exact outcome ... or, was it Cawthorne?
got to read the book to find out ...
Again - obsessing over a sound bite.
L. K. Krishnan spoke about a "paradigm shift" in nuclear energy generation in India.
He also pointed out that critics had raised questions about safety if India operated such a large number of reactors. The critics had argued that safety concerns were a significant reason not to proceed with the deal.
It seems BR doesn't read anything beyond the headlines if it even remotely looks like it supports the deal.
On the other hand non-sequitors about "100 year fuel guarentees" etc... are welcome.
>>>Olaf Caero had planned this exact outcome ... or, was it Cawthorne?
Bet, they might be doing exactly the same.
Meanwhile, I think IsharaMaster did give a Ishara about binomial expansion etc...
Also Didn't he talk about Cauchy's
contour integrals and sniffing residues around the poles to easily understand the deal .. funny thing is, if he normalized the expression and applied cauchy schwartz inequality he would see how easy the whole problem is..:)
Mav
>>>Again - obsessing over a sound bite.
>>>
Yes. AmberG has a message there too.
Hi,
Yes, I just noticed it.
I think some folks on BR have developed an allergic reaction to any thought that supports the deal.
They have invested large amounts of energy into closing their own minds.
Though I remain curious as to how these very same people are going to turn 180 and support the deal if the BJP comes to power, I think this is impossible.
Given their extreme thinking - I feel these people will turn on Advani too.
nah ... they are experts at 180 ... AK went from Hero to Zero overnight ... the deal can go from Zero to Hero also if signed by Advani-jee ...
by the way, the Great Game thread is an excellent idea ... it is sort of like Isharaa-Nukkad ...
they can conspiracy themselves silly in there ... :)
>>>by the way, the Great Game thread is an excellent idea ... it is sort of like Isharaa-Nukkad ...
they can conspiracy themselves silly in there ... :)
>>>
To me, it sounded like free associating talk as if people are on spacoline drug. (as in Issac Asimov story - On Marsport Without Hilda)
the main issue with satellites remains the amount of fuel they may have on board for maneuvering. this is also one of the key constraints facing most types of weapons "stationed" in space .
the other problem with having dedicated sats is that their orbits are way too predictable and with time will become sitting ducks for even Al Badr . that is why you need more flexible assets like TAVs/RLVs etc.
the hypersonic mullah J^3 who has now undergone a "dharm parivartan" has views similar to mine in a lot of areas. with him it is a simple matter of miscommunication because my knowledge of his tongue is indifferent at best . I have done only a few introductory courses after all. (in LMU via correspondence)
Btw: If you have not read it, here is brief summary in wiki about Marsport without Hilda story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_in_Marsport_Without_Hilda
The actual conversation in the story could have been lifter straight from Acharyaji etc.. posts :)
Dear Alok N,
Yes, I see what you are saying.
I don't know if there is a safe sand lot for these people anymore.
Per my understanding, the "Great Game" is simply a geopolitical equation that requires participants to attempt to frustrate each others' access to key trade routes.
As far as I know - the associated human costs are not factored into the equation. Essentially, one plays the game until one is completely drained of human resources.
It can be argued that versions of the "Great Game" have been played in ancient times. We all recall Chanakya's attempts to persuade Mahapadmananda of the need to create a viable buffer in the North West against Alexander's march. And none of us can forget how Shah Abbas II and Jehangir tussled over control of Kandahar. For the greater part of Muslim Rule in India, the title of Arsalan Shah (King of the Border) was awarded to anyone who used his skills to dominate the Sarhad.
The only flaw in the "Great Game" is the lack of human cost calculations. If this aspect is emphasized, any "great game" can be rendered defunct.
I fail to see the point of making all these complicated references to the Spykman-Macinder version of the "Great Game".
I don't see what is gained by painting the ISI out to be singularly an instrument of Western policy in the region.
I just can't see what the relevant information to the present day is here.
The general principles of the "Great Game" are well known and the present nuances i.e. narconomics and energy politics is well known also.
Discussing all this old stuff only serves to distract unless there is some consistent ethnographic links between the present players and the players of old. The consistency of the links is highly debatable.
In the absence of that - the only thing that is achieved by this discussion is a half-baked sensitisation to the idea of the "Great Game" and an unquestioning desire to participate - or more correctly - volunteer India to "play" it. No seriously - if you make it look that fucking cool - why won't young Indians want to play it too?
Everyone and their grandmothers have been urging GoI to take it up a notch in Afghanistan in response to the Kabul bombing, i.e. "play" the "Great Game"... however I ask you... what is wrong with going the other way? - i.e. emphasising the human cost aspect of things using softpower.
On account of the flaw in the game - successfully highlighting the human cost aspect would cause the game to end.
I mean seriously - what are thousands of Afghans, Pakistanis and Americans dying in the mountains for? - a few measly tons of Heroin? a few million barrels of Oil?
Is that worth the sacrifice of so many lives?
What if we simply refuse to play the "Game"?
Is that a possibility that the forum debate is willing to entertain?
frankly , there is an increasing number of people who don't believe in any game-shame anymore. In fact they contest the viability of the nation state itself . Most of these blokes are the more privileged people in the world today and harp on "internationalism" the same way that the Book of Marx does.
It is basically the point Alok_N alluded to earlier during the 'math issue'. Very few people want to sacrifice anything "for the nation" anymore . yeah supporting a cricket team with a flag is fine but when it comes to actually doing anything most would look at the bottomline , their own bottomline.
The more "honest" ones simply contest the concept of nationhood itself. In today's world , its every man for himself and "rich" governments will find it increasingly difficult to send people for "combat".
we will of course continue to send poor blighters who have joined the paramilitaries to their deaths anyway.
I mean look at this whole naxal war . Basically the fighting on both sides Govt and naxal has been outsourced to the poor. the CRPF is full of recruits from Bihar looking for an escape from their "state" and the same goes for the Naxals.
Of course DF will discuss the great came "with cold logic" and arrive at an optimal solution trough the use of innovative jpeg technology.
>>>
What if we simply refuse to play the "Game"?
>>>
Sorry Mav - According to DF you have no choice?
Is one going to be sensible or Listen to Acharyaji?
????
Dear Ginc,
That is an interesting choice you are offering me.
If I listen to the forum people - then I am forced to play a game which is heavily tilted against me.
We can't make investments on the scale that the Americans and Pakistanis have made there.
We don't need more safed maal - we make the absolute best stuff is domestically made and legally too!
And we can get ONG from Iran.
We can't ship any more arms and ammo or assasins to Afghanistan - the Afghans have more than enough of all of those things.
If anything starts up - the Pakistanis slip in their regulars by the truckload and butcher our friends and allies.
Or the Americans will bomb them to crap. Recall Taloqan in 1997-8 and the 2002 "airshows" at Khwaja Bahauddin.
If we station more of our troops there, we will rely on Pakistan or Iran to give us access and we will probably have to pay Gen. Hamid Gul's trucking company to move supplies to our troops.
So I ask you - what is in this for me?
Why should I get into a "game" that only results in more of my precious friends in Afghanistan getting killed?
What trade profit or security gain will I achieve by watching my friends in Afghanistan die?
Is it only me who thinks this "Great Game" is very stupid?
The only thing from my perspective is making sure our friend in Afghanistan are not killed or marginalised.
For me that is the only thing - and that is not part of the Great Game calculation.
In that "cold logic" of the game - there are no friends and no enemies. You simply kill with a will and hope that the person standing next to you doesn't do the same.
Maybe Raju can shed some light on how the plate tectonics and anomalies in flow in the mantle are responsible for strange electromagnetic fields that disrupt human rationality in place like Afghanistan and Bosnia.
Incidentally in the great Shia narrative, Hindustan is the second home - a place of refuge - a place of safety. If the Afghans feel the same way - I could not be happier.
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Any greater involvement in Afghanistan will be driven primarily by a need to access energy resources from central asia.
However I must say , that if indeed we want our guys to spill blood there we must be totally clearly about how our country is to go forward.
Our ever increasing energy demand is being primarily driven by the needs of the affluent.
So in a way when we deploy more poor blighters to Afghanistan we need to know whether the "rich and prosperous communities" in this country do indeed have a stake in its future or are they "internationalists" as well.
\
frankly speaking no one should be made to spill their guts out just so that fat cats in the metropolitan cities can keep guzzling oil and flaunting their ill gotten wealth.
AoA - Alok_n said a while ago:
>>>LOL
ROFLMAO
LOL
if I had designed for and prayed to all the Djinns in the world, I could not have come up with a better scenario on DF ...
UberMeltDown onlee ...
>>>
Just when you thought, one can not possibly show himself to a complete idiot, DisHonMasterji is doing just that...
Not just showing.. proving it behind any shadow of doubt!
A "logic nude" shouting everyone to see his admin-hat!
Let me quote it here: this is just too precious: And before someone deletes it .. let it go here...
Mav could not find a better example in support of his thesis
(There are too many LOL's there...
>>>>>>>> Arun_S starts >>>>
Amber G. wrote:
Hi Arun_S.. Any comments on my query (Sorry if I missed your response).
Basically:
1. How did you get 4 significant figures (while simply multiplying numbers of less precession) .. As it was mention before, and I am sure you will agree, that in scientific world that kind of calculation is laughable.
2. What is the relevance for 100 years for fuel supply (I can understand, if that number is taken for, say, civil engineering for construction of a reactor etc)? No one, IMO, would make a model where, one is using current technology reactors with current type of fuel being used in 100 years from now. (Other fuel plants (even Narayanan's Gobar Gas plant :) no one IMO would consider a 100 years fuel supply in their equation?
Thanks in advance.
(I ask because, if I remember correctly, you were still "standing by" those numbers. - correct me if I am wrong or if you have put some revised figures..)
Here are the figures for your quick reference: (4 significant figures are in bold)
Quote:
And for 50GWe the lifetime fuel requirement is equivalent to mining 1.513 million tonnes of Natural Uranium and enriching it to medium enrichment. At current price of Uranium @ $68/Lb that is $226.5 Billion cost[
IMV the query on its own was not worth my time in answering, but since you asked again let me state the following:
1.) I am only a lay observer and for lay discussion on cost perhaps 2 digit precision will be enough to convey the point.
2.) Pls refer to the detailed calculation I posted earlier in previous thread.
3.) The basic starting parameter numbers are 4 digit precision or better in my spreadsheet, but because not all BRFites don't have meticulous scientists temper that you subscribe to, and for easy reading of common reader I had not provided 4 precision numbers for initial source parameters. I transcribed important parameters & results from the spreadsheet for that post, choosing to state at higher precision parameters that are important, or lower precision for ease of reading .
4.) There was also a naughty factor to tease and encourage scientific precision minded people to do their own research to get to full 4 digit precision and prove the assertion of lay posters like me wrong on the 4th digit error. In fact I would love to be proven wrong on a single digit error on the 4 digit precision. I encourage and cajole all BRFites to do little more reading and research on the subject, that knowledge IMHO will support right decision for Bharat.
I wish my scientific precision driven friends good luck on 4 digit precision data hunting research, to prove wrong the 1.513 million tonnes figure.
That is my first & final response for what it may be worth on 4 digit precision question; this is unfortunately low in my priority for further discussion.
So he basically didn't pay attention to the details, his "spreadsheet" did it for him because of the default setting on the precision.
Not entirely surprising.
I notice he has started claiming that he began work on reactor issues "1 year ago".
What a curious coincidence!
At the exact same time that he was working on learning all the details of building a hydrogen bomb from the internet, he was simultaneously learning everything about the economics of reactors in India.
lmao! and he just ignored the more important "what is the relevance for 100 years for fuel supply?" question
and i wonder if he is going to apologise to kanson for his crass remarks against him.
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This comment has been removed by the author.
Alok boss - You were right, some body did get confirmation to see your calculations...
HonWenMaster>>>
There was also a naughty factor to tease and encourage scientific precision minded people to do their own research to get to full 4 digit precision and prove the assertion of lay posters like me wrong on the 4th digit error. ....
>>>>
LOL ....
Does this worthy really tink what one can get from few clicks on wiki "research"?
Just when you think, one can't get any clownier ... the clown becomes more clownier ...
could you bust this guy's bubble... that things like U235 abundance and energy produced by 1 gm U235 fisson is not really a serious reserach..
ginc,
in general, any problem for which the solution has already been found and established is not research ...
as for this GigaKhel, I am really curious about how seriously are folks taking it ...
if the crap from 1935 is influencing India's thinking today, it is all over ...
ABV already said that one can't choose one's neighbors ... is there more to the GigaKhel than that one terse comment?
btw what was the result of that poll in DF wrt pro/against nuclear deal?
Anyone remembers what was the final outcome? I am missing that poll.. was that poll banned or something?
alok
wrt to dishon. webmasterji - still can't believe how one can be so clueless..he is multiplying some arbitrary numbers and not getting it even when it is shown to him clearly ...
As they say ..
"you can read a post to webmaster but can't make him think"
ginc,
just before the talaa was put on the poll, it had crossed 50% in favor of deal ... there were some dal-badlus, just like the neta-jees in Lok Sabha are doing right now ...
regarding accuracy, Amber G. has a simple but very valid point ...
if I have two quatities x and y that know with the precision, x = 2.0 and y =1.001, the product is known to precision, xy = 2 not, xy = 2.002 ...
WebMaster-jee should just accept this and move on ...
dang, I meant to say xy = 2.0 above ...
Thanks for the poll update (I don't know how I missed it)
>>>WebMaster-jee should just accept this and move on ...
Don't underestimate our Webmasterji- He will find a way to show some more surprises ...:)
Meanwhile parmu & sugrva looks like Admin's drone probes.. Kan...has a polite message too.. JohnSnow as usual is being irrelevant in his posts...
AoA, do we have the mijjile defense for SLBM-e-Kanson? that attack was straang. I see a lot of beace after that ekjbloshun. Will there pe an attack-e-counter or a humpling buplic apologie? let us do a cross-e-fingers.
everybody from the middle east to S east asia is looking at new plants. while it is true that the majority of current construction is going on in India and China , the next wave of nuke plants is going to begin soon.
even countries like sweden and germany who had legislation requiring that nuke power be phased out have put their plans on hold.
there are over 30 reactors under construction worldwide in various stages and there are firm plans for another 90.
Start Operation* REACTOR TYPE MWe (net)
2008 India, NPCIL Rawatbhata 5 PHWR 202
2008 India, NPCIL Kaiga 4 PHWR 202
2008 India, NPCIL Kudankulam 1 PWR 950
2008 Iran, AEOI Bushehr 1 PWR 950
2009 India, NPCIL Rawatbhata 6 PHWR 202
2009 Canada, Bruce Power Bruce A1 PHWR 769
2009 Russia, Rosenergoatom Volgodonsk 2 PWR 950
2009 Japan, Hokkaido Tomari 3 PWR 912
2009 China, Taipower Lungmen 1 ABWR 1300
2009 India, NPCIL Kudankalam 2 PWR 950
2010 Canada, Bruce Power Bruce A2 PHWR 769
2010 Korea, KHNP Shin Kori 1 PWR 1000
2010 India, NPCIL Kalpakkam FBR 470
2010 China, CGNPC Lingao 3 PWR 1080
2010 China, Taipower Lungmen 2 ABWR 1300
2010 Argentina, CNEA Atucha 2 PHWR 692
2010 Russia, Rosenergoatom Severodvinsk PWR x 2 70
2011 Finland, TVO Olkilouto 3 PWR 1600
2011 Russia, Rosenergoatom Kalinin 4 PWR 950
2011 Korea, KHNP Shin Kori 2 PWR 1000
2011 Korea, KHNP Shin Wolsong 1 PWR 1000
2011 China, CNNC Qinshan 6 PWR 650
2011 China, CGNPC Lingao 4 PWR 1080
2011 Pakistan, PAEC Chashma 2 PWR 300
2011 Russia, Rosenergoatom Kursk 5 RBMK 1000
2012 China, CNNC Qinshan 7 PWR 650
2012 Korea, KHNP Shin Wolsong 2 PWR 1000
2012 France, EdF Flamanville 3 PWR 1630
2012 Russia, Rosenergoatom Beloyarsk 4 FBR 750
2012 Japan, Chugoku Shimane 3 PWR 1375
2012 Russia, Rosenergoatom Novovoronezh 6 PWR 1070
2012 Slovakia, SE Mochovce 3 PWR 440
2012 China, CGNPC Hongyanhe 1 PWR 1080
2012 China, CGNPC Ningde 1 PWR 1080
2013 China, CNNC Sanmen 1 PWR 1100
2013 China, CGNPC Ningde 2 PWR 1080
2013 Russia, Rosenergoatom Leningrad 5 PWR 1070
2013 Russia, Rosenergoatom Novovoronezh 7 PWR 1070
2013 Korea, KHNP Shin Kori 3 PWR 1350
2013 China, CGNPC Hongyanhe 2 PWR 1080
2013 China, CGNPC Yangjiang 1 PWR 1080
2013 Japan, EPDC/J Power Ohma ABWR 1350
2013 Japan, Tepco Fukishima I-6 ABWR 1350
2013 Slovakia, SE Mochovce 4 PWR 440
2014 China , CNNC Sanmen 2 PWR 1100
2014 China , CPI Haiyang 1 PWR 1100
2014 China , CGNPC Ningde 3 PWR 1080
2014 China , CGNPC Yangjiang 2 PWR 1080
2014 China , CGNPC Hongyanhe 3 PWR 1080
2014 Korea, KHNP Shin-Kori 4 PWR 1350
2014 Romania, SNN Cernavoda 3 PHWR 655
2014 Bulgaria, NEK Belene 1 PWR 1000
2014 Russia , Rosenergoatom Leningrad 6 PWR 1200
2014 Russia , Rosenergoatom Volgodonsk 3 PWR 1200
2014 Japan , Tepco Fukishima I-7 ABWR 1080
2014 Japan , Tepco Higashidori 1 ABWR 1080
http://world-nuclear.org/info/inf17.html
Hi Saurabh,
very interesting data ...
Looks like China will have ~18 GW of brand new nuke power in 6 years ...
I think that's the end of the game for India ...
China will hog the U market by then ... when (IF) India limps in in 2020 with a few of its own reactors, it will just pay high premium and generally be ignored ...
Karat-e-Chop-jee's Bailgadi Brigade has already won ... whether this deal gets signed or not ...
we will need GigaBoom to keep the electricity hungry junta from attacking Nai Dilli ...
I don't understand this "libel" stuff.
I don't understand how anything Ldev said was "libel" and I don't understand why someone else can't make a claim of libel on behalf of another. As far as I understand, the ability to make a claim of libel on someone's behalf is the basis of all the legal procedures against defamation - I mean that is why a lawyer can represent your case right?
So if Hon. Webmaster can claim to represent the voice of everyone from the Strategic Forces Command to people inside the DAE opposed to the deal --- why can't Kanson say that he finds the Hon. Webmaster's words against Dr. Kakodkar "libel" and demand an apology?
Or does the Hon. Webmaster enjoy some kind of special administrative privilege that entitles him to immunity from such charges?
I also don't understand how the "opinion" defence will work in this particular case since neither the wording nor the manner in which the communication was made left any doubts in anyone's mind about Hon. Webmaster's intention to impeach Dr. Kakodkar's professional reputation.
The Hon. Webmaster was repeatedly warned by many other posters on the thread that he should refrain from making statements with his peculiar editorial commentary when he was talking about the professional aspects of peoples' conduct as his abrasive comments might be misinterpreted.
Despite these suggestions - the Hon. Webmaster proceeded with verbal assaults on the DAE leadership.
I do not think that any doubt remains of Hon. Webmaster's intentions to use his position on the website to impeach the DAE leadership and to defame the organisation as a whole. The result is an environment on the forum where Pakistani-style hostility towards civilian authority figure in India is fostered.
The moderation failure mode alluded to earlier in my posts here persists. There is no mechanism inside BR to control a "rogue" webmaster.
Each day that this mess continues, each minute that Kanson's charges go unanswered by the Hon. Webmaster himself - I feel the credibility of the entire moderation team suffers.
This comment has been removed by the author.
yup, libel is a one way street on DF ...
that is why some two-bit-Phillip can refer to the Pradhan Mantri of India as "Snake-oil Singh" with impunity ...
and, probably the best post of the page was wiped clean by GrandMaster JPegJingo-jee (J^3 trumps N^3) ...
somewhere, somehow, good sense in DF was "rounded off" in favor of 4-digit precision elsewhere ... :)
>>>>Dar-e-pok said...
AoA, do we have the mijjile defense for SLBM-e-Kanson? that attack was straang. I see a lot of beace after that ekjbloshun. Will there pe an attack-e-counter or a humpling buplic apologie? let us do a cross-e-fingers.
>>>
Dar-e-pokji - what's happening there? Looks like Kanson's post is GONE...
Rahulji - which once said here that he can't read or write, claim that he was just being "polite" to resolve that "oviously serious" libel part from Ldev.. while "two bit" Philip goes on ranting ...
Non-linear curve indeed, looks like l(n x) near the origin .. that is, DF's leadership tending to -infinity ...
>>> that is why some two-bit-Phillip can refer to the Pradhan Mantri of India as "Snake-oil Singh" with impunity ...
>>>
If I am not mistaken Philip is "Philip Fowler" one of the original administrators of BR.
Hi,
Another thing I can't understand.
If the NYT is going to blow the cover on Israel's intention to attack Iran's nuclear capability - I fail to see how such an attack could be successful.
At the very least - after seeing such an article in the NYT - the Iranian leadership will carefully position itself to deflect the impact of such an attack or failing that inflict punitive retaliation on Israel.
I wonder if the NYT itself even believes that part about "some Iranians" rejoicing in the prospect that the Israeli attacks are "somewhat successful" at slowing down the Iranian nuclear program. One also wonders exactly how many Israeli lives would the NYT editorial board be comfortable trading in Hezbollah and Hamas attritive warfare for a Israeli attack on Iran that is "somewhat successful" at achieving the loftily stated aims.
As a lay observer, I would be inclined to think that all Iranians would react negatively to outsiders bombing their lands and attempting to kill their scientists.
Perhaps the NYT has sources of information I don't but I recall that the NYT had probably shared an assessment doing rounds in D.C. circa 2002 that all Iraqis would rise up to greet American troops as liberators and that post Saddam Iraq would be a place wher peace and joy would reign.
When I read a piece like that - I see little more than an NYT version of CRS's handwringing "we are doomed" commentary.
Perhaps it is an attraction for the novel assertive style of handwringing and its contrast with with the "we are doomed" style that draws CRS nearer to the NYT.
Though as far as "White Man"-Rothschild-SpaceAlien-Illuminati conspiracies goes - I would think the NYT would be an agency for all of those forces.
BTW - Has anyone archived N^3 comment, or Kansan's comment which was removed from DF.. if so can one post it here. I did not see N^3 message..
Raju,
aah ... ex-banner-jee ... that explains it ...
I was just playing on "bit-flip" to get up to "2-bit-phillip" ...
:)
Gincuddin said "Dar-e-pokji - what's happening there? Looks like Kanson's post is GONE..."
I think you were right. Qanoon-E-Marshal haj peen abblied bithout deklar-e-shun. Afterall the age-old dephense "tsij ij a brivate phorum and we can do aj we wish" alwayj works. Time to ishtart reading/contriputing to other phorums ij coming closer.
Ah, so after Iran, it is India turn. It is so ridiculous the crap they allow in there that it isn't even worth wasting one's time typing a detailed response stating difference between India and Iran, Ahmedinijad and Advani..
Someone who wants to be a 'good American' is always seen fear mongering when it comes to Indian interests. Will they have Indian or American interests in mind, in the even that the two nation's interests do not coincide (as they are doing now)?
So N^3's post is a flame bait, but fear mongering is A-OK!!
Snake-oil Singh is A-OK!
Constable is A-OK!
I wonder if they'd allow me to use expletives like MC, BC when I refer to politicians I don't like. After all they are not forum members so it should be A-OK!
Without contravening "attorney-client privilege".... (I like that phrase)..... I think the admin team is torn in various directions. You have the anti-dealers... no need to clarify them, identify well known, because of whose support all kinds of folks are mouthing, with insults flying galore. Then you have the admins "known to be caught in the middle", who are desperately trying to keep the superstructure together... and then you have the silent majority of admins/webmasters etc. whose opinion is not known. But clearly this vast majority believe in "solidarity" with their co admins (both current and ex, hence the leeway to "Constable Philip" and they are probably also hoping that this divise nuclear issue will soon be history ... one way and another and "peace and harmony" will reign again..
So I dont think there is any possibility of the kind of overhaul which Maverick hopes for...
actually there is tremendous anger against MMS. It cannot be measured because BRF allows for only so much "gaali-galoch". The turning point was the Ashok Mitra's book Prattler's Rattle wherein he mentioned MMS's FM origins from WB loan arm-twisting to highest office.
Could be true for all we care !
But .. But .. lately I have come to believe that MMS is not a strong enough character from any angle to push the deal. This deal is being pushed by those higher up than him who are just pulling his strings.
And thus the accusations of "snake-oil Singh" can well be avoided, he is not the dude who will push the most-divisive deal in Indian history forward. SoniaG pulling strings is evident. She is too quiet and only too guilty.
but again wonder on SoniaG's motivations .. what could compel a lady who saw Bofor's fallout on her family firsthand fall hook, line and sinker for such a deal.
Congress seems to be playing an end game. Who was it that said that whoever wins the next General Elections shall rule India for a long time. Probably it was Acharyaji. Probably much like the Shiela govt in Delhi, a confluence of foreign investment and international features shall bless the next Govt with great longevity.
the fight here is on to build a war chest for that.
Nothing else can explain such desperation.
Raju,
Sometimes you must consider Occam's razor. What if MMS truly believes that this deal is in India's interests and what if SoniaG has decided to support this principled stand of his?
ldev,
I am aware of that aspect of things.
Unfortunately - the more you ignore things - the harder it becomes to fix them in the future.
The path to restoring the credibility of the moderation team lies in having the old mods resign and hand over charge to the new mods who will enjoy a fixed appointment term.
Now this can all be done now - while the site still has some credibility left - or we can sit around and wait for Hon. Webmaster and friends and their abrasive style completely trashes the place.
I hope they make the right choice.
If not... well then it is not like I didn't warn them.
Dear Raju,
I believe you are referring to "A Prattler's Tale", by Dr. Ashok Mitra. The "rattle" was MJA's piece on it.
I haven't read the book but I did read MJA's piece.
I believe MJA also points out that Dr. Mitra's mentors were Pramod Dasgupta and Jyoti Basu and Mme. Indira Gandhi and that he served as the PM's Economic Advisor at a time when Indo-Soviet ties were... shall we say... at their peak? This would be the same period in which some say that leftist influence on economic policies in India was at its greatest? This would also happen to be the time when it is alleged by some that no-bid contracts were being handed out Soviet companies by GoI?
Curious that he (of all people) should recall - of all things - the events of 1991 as an “ignominious surrender” and then project the economic trajectory of the country post 1992 as a continuing "high noon of that state of affairs".
Curious then that he should become disillusioned with "an old friend" MMS after the latter deviated from the economics of old?
If we are to treat MMS with suspicion on account of a percieved linkage to the World Bank and the US.
Wouldn't we be wrong to spare the humble commentators similar privileges of their association?
LDEV, I'm asking this here since it would be easier to see for you.
please go thru' my post in the new nuke thread and tell me if you have a problem with my earlier posts.
regarding name calling of anyone from public figures to members, I don't remember a single such incident that I have ignored, not one. I've been most active in this regard. In fact, ALL active mods come down hard on abusive posts when they see one.
The cases of name calling that you feel have been let to stay were either
a) before my time as a mod and I'm not responsible or accountable for those
or
b) not reported and hence did not come to admin notice.
regards,
Rahul.
btw, is your handle 'L' dev or 'I' dev ?? I've always been a little confused regarding that !!
p.s.(not directed at ldev)
I won't respond to any name calling/abusive posts here from anybody. So, conserve your energy or waste it, your call !!
On the topic of the 'Great Game', I feel that it is just another way of describing geopolitics. Central-asian falls at the intersection of various cultures/countries, and thus provides a perfect foil for geopolitics. The region has influenced, or has been influenced by, colonialism, the cold war and now terrorism/narco-terrorism. If you cut through the conspiracy theories and other crap that is being discussed, we can simplify the 'Great Game' as just geopolitics, and take it from there.
India is not in a position to participate in this 'Great Game' at a high level, as Mav pointed out. We have been Pak-centric in our policy till recently, and have just now moved towards engaging China. Some people on BR don't tend to realize that it takes time and a real need for a country to move up the chain in such things as the 'Great Game'. And if one looks at conspiracies under every rock, then a practical outlook becomes very difficult.
Rahul,
I think that you were caught in the cross-fire in the "bjp issue" because of your admin responsibilites, and although I have not followed your posting history on the forum closely, I believe that you are even handed. So no issues.
But I have to agree with Maverick that this nuclear debate has exposed certain systemic fault lines in the admin process. Whether the damage to the forum's credibility is temporary or permanent is something I do not know. That is for you to decide and to debate among your co-admins and to take corrective actions if necessary now that you are aware of these systemic fault lines.
Hi,
We do not have the resources to play this "Great Game" and frankly, I don't see the point of playing a game where someone else has already made all the rules.
It is too even a fight and it simply goes against my chankian blood to step into a fight that isn't fixed from the start.
mulla log
the webjite ij on the decline for kafi time se. chaddi walas and gaddi walas have complete control ober the webjite and wont chodo (thatj chodo aj in leave not anything elje) till they become old and die. hobefully new jirga memberj should rejcue the old spirit by sending old jirga to retirement or ajking them to take a hike or a vacajun
If the story by Ashoke Mitra was untrue or completely without merit, MMS would have sued the pants off Mitra by now.
Ofcourse he is silent, preferring people to come up with their own justifications as per their own allegiances and labeling the accusers as 'conspiracy theorists'.
Silence can hide a lot and speak a lot. As far as I have seen MMS, he will not be silent if he has an iota of truth to defend. In fact he just isn't the go-getter type at all. His actions are that of a classic order taker and justifier for his master's thoughts and actions.
SoniaG is the one who is very quiet, preferring the media to spread her case that it is MMS who is doing all the heavy-lifting for the deal especially since his association with World Bank etc have been proven.
MMS and MK Narayanan, both have american connections with their children as American citizens. So they can be the fall-guys for the Sonia scheme.
>>>
Raju,
Sometimes you must consider Occam's razor. What if MMS truly believes that this deal is in India's interests and what if SoniaG has decided to support this principled stand of his?
>>>
there is no such thing as 'India's Interests' in Indian politics anymore.
Someone like Laloo or AK Antony might be able to pull off such a stunt. But that's about it.
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>>>
Hi,
We do not have the resources to play this "Great Game" and frankly, I don't see the point of playing a game where someone else has already made all the rules.
It is too even a fight and it simply goes against my chankian blood to step into a fight that isn't fixed from the start.
>>>
Sunil,
the more I see people quoting
"Chankya" (paki style pron'ciation)the more I am convinced that this is an excuse for inaction and doing nothing.
Most people also find it difficult to digest that India has nothing to lose today if it plays the great game, our access to energy will be severely skewed and screwed by the western oligarchs in the coming years. Crouds of agitated Indians will stand at the gates of New Delhi baying for blood, esp politicians blood, just look at the patterns of agitation across the country, no nation with a productive or satisfied population will engage in such mindless demonstrations such as in Dabwali, Dausa etc. Just light a matchstick now it will spread across entire country .. heck even I could do it. If we do not play the great game now we are going to be squeezed in the long term anyways.
Turn the tables on the west before they turn the tables on us.
Our military strength doesn't matter anymore, if our past leaders did not endow us with greater military strength or more nukes than a handful we can sit around and cuss them to eternity, because we are going to lose lives big way in any great game without adequate, & reliable military backup and nuclear arsenal.
No use crying over spilt milk, of primary important right now is to establish direct land links with middle-east (Iran) and Central Asia. If entire countries need to be eliminated for this purpose .. so be it.
Hi Raju,
As Dr. Mitra has very cleverly not used Sri. Singh's name - even if Sri. Singh wanted to there is no way to take Dr. Mitra to court over such an allegation.
Now while that may seem like a smart move Dr. Mitra's part to some people, others might simply see it as a very well planned smear campaign mounted by a person who obviously dislikes the economic reforms introduced by Sri. Singh after 1992.
You may see this as a "nugget" or "deep wisdom" however others may simply see this as "more agitprop".
If the same degree of public scrutiny that is afforded to MMS, is applied to these commentators, then I wonder how many of them will be able to last a day without running to court screaming for protection from defamation.
MMS is variously described as "soft spoken" and "reserved". Recently a retired intelligence officer commented publicly that Sri. Singh does not "tickle" peoples' "egos".
This is the charge that has stuck against him - i.e. he is secretive in the manner he approaches things. This same charge is levelled against Sonia Gandhiji also.
I offer a relatively simple explanation of this - as the people accusing her and MMS of secrecy didn't exactly trust her to begin with - she and MMS probably find themselves under no obligation to trust their detractors. I suspect that this is underlying dynamic at work here.
I feel as with anyone with an ounce of adminstrative experience - the PM simply does not have time to waste on people whose view are either irrelevant or outdated to the process of policymaking. I feel a good administrator doesn't get drawn into random fights and focuses on doing the needful.
And SG, well ... when I think of the kinds of things the late Pramod Mahajan used to say about her... it is difficult to see how she will feel anything charitable about her detractors. Whenever she has opened her mouth people have rushed to insult her - so it is no surprise that she keeps silent.
As regards relatives in the US is concerned,... err.. that same charge can be levelled against most of the people railing against the deal on the forum and elsewhere.
Are all these people "fall guys" too?
I feel there is a lesson to be learned here. When everyone who speaks is simply insulted and lampooned, then people in a position of authority do not feel comfortable talking.
I think this speaks to levels to which debate in India has degenerated. To quote a friend from BR, "Indians simply can't talk to each other anymore - they have to hurl insults.. in parliament no one talks anymore its all invectives."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Turn the tables on the west before they turn the tables on us.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
If you turn the table, the west will just take the dishes off the table first. We're good at that you know? :->
I don't know what you think the "west" is going to do to India energy wise. It's got me scratching my head in wonderment.
Evidently, you expect that India is going to start exploding nukes at a future time?
If you do, then that sorta worries me. Might disturb the plate tectonics, man.
Raju,
Your recipe for accessing resources puts us in a position where trade potential demonstrations and riots in Delhi for guarenteed riots in delhi, karachi, peshawar etc...
All this push to Iran and CA is fine but who is going to rule all those restive populations?
If we can't rule them then what integrity will those energy corridors have. They will be breached on a daily basis. The damn pipelines will have more holes than the Sui gas line.
Very unchankian if we simply trade one set of problems for another less manageable set.
The energy crisis has a resolution, diversify - get as many different kinds of energy production things going. Use nuclear for baseload and use solar, biogas etc... for smaller residential loads.
I don't see how adding adminstrative responsibilities for 500 million more poor radicalised people to our existing burden is going to make the crowds any less riot prone.
(start joke)
(start conspiracy theory)
Well whatever you do - don't p.o. the reptilians. They are dangerous at the best of times.
You know that is the one thing that always bothered me about them is the living underground bit -- I mean besides the smug smiley faces that seem to sport at all times of the day.
I get the feeling that they know more about global warming then they are letting on.
Not to sound prejudiced or anything -- but I wouldn't put it past them to withold information about a severe solar activity cycle until it puts them in a position of advantage when we have to bargain for space in their tunnels.
And get this - done in this fashion - they can get us to dig more tunnels for them - for a price .. i.e. our lives.
(end conspiracy theory)
(end joke)
I mean seriously why stop at plate tectonics and the rothschilds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The energy crisis has a resolution, diversify - get as many different kinds of energy production things going. Use nuclear for baseload and use solar, biogas etc... for smaller residential loads.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Absolutely. Diversity is the key. I also think we are on the bleeding edge of great technology innovation. I know it's easy to say but I really see some great things coming oil of the US's Great Speculative Oil Bubble. I think its impact will be global in scale.
of primary important right now is to establish direct land links with middle-east (Iran) and Central Asia. If entire countries need to be eliminated for this purpose .. so be it.
Raju,
Study the history of those countries which occupied other countries, especially at some distance from their own borders and their economic situation as it then existed in the world then and you will discover without fail that other countries had faith in their IOUs i.e. IOUs being the currency of the country sending that expeditionary force or occupying another country. Where in that hierarchy is India's economy/currency today and is it on the right trajectory?
Secondly they also had a self sufficiency in military equipment required for the war effort. When I read stories of SU-30s being grounded because tires are not being delivered by the Russians...one begins to wonder at the ability to prosecute a sustained campaign....
I dont know if you are a NJPRI in Dilli. If you are, I would suggest you think carefully of the foregoing before deciding to "eliminate entire countries".
this MegaKhel is the perfect storm for IsharaaMasters ...
it used to be that the issues were real but the responses of the GrandMasters were in the form of Isharaas ...
now, the reverse is happening ... the issue itself is an arcane Isharaa into which the MahaAyatollahs are trying to shoe-horn real events ...
kinda like reality imitating Isharaa ... (need that buggy-eyed emoticon here ...)
Folks,
I must say that I was completely wrong about WebMaster-jee ...
I thought that he had basic understanding of science and hence I did not criticize that aspect of things ...
now, I am not sure ... I notice that he is quoting CPI(M) crap on technical matters ...
try as I might I can't ignore this ...
I was giving some leeway on the Excel Spreadsheet Gyaan etc etc, but this is beyond redemption ...
not only that he is bolding the fact that he wants the Planning Commission to come up with the estimates ...
I thought he was capable of understanding basic science, but I stand corrected ... rather than grasp the essence of AK's plan, he has joined the jumping brigade ...
now I understand when Mav says that the situation is really *sad* ... can't think of a better term ...
there is no move to respond to Amber G. ... or ldev ... or katare ... just exercising Banner-jee right to Maro Gaali at AK et al ...
IsharaMaster and Webmaster can ban all dissenting voices and then cook up their theories/numbers and present them to clueless YesMasters ...
:)
The energy crisis has a resolution, diversify - get as many different kinds of energy production things going. Use nuclear for baseload and use solar, biogas etc... for smaller residential loads.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Absolutely. Diversity is the key. I also think we are on the bleeding edge of great technology innovation. I know it's easy to say but I really see some great things coming oil of the US's Great Speculative Oil Bubble. I think its impact will be global in scale.
yup you have got it almost right in my opinion. nukes are intended to form the backbone of your grid and comparing them to intermittent power sources ( wind, solar etc) , is foolishness.
Nukes and renewables are complementary to each other . for instance wind power turbines suffer greatly when operating in areas co-located with coal based plants . Air quality has a huge impact on turbine efficiency . now if you have less coal based plants i.e you have more nuke plants , renewable tech can be deployed more easily. this is just one example, there are other instances of convergence as well,especially when talking about managing the grid . nukes have high availability and PLF and they can allow higher grid penetration by IPS .
however IPS will always be more lucrative for decentralised generation. And instead of foolishly trying to grid connect everybody , we should be looking at decentralised generation seriously.
on the solar side , concentrated solar power and not solar pV is a grid connected possibility . for the simple reason that in CSP's case, storage is not an issue given the presence of a thermodynamic cycle.
in all of this our uber rakshaks on Df do not talk about energy conservation . they only want to play catch up with the world. this is another example of foolishness. th per capita energy availability in the U.S is obscene and they will have to come down from that. we shouldn't be aspiring to ever reach those figures as they are unsustainable to say the least .
the amount of energy that you need to live decently is way way below the figures being touted by certain vested interests. And it is this figure which should be the world average , if we are indeed serious about "global warming". Remember the cheapest unit of power is the unit that you do not have to generate.
the only problem with the "transistion" to sustainability lies in the fact that most renewable tech patents are with big energy conglomerates. Naturally they would therefore try to set the pace of the transition.
As far as China cornering Uranium resources is concerned , it may happen if we continue to be outside the world of nuclear trade.
the guys who supply nuke reactors also kinda control who gets the uraanium. so if you buy their wares they will make sure you get enough fuel.
I think one of our main concerns post nuke deal will be to acquire plutonium from decommissioned russki weapons so that we can start up our second stage more easily.
one of our pvt companies is already operating in Niger and post nuke deal collaboration with the frenchies is a distinct possibility.
one of the justifications for our presence in central asia can be Uzbekistan .....
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Hi Saurabh,
a couple of points ...
1. the "thermodynamic cycle" in concentrated solar is not yet a proven concept on a large scale ... I believe Solar Tres is shooting for a 50 MW plant? ... however, until that happens, it is still a pipe dream ...
2. the reason I worry abut China cornering the market is because they already have a favorable trade advantage with a lot of countries who are looking for ways to pay back ... and China is happy to receive U as payment instead of $$ which is useless ...
Alok-N,
Barter repayment to make up for a trade imbalance?
it has happened before , but it has generally happened outside of the balance of payments mechanism.e.g nuke for missiles deal between noko and pukes. basically these work as "direct trades" rather than through the BOP mechanism where payment necessarily has to be made in currency .
most countries generally look at overall deficits, rather than just a specific country . of course in the china-U.s example china accounts for a huge share of their trade deficit.in any case it is the relative terms of trade that matters here.
However any trade deficit also represents the business patterns of various groups in a country .
so unless it is a remarkably small country with command and control systems , repaying in oil or uranium is going to be determined by the relative power held by various business interests in that country .
in the case of uranium , though it might be present in Niger ( small country ) for all practical purposes it would be the French company that will dictate where it heads and they would relent only if you simultaneously purchase their wares.
Besides on the dollar front , France and Russia will increasing look at Euro denominated trade so , today we do have another pseudo-reserve currency .
Industry structure and relative terms of trade and the BOP portfolio cannot be discounted .
Saurabh,
arre bhai, why look too far?
for a long while, India sent goods to USSR, in order to pay for arms that it imported ...
You could give it a cute name like "Rouble-Rupee Trade" but it was a barter, plain and simple ...
Rupees were useless outside India and Roubles were useless outside the Soviet Block ...
Alok_N
I think things need to be clarified a bit here . CSP is certainly not a pipedream and I think you are referring to the pure steam cycle type.
Now as you know most CSP plants are ISCCs with a 30-50 MW solar component . The viability of this type is proved beyond doubt and some plants have breached the 13 cent per unit mark.
Spanish companies like Abengoa have proved the viability of steam cycle plants as well (solar tower). these plants have drum storage . Also molten salt is another promising technology.
Rajasthan is pretty bullish on CSP and some 200 MW worth of plants are coming up there .
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I Knew you would mention the mango for bearings trade between the USSR and us.
But times have changed and today no barter trade is easy between mature economies,with diversified interest : groups and proper national account systems .
case in point is the breakdown of the rupee-rouble trade . basically its not so easy to get off the BOP balance sheet that easily anymore. Accounting practices are now much more standardized .
the rupee -"rubble" trade happened when you had one superpower with a Command economy and another 'ally ' also with a dirigiste socialist economy with the public sector calling the shots.
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here are some interesting steam cycle plants (some need diesel starts)
Location Total capacity (MWe) Solar capacity Cycle
(Mwe)
THESEUS – Crete, Greece 50 50 Steam cycle
Italy 40 40 Steam cycle
Spain 12x50 12x50 Steam Cycles with 0.5 to 12 hours
storage for solar-only operation
with 12-15% hybrid firing
Spain 10 + 2x20 10 + 2x20 Steam Cycle with saturated steam
Solar Towers with Steam Receivers receiver and
PS10 and PS20 steam drum storage
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>>>>>>>>>>> Now as you know most CSP plants are ISCCs with a 30-50 MW solar component .
boss, 30-50 MW is basically crap when the projected needs are 300,000 - 500,000 MW ...
and yes, I am quite familiar with the "promise of molten salt" ... google "solar two" one of these days ...
as for bilateral trade, you are welcome to make like a Banner-jee and ban it ...
but, some may find ways to work around your Intrusive Inspections ...
hey man ,
we are all aware of the needs and I am no votary of shifting to CSP for base load even if a pure steam cycle plant demonstrates 200 MW . because the simple figures are
8-10 acres for every MW of PV
6-8 acres for every MW of CSP.
so land is a huge constraint here. but if indeed any form of solar power should be considered for grid connect , it should be CSP and not PV. given it that it can still store some power.
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on the 'barter trade" issue , certainly there are means but they are not easy.
countries are primarily concerned about the overall BOP and as long as I keep importing non-debt creating capital and/or can increase exports to wherever, I can finance a deficit, without going bust . why should I give another country an offline payment without any commensurate advantage ?
I would of course do it , if my nuclear establishment also got to sell a few reactors.
Moreover , in the case of the U.S, most of the shouting about deficits vis a vis China is due to the fact that China is selectively granting access to American firms and that doesn't suit certain business interests.
so if India is willing to buy uranium and reactors and f-solah , i'll sell it to them as i can increase my export earnings by a far greater quantum here
what I am basically saying is that China may corner the market if we stay out of it given that they are building a lot of reactors as well.
>>>>>>>> what I am basically saying is that China may corner the market if we stay out of it given that they are building a lot of reactors as well.
boss, after a lot of running around, this is back to what I said ... just make these two changes:
"China may" ---> "China will"
"if we stay out" ----> "we will stay out"
Karat-e-chop has delivered this to his masters ... only complete morons and UberRakshaks fail to see this ...
Birathers,
why do I see so MANY deleted comments? what is being kept from me? :(
This is a consbiracy I tell you...
hehe ... N^3 is adding some mirch masala with J^3 ...
the new term is Enlightened Moderator ... in the vernacular, Roshan Khayali Banner-jee ...
meanwhile, Rangudu's summary is worth quoting:
"Sure, let's admire a Chinese puppet whose party betrayed the country during its darkest days. All because he brought down a government for signing a deal that our party would have signed in a heartbeat were we in power."
dar-e-pok,
deleteing bosts and re-bosting ij the advanjed tareeka phor editing bosts on this dhagaa ...
ducking phor chatri jee ujej it every din ...
Sorry to see AmberG, a person of extraordinary qualification getting so frustrated with the moderation failures. About time. I hope someone has the time, will and capability to start a new forum/website. Blogs can only do so much..
Mav - Indeed it is sad, and as if just to prove your point, DF is showing it in clear terms.
Like, someone pointed out, those who will strip and protest, dig cricket grounds.. etc.. are showing their class in DF...Those chaddiwalas have lost even their chaddis and are resorting to "admin hats"..
What a bunch of jumping fat nutrias (not to be confused with neutrinos )
egjactly I do use "adbhanced editing".. many apologies wonlee saar.
dear Alok_N ,
I fail to see how may and will are synonymous .the world is suddenly not going to let china take over control of the uraanium market especially not phor BOP issues.
moreover at the risk of being a complete moron , I must say that they will have to order enough reactors to get enough uranium.
moreover bhe bhill also do the same. bhe are not out of the game, not yet. onlee bhe bhill also create "strategic reserve" and have enough FBRs in place to extend bhatever we can get.
by the way ,
it ij Saurav and not Saurabh Saar.
yes, treating Amber with ROFL-onlee comments by a Banner-jee was tasteless ...
if a new website starts, it could follow the principles of Enlightened Moderation laid out by Mav in this thread ... all Banner-jee'ing should be term-limited ...
if we can find someone who is all this phpBB savvy, surely we can fund the web hosting itself ...
However, I like the concept of not having a million dhagaas for commentary ... this blog comment section has worked well in keeping all the comments in one place ... perhaps a new website could have a few discussion threads instead of just one, but perhaps not 50 of them ...
also, a section with short essays could be the main attraction ... Mav's blog commentary length is appropriate ... the difference would be that all members would be able to post their essays (which is what can happen here except that everyone needs their own blog space) ...
by the way what is worse ?
1. uber rakshak
2. complete moron
bhy the way bhen reading my posts please understand
J^3 = jerqyoob = dharm parivartit avatar = hypersonic mullah= iit studied gas turbine expert= Pinglish speaker= noo editaar of DF patrika
bhen Alok_N ujes it
J^3 = jpeg jingo grandmaster
Dear Saurav,
>>>>>> I must say that they will have to order enough reactors to get enough uranium.
the data that you posted shows that they will add ~18 GW by 2013 ... let us apply the math-e-webmaster-jee or math-e-modified-e-katare-jee ...
maybe, just take the average ... something like 200-250 tonnes/GW/year seems reasonable ...
so for 18 GW, dragon-jee is adding about 4,000 tonnes new demand by 2013 ...
from you data, the rest of the world (except India who is in a Doghouse) is adding another 4,000 tonnes or so ...
the world's capacity is about 50,000 tonnes per year right now ... ths amount is already spoken for, so the new demand will require increase in production by about 15-20% in both mining and enrichment capacity ...
Mining maybe ok because 1 billion chinamen are available to dig up kangaroo land ...
but what about enrichment capacity? ... who is adding that and where?
Will India be able to compete in this market? ... judging from the oil contracts market, my guess is NO ...
in any case, all this is academic because there will be no new reactors in India ...
PROBLEM SOLVED INDIA-ISHTYLE ONLEE!
oh well, it is clear that a large section of DF (and hence, presumably, India?) is in the following mode:
1. H&D ij ebhreething
2. Eat grass, make bum
3. Burn thorium in choolah
as an aside, it seems all the folks who post with reason are pro-deal ... the anti-dealers tend to be non-technical, Isharaa-vadi conjbirajy theory types ...
hmm ... time to phorget all thij and go baalish mijjile ...
thij ij bhat draft IAEA agreement say..
excerpt
--------
It will be also noted that the draft agreement includes an undertaking by India and the Agency
that in the event that India decides to offer an enrichment plant in the future as a facility subject to the
agreement, India and the Agency shall consult and agree on the application of the Agency’s safeguards
procedures before any such facility is subject to the agreement (paragraph 86).
When safeguards are applied to new facilities under this agreement, the Agency will incur
additional expenses. On the assumption that 2009 will be the first year that the Agency will start
implementing this agreement at new facilities, a supplementary appropriation to the regular budget
will be requested as agreed by the Board of Governors at its 9 July 2007 session. The estimated cost
for the first year for one new facility would be in the order of € 1.2 million.
now again at the risk of becoming a moron jee , i think that says something...
the bhorld is aware of uraaanium crunch possibility somebhere down the line. that is bhy all this GNEP bijness. moreover Niger is still virgin so ij sea water and bhen uraaanim reaches 120 dallar/ pound , as it may due to prejjure phrom Cheen and Bharat mata , sea water is fair game.
i habh spoken to some chaiwallahs eben yesterday ad they seem conphident.
saar,
the structure oph the uraanium market and oil market ij bhery different . you may agree bhith me you may not .
however, I won't go against the "may " as i did not in the first place .there is always a 'may'.
some data , just to aid the discussion . All figures in thousand tonnes.
Supplier 2007 2010 2015
Cameco (Canada & UK)
13.7 15.5 15.5
Areva
14 14 15
ConverDyn
12 14 18
Rosatom
5 5.5 10
China
1.5 2.5 2.5
UF6e inventories
20.1 20.8 11
Total supply
66.3 72.3 72
Requirements (ERI)
59 62-65 67-77
Requirements (WNA)
61 61-64 70-77
Source: Julian Steyn, EDI, Nuclear Engineering International Sept 2007 (except last line).
so aj you can see Alok_N's uraanium crunch ij probably going to happen ...
bhut my samudra manthan se uraanium ij also going to start then
--------------------------------------
just some phigures for uber rakshaks / kuber rakshaks given that some of them often like to point out bhere they work and how much money they make ...
earlier we were using 27 kg of uranium fuel for every 1 million units of generation.
today our PHWRs use 20 kg for every million units.
gentlemen you may want to read this link on the Adijhona plant ( CSP)
http://solveclimate.com/blog/20080221/worlds-largest-solar-plant-az-hinges-us-congress
more interesting links with the first one having cost figures
http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/technology/2008/02/21/big-solar-project-planned-for-arizona-desert.html
http://www.aps.com/main/green/Solana/About.html
Hi, I second Mav's enlightened moderation ideas for a forum. It would also be good if there was a way to identify 'experts' or at least people with serious ideas, who can then have a different set of posting privileges. A lot of folks posting on BR are basically whiners who come there to vent their frustrations.
p.s.: why are so many comments deleted?
sorry ,
I am responsible for that , it ij a adbhanced phorm of editing, that i practice regularly
ducking_for_cover:
by the way what is worse ?
1. uber rakshak
2. complete moron
Huh? You mean there's a difference?
Alok_N:
Karat-e-chop has delivered this to his masters ... only complete morons and UberRakshaks fail to see this ...
Speaking of Karat and the UberRakshaks... one mega-genius has posted a rhetorical question in one of the nuclear dhaagas. I paraphrase: "Why are pro-dealers taking the word of Kakodkar as some great authority on the subject, but rejecting the word of Karat?"
It doesn't seem to have occurred to this genius that AK is India's premier nuclear scientist, and therefore, by definition, a subject matter expert on this topic (operation of nuclear reactors), whereas Karat is India's premier political gasbag, and therefore a subject-matter ignoramus on this topic.
okay it seems the found that the chinese have found themselves a uranium mine in the form of accumulated coal ash
read
http://www.spartonres.ca/download/World_Nuclear_News-October2007.pdf
P.S we can do it too
Uraanium price reached 135 dollar/pound in june 2007 before faaling back to 60 dollar now . grrreat , recovery from phosphates and sea water here we come!
Niger is producing maal thick and fast ! hmmm.. seems like bhirginity is being lost fast...
dilbert ,
the old adage
all uberrakshaks are complete morons but not all complete morons are uberrakshaks.
okay sorry ,
have some observations to make .
AmberG refers to Df as a private club and MegaBC takes umbrage .. this guy's memory really needs to be fixed ...
because it was MegaBC who used the term club before anybody else.
AmberG, spend more time here , forget these DF wallahs and their doomsday scenarios...
only a few military threads are doing ok , everything else is going haywire in the private club that operates in the public domain
Wow. BRF is turning into the Animal Farm. Can't say that I am sad to see it happen either.
why throw aspersions at pigs, a la animal farm?
these are banner-jees like MegaBC who are clinging to power and heading for lamppost onlee ... even the Great Gola saw value in EnMo and enabled a peaceful trasnsition of power ... LOL
Saurav,
ok, you don't like barter and/or bilateral trade ...
so, how long do you think it will be before countries will be entering into Renyemi/yuan denominated trade?
Boss log,
I want to start a collection to fund an IsharaMaster of the Year award to John Snow ...
The dude has never made sense in the 5 years or so I have observed his crap ...
Here is an open challenge:
I have some archived posts ... I can dig one out of, say, 2004 ...
I challenge John SNow to read his own post and recall the "isharaa" he was giving ... my guess is that he will flunk badly ...
I have given this same test to WineTastingMasters ... they are called SOmmonalier or some such crap in Latin or whatever ... try this ... take *very* good notes when they describe a wine ...
you know stuff like "the robust bouquet reminds one of the young strawberries while they jostle with the pepper sneaking in, of course, hiding behind the oak ..." blah bla ...
2 hours later, you catch the dude and say, "Excuse me, I am looking for the wine in which the robust bouquet reminds one of the young strawberries while they jostle with the pepper sneaking in, of course, hiding behind the oak ... Could you help me find it?" ...
the look on the dude's face is worth 1000 Kodak moments ... :)
by the way, for those who still care about Banner-jee shenanigans, here is a translational table with 4-digit accuracy:
vishwakarmaa = DisHon WebMaster-jee
pamaru == MegaBC Darpok-jee
a_kumar == new chidiya heard from ... any guesses?
hamumandu == never seen the due before ... could be genuine non-bannerjee-clone ...
Tanay == another new species of bird ...
there are other brand new jokers like R_kumar etc and then the dude who incited the ROFL with Amber etc etc ...
for 3 years the number of players were fairly consistent ...
now, in one week, we have a new joker parade ... methinks Banner-jees are utilizing the PrivatePartsClub to the hilt ... LOL ...
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Alok_N ,
the russkis and french would be happy to be paid in euros for the time being..
the yuan will not be favoured as it is a fixed currency ,
however I have a feeling as and when a common asian oil market is set up , a new currency say 'Asio' may start emerging.
of course this will require close co-ordination and need uniformity in monetary policy. that is of course already happening to a degree with almost all big central banks in Asia having to resort to 'sterilisation' in order to keep inflation in check.
a bit strange, eh?
I was floating simple concepts like bilateral trade etc. and you had problems with that ...
now, out of nowhere you pull out this "Asio" concept and we are supposed to accept that? ...
what gives, boss? ... pace your debate ...
:)
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let the discussion focus on the renmibi then...
okay it seems that the DF people have finally discovered the World Nuclear Association site and thank god for that .
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