Friday, July 04, 2008

On the practice of "Isharaabaazi"

Hi,

A discussion has come up in the earlier thread about the use of "isharaas" or indirect suggestion/speculation/comment to convey points in the debate on the forum. The "isharaa" technique is particularly powerful because it holds out the implicit claim of detailed and verifiable knowledge. Backed by a serious body of research and peer reviewed publications, a speculative framework can be constructed and in the right place and time - a speculation can open new fields of thinking. However on the flip side - a poorly constructed argument can also be inflated with "isharaas" to seem substantial.

Despite this drawback - I don't see how one can avoid this practice as a whole as speculation is a very big part of debate.

I do have the following concerns:

1) I don't like the idea of this "isharaa" technique being used against GoI. I recall a NPA blogsite that carried "isharaas" about the similarity between compounds used by DAE to refine fissile material and compounds used to make methamphetamines. While I do not doubt that an NPA blogger could be very well versed in both those things - i.e. making meth and making fissile material - the "isharaa" was aimed to suggest that DAE was in the drug trade. I fail to see how this kind of "isharaa" is useful to Indians. Can the supporters of this technique please comment on how such a pitfall is to be avoided?

2) The text of the "isharaas" often targets Western MNCs and indirectly accuses them of unfair and improper business practices. While the indirect nature of the comments makes a libel charge difficult to sustain, it may be recalled that Indian MNCs can be subject to a similar campaign of villification. This campaign is likely to be even more effective given that most Indian MNCs can't buy the kind of publicity that western MNCs routinely do. Can the proponents of the "isharaa" technique please provide a prescription against such a use?

3) The sum of several "isharaas" can add up in unintended ways. For example, someone makes an "isharaa" to indicate that Agni has X-range with Y kg warhead. Someone else steps in and "isharaas" that a *computer* simulation suggests that the Agni's range can be extended from X- X++ with a Y-- warhead. Then someone else comes in and "isharaas" that with X++ range and Y-- warheads, an entire city in a land far far far far away can be wiped off the face of this earth provided a Y-- capability warhead can be built. Soon the security services of this nation far far far away develop a sense of concern about all these "isharaas" flying around and when Secy to the GoI visits this country, the security people ask him/her "so what is with the Agni, we hear you are planning to hit us?". Can the people who use this "isharaa" technique please tell me how they intend to contain a widening of the "isharaa"sphere?

I am confused as to how this "isharaa" technique is entirely harmless.

I remain open minded on this issue.

418 Comments:

At 3:02 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Hi Mav,

I am less charitable to this "isharaa" business ...

IMO, it reflects a half-baked mind ... the ishara-baaz may have read a lot of material but failed to digest and/or condense it into a clear understanding ...

so, rather than display the muddled nature of the situation, the person resorts to an isharaa ... because of the incomplete nature of an isharaa, it maintains perfect deniability ...

if the person is challenged on a point later, he can just say "you misunderstood my isharaa" ...

I am not saying that the information content in an isharaa is zero either ... it is just that the info content is disconnected and has not been processed into an integral argument ...

in real life if I meet isharaa-bazi, my only response is "spit it out, man ... what are you trying to say?" ... the web should not be any different ...

 
At 3:11 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

John Snow (did he claim that he was an engineer?) has once again brought up the bogey of hydrogen ...

if his understanding of engineering (much like all else he posts) is based on Filmi Songs, I sympathize ...

however, if he understands energy efficiency, he will realize that moving to hydrogen makes the energy situation worse ... India will need *more* energy to run a hydrogen economy ...

 
At 3:47 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi Alok_N,

I think AK's talk at IISC clearly points out what is possible in the alternative fuels scenario presently.

I don't know why Umrao Jaan choses to oppose the deal - but then I understand very little of YR's thinking anyway. I remain as baffled today about his world view as the day he suddenly turned on ABV in the middle of the NDA reign.

The nature of his aspirations for India remains abstruse.

 
At 3:58 PM, Blogger Vladimir said...

more ishaarebaazi by arun_s:

Prof APJ Kalam is known to not correct or reprimanded reporter or hosts when they introduce and glorify him as country's top nuclear scientist. Are only DDM and editors responsible for dorkiness?

so now apj, simply because he doesn't publicly excoriate the ddm when they call him a nuclear scientist, is...? a traitor? a sell-out? or simply an old idiot? i dunno what arun is trying to paint him as with this ishaara.

btw, when was the last time *any* indian scientist reprimanded the media? so what does that make them?

for all the work done by shiv and n^3, the mudslinging and personal attacks on the scientific community are still continuing unabated. sure, they might now be sugarcoated in nicer language, or cloaked in isharaas, but they are still there.

its pathetic...

 
At 5:14 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Not surprisingly, there hasn't been any criticism of AK's plan ... apparently, everyone on DF is stunned ...

all you see are comments like this from NRao:

Are slides 13 and 14 some kind of hints? "FBR Using spent fuel from LWR" and right below that "LWR (Imported)".

Those giving isharaas tend to find isharaas even in charts that are crystal clear ...

the point of slides 13 and 14 is simply this:

If India delays the import of LWRs by a decade, the inflexion point in the supply curve is all pushed down 10 years (including gestation period for FBRs) ... hence, the need for imported coal also does not go down as quickly ...

do the TerraBoom warriors really want India dependent on 1 BILLION tonnes of coal import? ... from the same Aussies whom you don't want to depend on for Uranium imports? ...

where is the logic in that?

Also, do you want Indian Navy defending the Coal shipping lanes? .. recall that U can be imported by airplanes ...

let's see what DF warriors come up with ...

perhaps back to the days when one of them remarked, "we will burn thorium in our choolahs" ...

 
At 6:26 PM, Blogger GinC said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 6:28 PM, Blogger GinC said...

>>>>let's see what DF warriors come up with ...

I bet, they will come up with something like:

"Ir is a well known fact that not all odd numbers are prime"

And then will go on to discredit Ramanujan.

Because they don;t like the math department in IIT/K.

 
At 6:32 PM, Blogger GinC said...

vladimir - there are two people even in DF who don't like all that isharas of bannerjis.

Arun_s was obvious, but now I know why they call other the IsharaMaster.

 
At 6:51 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

ginc,

check this:

"Dr Kalam's views should be quoted for their merits and not because of his being a 'nuclear scientist' which he is not. "

similarly, a postor's views should be viewed by their merit and not because he is a banner-jee ...

so suppose a newbie gives an "isharaa one-liner" versus the IsharaaMaster himself ...

will one isharaa carry more weight?

 
At 7:05 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

UberRakshaks are not known to take NO for an answer ... here is one fearless warrior who demands thusly:

RajRang (with a roar): "What limits the compounding rate? If you compound at a faster rate, then, you will reach the target sooner."

AnilK (in a mousy voice): "gustakhi maaf huzoor. it is that pesky new clear phyzzk that is limiting us. Please ban this phyzzk thing and post a JPeg of a higher doubling rate"

RajRang: "Thathastu!

It was done as He wished, and it was good ... DF saved the day yet again!

On to next episode of JPegMard ...

 
At 7:11 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Here is RajRang on July 5, 1:50 am GMT:
---------------------------
"Again, what is the limit then to a more rapid growth rate? My apologies for my ignorance."
--------------------

Here was RajRang on July 4, 1:50 am GMT:
------------------
"I personally think (educated guess) that this deal will give India about 50 GW of nuclear power installed during the next 20 years - maybe 100 GW over 30 years - because beyond that thorium reactors shoudl be available (going by statements in this thread) and this deal will be irrelevant.

By 2050, India should have an installed capacity of 2500 GW, by 2070 10,000 GW (all assuming approximate 7% annual compounded growth rate)- compared to 1200 GW or so for the U.S. today. Then the 50 GW gain (or even if it is 100 or 150 GW over 30 years), is trivial in the long term compared to figures like 2500 GW and 10,000 GW.

In any case market forces would have found an alternative to the above 50 or 100 GW of nuclear power - possibly at a cheaper cost - in the absence of the deal."

-------------

A miraculous transformation from UberEducatedGuessDude to MerePardonIgnoranceDude ...

some folks take DF seriously ... :)

 
At 7:43 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

24 hours can transform a lot, but don't hope for miracles ... our man persists:

"But on slide 12, I see Thorium reactors in significant capacities by 2030 (purple color). Am I missing something?"

yes sir, you are missing something, but as Enqyoob would say, "not for me to say WHAT" ...

this is where Isharaa-baazi leads you ... in the politically motivated days of FizzleBum, all postors who dissed the DAE were given free reign by banner-jees ... regardless of how clueless their comments were ... as long as they were cursing the establishment, they were A-ok ...

now, this culture has settled in ...

a couple of years ago, a postor such as this would have been asked to go read the archives for 2 months and then post ...

the isharaa-baazi has given us a JPegJingo-giri even on the nuke thread ...

 
At 7:45 PM, Blogger l said...

>>do the TerraBoom warriors really want India dependent on 1 BILLION tonnes of coal import?

alok n,

Its actually 1.6 billion tons of coal if there is no deal. :)

Sometimes its fun to do some calculations. Hmm. 1.6 billion tons per year is 4.38 million tons per day of coal imports. If a large bulk carrier which can access an Indian port is 80,000 tons, then 54 such ships will need to unload every day at Indian ports, 365 days a year. These ships will have to import the coal from every corner of the world and the average round trip could be 6 weeks. That means India will need 54 X 42 = 2268 ships in a coal carrying fleet just to service its appetite for coal for its thermal power stations.

:)

ldev

 
At 8:08 PM, Blogger dilbert said...

Mav:

I’m really glad you started this thread, because the damned ishaarabazi gets on my nerves. I don’t quite agree with your take on it; I think Alok_N has it about right. Let me explain how I see the matter.

For the benefit of our non-Hindi-speaking readers, the word ishaara in Hindi/Urdu means “hint”, or “tip” or “pointing to” or some kind of indirect indication (of a certain fact, or what the ishaara-giver claims is a fact, to another person). The Hindi idiom Akalmand (or Budhimaan) ko ishaara kaafi is a more or less exact equivalent of the English idiom “A word to the wise is sufficient”. So all this ishaara-giving is really nothing more than a “wink and a nod” or Monty Python’s “nudge-nudge, wink-wink, know what I mean, guv? Know what I mean?”, and the ishaara-giver (IG) smugly sits back and lets the ishaara-receiver (IR) marvel at his knowledge and intelligence, and the fact that he has the good sense not to spell out his secret knowledge clearly. Meanhwhile the poor IR is sitting there thinking “WTF? What does it mean? I don’t have a clue, but then that’s probably because I’m not a subject-matter expert like IG, I’m just a poor dumb non-akalmand IR”.

This kind of nudge-nudge wink-wink ishaarabazi used to be rampant on the nuke threads and missile threads of the forum. The reasons it is bad are as follows:
1. It doesn’t communicate any info clearly to anyone except an IR who is already on the exact same wavelength as the IG and agrees with him. If the purpose of a forum is for *everyone* to understand what everyone else is saying (not necessarily agree, mind you, just understand), then all these ishaaras are worthless junk to the poor IR who is not already a member of the IG’s secret cabal. If the purpose of the ishaara is just to communicate with a small group of your IR-chelas (a sort of dog-whistle to the chelas), why use a forum/blog? Simple email will do the job much better.
2. It slyly gives the IG carte-blanche to say anything he damn well pleases and not be held to account later if it turns out he is badly wrong. After all, the IG was clearly right all along, it’s not his fault if these stupid IRs mis-read his signal/ishaara.
I don’t see any other purpose to this BS than just to allow these IGs to hide behind their nudge-nudge wink-wink, dog-whistle to their chelas and never be accountable for their bad calls. But then we get excuses like “You know, if we don’t use ishaaras the Delhi Police will arrest us”. WTF? Who buys this bullshit?

 
At 9:22 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

This is another type of Isharaa-bazi ... In response to Enqyoob's query about metallic fuels for breedors, here is what John Snow posted:

-----------------------
N guru
MOX IS OXIDE FUEL
read here

http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/neep423/FALL99/lecture3.pdf

------------------------

THis should be labeled GoogleIsharaaGiri ...

the pdf in that link has ZERO relevance to metallic fuels in breding ...

clearly the link was arrived at by quick googling of keywords ...

in this instance, even the postor has not read the link he has posted (I hope so ... it would be worse if he read it and was still clueless) ...

such ignorance would be hghlighted in the old days of DF ...

now, it is par for the course ...


thanksfully, John Snow did not attach a Filmi Song to the pdf ... but in any case, my guess is that he helped Enqyoob about as much as ... yes, you guessed it ... a vacuum explosion in Pindi helps light up the dark side of the moon ...

:)

 
At 9:30 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 9:30 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

As Dilbert would explain it, the IG in this case, John Snow, is putting the IR in this case, N^3, in a difficult situation ...

he spends 15 mins scanning the pdf (as I did), before he says, "WTF?" ...

but, now N^3 is a cool dude so he won't be phased ... but a lesser being would start a cycle of self-doubt ...

"John Snow Saar is so Knaawlijibal, I must be the STOOPID one not to get it. Better hang my head in shame rather than ask the question again."

and once agian, IsharaaBaazi would have won ...

the clear answer is for IG to post a few sentence summary of the massive pdf he is shoving in the direction of IR ...

of course, such discipline is lost when Banner-jees and their buddies (in this case John Snow) are the IsharaaMasters themselves ...

 
At 9:48 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>>That means India will need 54 X 42 = 2268 ships in a coal carrying fleet just to service its appetite for coal for its thermal power stations.

ldev,

you are making excellent observations ... this shipping number along with your 90 trains per hour number should be an eye-opener ...

I may quibble with you projections a wee bit, but that is not the point ...

you are doing a great job of keeping the discussion on rack and posting relevant articles as opposed to John Snow ...

of course, Chatter-jees have the option to rewind 2-3 years when all of this was discussed in gory detail and with phyzzx accuracy on DF ...

:)

 
At 9:55 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

vina asks:

"Fyzzics gurus.. What are the other new generations reactor designs out there that increase the efficiency.. "

better sit down for this one ...

DF is phyzzx guru NOOD ... all of them are either banned or left ...

well, there is Amber G., but she fcuses more on Math ...

Bade dude is a phyzzix dude but he is on to better things ...

so, there you have it ... IsharaaVaadis have gotten rid of all the folk who could put a controlling torque on massively spinning systems ...

is Gerard a phyzzx-wallah? Dunno ..

if not, then DF is in the hands of IsharaaMasters ... good luck!

 
At 10:34 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

ok, so here is a Harper's style numero-piko-la-jee-cal caamment:

160 == number of active DF participants as judged by the poll on nuke issues

2-4 == number of DF participants willing to write a serious article that goes beyond cud-chewing

0 == number of phyzzx chootiyas on DF

100,000,000 == number of Isharaas being freely emanated fron DF

but then, all of this is pointless ... only Mirza Ghalib can explain it ...

phir kuch is dil ko beqaraari hai
seenaa zoyaa-e-zakhm-e-kaari hai


why else would random folks continue down this path?

adab arz hain DF miyan log

 
At 11:10 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

there, the verdict has been delivered ...

AnilK plus all of DAE phyzzx chootiyas can hide in shame ...

vina boss is the final authority ..

Nah.. Not possible. Even top notch coal fired plants with fluidized bed combustion and other stuff would find it difficult to reach 40% thermodynamic efficiency.. 300 MWe out of 750 MW Thermal (40% efficiency) is extremely aggressive and I don't see anything in the design (I mean the heat transfer and engineering part, not the nuclear part (where I am clueless)) that will take it there.

 
At 1:15 AM, Blogger Anand K said...

>> cycle efficiency... 20 to 25%...Fluidized Bed Combustion.....thermodynamic 40%.... 300MW out of 750MW is aggressive...

Ailaaaaaa! :o
But let me try out my new ishaara ishtyle, if you Akalbands (sic) don't understand then I have more ishaaras up my sleeve:

How many conflations do you think there are here? How long has this being going on?

-Anand K

 
At 5:20 AM, Blogger Anand K said...

Oh BTW, here's a review of "A Case of Exploding Mangoes" by tha Jabberwocky.



:D

-Anand K

 
At 5:23 AM, Blogger Anand K said...

Aiyyo... the html tag (the "a href="url" " thingie)didn't show up?! Bhat thees is?
Here goes once again;
http://jaiarjun.blogspot.com/2008/07/mohammed-hanifs-case-of-exploding.html

In case the url is trunctuated by the blog software, go to jaiarjun at blogspot dot com and find it from the sidebar.

-Anand K

 
At 5:53 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

Here are AnilK's words as reported by K Mehta on DF:

"I would say that we (By we I mean the authorities, politicians, scientists, people everybody) have a very myopic point of view. Few years back we were accused of stockpiling yellow cake and our reactors took 15 years to build, and our reactors were running at 40%-50% efficiency, so we reduced the procurement. Now our reactors are built in 4-5 years and they run at >90% efficiency (I think he mentioned Kondakoolam). So there has been a gap in perception, that is what I would say, but that is not because of neglect. Also in a democracy like India, to get a permission to start a Uranium mine and it to start production takes about 7-8 years, because of bureaucracy and other issues because it is a free state and all the requirements for safety have to be completed."

Makes perfect sense, as was said on this Blog ... no need to have conspiracies in which Rothschilds were telling MMS what to do ...

and then there is this important comment:

"He also said that the import of U at the stage he mentioned was essential and that if we failed in doing that the coming generations will not forgive us for not securing the energy future of India."

 
At 6:00 AM, Blogger Raju said...

Alok bhai, if AnilK was in such desperate need to U and Pu then why did he not approach the PM and why vice-versa ?

he had to be literally arm-twisted by PMO to accept the deal and now he is uttering wonderful words in support of it and how he had *always needed the U*.

this babu can not be trusted.

 
At 6:12 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

Raju,

Have you ever changed your mind based on something new that you learned?

If no, you are stubborn ...

If yes, you can't be trusted ...

:)

 
At 6:18 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

the simple point is that 10 years ago no one was predicting the sustained growth rate that India has seen ... demand for energy goes up as some power of the growth rate ...

the urgency for new sources of energy has lit a fire under the "chalta hai" attitude that had been taken with the 3-stage program ...

now the projections are different ... if the growth rate turns out to be different, 10 years from now folks will look at this plan of AnilK and call him a chootiya ...

that is the nature of planning ...

a plan should not be criticized with hindsight ...

if you think AnilK can't be trusted, find flaws with his plan TODAY, not the plan he had in 1998 ...

 
At 6:34 AM, Blogger Raju said...

Alok, it is in the nature of the nuclear trade that these babus have to plan for many years later and yet they did not plan it earlier that they would run short of U ?

All of a sudden they find that they running short of Uranium ? yeh kaisa ho sakta hain ?

Was India planning during the Vajpayee (it was there until 2004) that such an increase in energy was predicted. Year-on-year the NDA govt too gave similar growth rates as this one .. whether cooked or real is another debate. So what was their planning regarding this ?

Suddenly in MMS regime we learn that we urgently need U. When this *urgent need* is conveyed to Kakodkar his first instinct is to refuse .. lol. This is a first time for the GoI to first germinate an idea in non-scientific circles and then impose a solution on them ostensibly for their own welfare. And then the scientists to the last man oppose it tooth and nail.

Then slowly after many a meeting and GUBO Shri Kakodkar slowly comes around to the view that resistance is futile.

I can accept one fact that this deal might not have any immidiate damage on our strategic programme. But still to be on the safe side it would be worthwhile if this deal was signed in IAEA by a Minority Govt.

that gives us the best escape clause.

 
At 6:37 AM, Blogger Raju said...

I do not accept the view propounded in some circles that Kakodkar is sacrosanct and can resist pressure from SoniaG and ManmohanG. In the end he has to tow the line of PMO as all good babus. Else there are many official and unofficial methods to make him do it.

 
At 6:39 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

Raju,

you are being completely disingenuous ... pretending to not understand India ...

EVERY department in India plans in a totally clueless manner ...

start looking at plans for Railways, Thermal Power, Roads, Gas, Fertilizer, Bathroom Construction, Prmary Education, Higher Education, etc etc ...

tell me which of these departments did a kick-ass job of planning?

then compare it to Nuke Power planning ...

Ball is in your court ...

You pick a department and I will spin a Yarn on how Rothschld is influencing the plannig for that department ...

it is so trivial, it does not even qualify as a good conspiracy theory ...

 
At 6:45 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

A decade ago, the Railways could have known about the upcoming crunch in goods traffic ...

They did nothing ...

Not until Mr. Toyota (or whoever is the Japanese Rothschild) put pressure on Laloo-ji ...

all of a sudden they are building a Dedicated Freight Corridor with all sorts of land being given to Japanese companies along the route ...

Big Conspilacy Onree ...

 
At 6:50 AM, Blogger Raju said...

Let us keep Rothschild aside for the moment.

DAE and Nuclear Fuel Complex and all luminaries could not predict what would happen if they started producing reactors in 5 years instead of 15 ? Ofcourse they would have known 15 yrs before the 5 year wala reactors came online that this problem would happen.

What was their contingency plan .. what if Sri MMS did not come to power and Sri Prakash Karat was Indian PM.

And secondly the sectors that you have mentioned are sectors that are not sanctioned in any manner. So planning or not planning in advance in those areas hardly makes a difference to them.

But that was not the case with the Nuclear Sector.

 
At 6:52 AM, Blogger Raju said...

yes, the Indian Govt is fiscally bankrupt and cannot spare funds for either Delhi Metro or a High-Speed Freight Corridor. Both of which had to be funded by the Japanese.

 
At 7:02 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>>>>>What was their contingency plan .. what if Sri MMS did not come to power and Sri Prakash Karat was Indian PM.

you tell me ... I ain't sucking on the straws of your strawman ... :)

 
At 7:08 AM, Blogger Raju said...

bas phir .. DAE had not contingency plan anyway. Sab ram bharose thaa !

Basic thing I want to prove here is that it was not DAE's idea to have this deal. And that is what opens the doors to speculation.

I am not saying this to irritate anybody. But my strong instincts are that in the medium-term future this deal shall bleed us badly in terms of tying up our strategic options to interfere in our neighbourhood from attack by western forces or western-inspired forces.

 
At 7:14 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>>>> And secondly the sectors that you have mentioned are sectors that are not sanctioned in any manner. So planning or not planning in advance in those areas hardly makes a difference to them.

>>>>>>>>>> But that was not the case with the Nuclear Sector.

Below is my take and not based on any inside info or anything ...

The story, as I read it, is that the civilian side (i.e., electricity generation) was the step child in DAE who were immersed in TerraBoom development ...

Folks ha long realized that Bhabha's 3-stage was a nice idea that would stay a pipe-dream in terms of making a dent on India's energy equation ... it was taught in textbooks and the story of the 3-stage was told to children at bedtime so they could dream about it ...

that was it ...

then the possibility of a deal came about ...

folks like AnilK initially reacted negatively to any cooperation with Khan Sahib because that is how they were raised to think ...

slowly, the idea of "separation" began to take hold and it wasn't so bad after all ... I followed all of AnilK's comments over the last 3-4 years and saw the slow change in his statements ...

you can consider that the germination of an idea or succumbing to MMS ...

but, once the idea of separation and *unlimited* civilian cooperation in both ractors and fuel started taking hold in people's minds, they could start to think *big* ...

the plan you see today is a result of this change in paradigm ...

there is no smooth function that can trace this back to 1998 ... there are severe discontinuities in the evolution ...

except of course, conspiratorial functions which reverse the arrow of time and entropy and condense all information into a nicely packaged "Theory" ...

take it FWIW ...

 
At 7:20 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>>> Basic thing I want to prove here is that it was not DAE's idea to have this deal. And that is what opens the doors to speculation.

of course, Boss ... the deal was the idea of Saran et al ... the FMO sold PMO on it ... they effed up by not selling it to DAE upfront ...

this was the first friction ... way back in 2005 ... but all that is history and not disputed at all ...

the part about "opening the door for speculation" is up to the speculator ...

just like beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ...

:)

 
At 7:25 AM, Blogger Raju said...

Saran .. a babu has ideas.

ha Alok jee sell me a bridge. babu spends his entire life learning how to curb and hide his 'ideas'. lol.

I am not concerned about the deal's effects on our strategic program. Such an anaemic program should not have any problems if a quart more of blood were taken away from it.

My fears are in different direction.

Another big fear was that Shri Advani in place of MMS G would also have done the same things as this Govt is doing. But now they have had to take a distinct stand so that is a positive.

 
At 7:33 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

another misleading "isharaa" ... from CRS Dude:

"Vina, why the rush to sign the deal? Even NYT says the same thing albeit for different reasons."

it is not just a "different reason", it is a "different POV" -- Khan's POV -- NPA's POV ...

if CRS had read the article, he would have noted that the argument for not signing is that NPA's did not get their full pound of flesh ...

so, is CRS saying that India should yield more?

of course not ... he's definitely not saying that ...

but, would you get that from the one-liner "isharaa" he posted?

 
At 7:42 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

> ha Alok jee sell me a bridge. babu spends his entire life learning how to curb and hide his 'ideas'. lol.

except at the top! ... the last couple of years of his career a Babu wants "legacy" much like Netas do ... else, he plans for an "extension" wherein he becomes so important to a process that he is kept on for another 2 years past retirement age ...

[of course Saran got that extension as you recall]

the worst fear of a Babu is to be forgotten ... to be a retired Babu playing Golf and hanging out at the Gymkhana club ...

Raju boss, as a fellow Njprie, I am sur you have seen a lot of Babus in top jobs of GOI ...

there is a sense of desperation that descends on a Babu when he is less than 12 months from retirement ...

YES, he actually starts coming up with IDEAS! ...

LOL, indeed ...

 
At 7:45 AM, Blogger Raju said...

>>the last couple of years of his career a Babu wants "legacy" much like Netas do ... else, he plans for an "extension" wherein he becomes so important to a process that he is kept on for another 2 years past retirement age ...



Alok jee .. you said it.

In the last 2 years a babu wants an extension. So he is the epitome of good behaviour. And he panders to his political masters. He can bend in any which way they ask him to.

aur yahi hua hain yahan par bhi. Let us not scapegoat some poor goat Saran.

 
At 7:52 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

ok, we can disagree on cause and effect ...

but yes, MMS and Saran had a resonance of ideas ...

you say MMS egged Saran and I can buy hat ... happy? I am ...

now, what about the Kabab mein haddi?

when did Mr. Rothschild enter the dance?

 
At 7:59 AM, Blogger Raju said...

well to satisfy your Rothschild cravings. i can say this.

A few months ago I saw one of the lesser known Rothschilds on Indian television being interviewed by a business channel. Her name was Lady Lynn Evelyn de Rothschild. I was noting her quiet confidence almost bordering on arrogance in her interview. She was in no way rude or anything but exuded an air of someone who was used to having her way and ultra confident on the future. When asked about what her future plans in India entry were.

She replied that 'we Rothschilds have a long history with India, we were here since the building of the railroads'.

When Acharya et al say that the Rothschilds involvement with EIC, no one beiieves but here it is from the horses or should we say mare's mouth.

She was in India to promote her agricultural venture. She was constantly saying, "you what we do at Rothschilds, we must do on a grand scale". ha

 
At 7:59 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

this sugriva fellow has been harping on this for a while now:

"... till date no one has enumerated what all technology will be transferred to us."

boss, "till date" starts on which date? ... I had given the Mother of all Enumerations on DF a long time ago ...

let's make a deal ...

I give the isharaa and you do the counting ...

go to this site: www.newark.com

search for all items tagged with "mil spec" ...

please come back and give us the score when you have finished the job of Enumeration ...

 
At 8:02 AM, Blogger Raju said...

In context of nuclear deal, I do not think there was any direct linkage proven to the Rothschilds but an international cabal of business interests behind the deal. A small coterie of western business elite.

Amar Singh had to go to US to be pushed to support the UPA. So it is obvious that it is certain interests in US that want to push the deal more desperately than their Indian counterparts.

 
At 8:03 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

Raju,

no one will deny that the Rothschilds hold a very big control on money ... they have funded wars not just for England but other countries as well ...

the point is about how specifically are they interfering in India's strategic thinking ...

if you say Rothschild control *everything*, fine ...

what can the SDRE do against Rothschild Parmatmaa onlee? ...

but, if ou claim specific instances, then you have to spit out what you are trying to say ...

[btw, as a corollary, if they control everything, then they control you and me also, so why worry, have curry ... ]

 
At 8:06 AM, Blogger Raju said...

As it is our ministers Chidambaram, Deora, Montek spend more time in US serving them than serving their misfortunate motherland.

 
At 8:07 AM, Blogger Raju said...

>> boss, "till date" starts on which date? ... I had given the Mother of all Enumerations on DF a long time ago ...

Alok boss, what all tech are we restricted by Wassenaar and similar agreements.

sugriva has asked a valid question. I had asked this question too many a time, no one answers it cleanly.

Probably the lack of phyzzics doods.

 
At 8:10 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>>>>> As it is our ministers Chidambaram, Deora, Montek spend more time in US serving them than serving their misfortunate motherland.

aren't they serving the motherland by going to Parmatmaa on behalf of SDRE and bringing back gifts?

:-)))

why fight the natural order of things as laid out by Raju Boss himself? ...

would you rather that they piss off the Parmatmaa?

then we will have Big Time Pralaya and we'd all be fooked by lightening bolts from the sky ...

on that note, I gotta take a break ... will continue later ... we've hogged Mav's space quite a bit ...

 
At 8:10 AM, Blogger Raju said...

they control everything outside India Alok jee .. not everything inside India yet.

And the term Rothschilds has now become an euphemism for western business and banking elite. Probably Rothschilds have a stake in various corporations with their 'old money' and accumulating interests. So in a sense they are connected, but physically they are too insignificant to be connected to all these investments.

we do not know if there are other arrangements they are heading, and by which they have proxy control over other stuff. It is not my area and I am not an expert on it.

 
At 8:11 AM, Blogger Raju said...

But that does not mean I will deny it if others point fingers at Rothschilds or anybody. I deny nothing unless proved otherwise.

 
At 8:14 AM, Blogger Raju said...

>> aren't they serving the motherland by going to Parmatmaa on behalf of SDRE and bringing back gifts?


Well that is their excuse ofcourse. Everyone goes to serve SDRE and everyone is working to benefit poor SDRE onlee.

Even the Evangelist is working tirelessly to protect the SDRE.

Yes, and sorry Mav for taking up your personal space sort out our shit ? bahut shukriya aur bahut sorry

 
At 10:12 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

Raju Boss,

This is too tempting:

>>>>> I deny nothing unless proved otherwise.

bleaj to broove thij to pee wraang:

Raju has an evil twin who lives on Mars and controls all banner-jees besides controlling the Rothschilds.

 
At 10:15 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

btw, has there been any word from Karat-e-Dude since SP saw the new clear light? ... one karate chop too many for the comrade, eh?

 
At 12:00 PM, Blogger dilbert said...

Alok_N:

"bleaj to broove thij to pee wraang:

Raju has an evil twin who lives on Mars and controls all banner-jees besides controlling the Rothschilds. "

Elementary, my dear Watson. The Rothschilds control everything in the known universe. Thus raju-bhai and other maha-patriots *cannot* do anything, even based on another planet, that is counter to Rothschild interests. In fact, it is astonishing that the Rothschilds / Bilderbergers / Skull-and_Bones have not reached out to their control panel and zapped this blog yet.

This is all sho shimple onlee, aise fundamentals par dhyan rakha kara na before refuting the patriots. In fact, I am now going to formulate a new ishaara for you anytime you feel tempted to disagree with them: Remember the Rothschilds. bas! akalmand ko ishaara kaafi.

 
At 9:45 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

folks,

acharya's prejusdiced worldview is on the web now ... no more isharaa, it is there in black and white ...

among various Indian classes, he fails to define this one:

Bajrangi: An anachronistic Indian living in the West but threatened by the windmills in his surroundings.

 
At 9:55 PM, Blogger Raju said...

>> then we will have Big Time Pralaya and we'd all be fooked by lightening bolts from the sky ...

Alok saar, I forgot to comment on this one. ha

One difference between us desis (who actually need to live in fear of being fooked by massa lightening bolts) and videsi desis (who need not fear from massa lightening bolts) is that us desis do not live in fear at all, neither of massa nor or anyone else. And that is how we wish to live in the future as well. And this entire struggle for sovereignty.

It is our manifest destiny that we shall inherit the kingdom of earth and the kingdom of heaven. Because we have been most oppressed people of the 19th and 20th century and thus the future belongs to us. Nothing can and should be allowed to come in the way of this manifest destiny.

 
At 10:00 PM, Blogger Raju said...

Raju has an evil twin who lives on Mars and controls all banner-jees besides controlling the Rothschilds.

common sense caveat shall apply Alok birader. People of this generation have been taught by science to disbelieve until proven otherwise.

I have on purpose designed myself to go in the opposite direction of those who live in the maya of kalyug.

I also know that you shall find all this too tempting, but I speak from the heart onlee.

 
At 10:11 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>>> One difference between us desis (who actually need to live in fear of being fooked by massa lightening bolts) and videsi desis

I was waiting for this Kindergarten argument to show up ...

play this card on your NRI buddy, Acharya ...

:)

 
At 10:15 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>>>>> common sense caveat shall apply Alok birader.

common sense is the sum total of one's prejudices which have been integrated into a whole by an ignorant mind ...

:)

 
At 10:21 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

all jokers return to ad hominen ... they can not debate without directly bringing in the person of the opponent into the debate rather than just the arguments of the opponent ...

^^^^^^
consider that "common sense" ...

:)

 
At 10:30 PM, Blogger Raju said...

>> I was waiting for this Kindergarten argument to show up ...

you are a pretty alert and aware man I must say.

& you know all the cards.

 
At 10:32 PM, Blogger Raju said...

>>>>>>>> common sense is the sum total of one's prejudices which have been integrated into a whole by an ignorant mind ...


how about if I say common sense is a constant and conscious effort to reduce the collective prejudice to transform oneself into a higher state.

kuch acha bhi to ho sakta hain boss. Why only think negatively ?

 
At 10:58 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>> Why only think negatively ?

I am just the messenger ... argue with the dude who said it first ...

common sense is the sum total of one's prejudices which have been integrated into a whole by an ignorant mind -- Albert Einstein.

 
At 11:01 PM, Blogger Raju said...

he was a great man no doubt. But great men need not always be correct.

Let us put it this way:

1. Question the great men.

2. Believe in the accounts of the poor and subdued man. Do not question him.

ofcourse this needs to be expanded to fit in all the variables but probably it can be made into a gist of what needs to be done.

 
At 11:05 PM, Blogger Raju said...

>>btw, has there been any word from Karat-e-Dude since SP saw the new clear light? ... one karate chop too many for the comrade, eh?

Samajwadi party supporting any deal shows the dubiousness of that deal. Weren't these the same guys who supported BJP in UP covertly. And then they tried to hitch on to UPA anti-communal bandwagon and then when snubbed by Sonia went to a 'third front' and grumbled from the outside. And at the first opportunity dumped the 'third front' and latched onto UPA after a visit to USA.

 
At 11:08 PM, Blogger Raju said...

Amar Singh has been treated to lot of dawa-daaru/daana-paani from US. And for a fat bloke like him he will need a lot of daana and afterwards lots of paani.

I wonder how much they have been paid off for this support by the *yet to be named* people in USA.

Probably 10 yrs from now Vir Sanghvi or Khushwant Singh or some other enterprising, bold (sic) editor in dilli circles will bring out the actual figures and cash that has changed hands in US.

 
At 11:10 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

all politicians are basically dorks ...

I like the deal because Babus are behind it ...

of course, Babus are mostly dorks too ...

so, there you have it ...

apply your common sense, worship Daridra Narayan, be happy, no worry, have curry ...

 
At 11:14 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

the only good thing the Rothschilds have done is to put the Asia Cp free of charge on ESPN360 ...

Hallowed be their name ...

Thine Kingdom come ...

Raju boss, you will appreciate that I have only 4 ours of nap time left before the toss ... good night.

:)

 
At 11:17 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

and yes, hail Munna F. Patel ...

:)

 
At 11:25 PM, Blogger Raju said...

>> I like the deal because Babus are behind it ...

which babus ?

>> Raju boss, you will appreciate that I have only 4 ours of nap time left before the toss ... good night.

don't bother it's all fixed, else MunnaF would have been playing. g'nite

 
At 12:07 AM, Blogger Anand K said...

Isolated and un-coordinated small folk trying to "fight" the real and imagined Leviathans of the world. They have written mega-volumes on this, you know.
I have hung out, nah... been involved, long enough with the LaRouche followers (for reasons other than political onlee!) and the Desi "No political party for cool ol' moi" types to see why. But with all respect, I am pretty sure the IshaarAsuras, Great Shaman and "Run! Rothschillllddddddddddddddddds!" types of DF even qualify to be put into that category. Sad!

-Anand K

 
At 12:17 AM, Blogger Raju said...

why can't folks view people outside of any 'category' prism. Is it too straining on the imagination to come up constantly and review our understanding on human beings.

I think by not doing so, we lead ourselves and others around us to stasis. My thoughts on this matter or IOW just small words from a small man.

btw this duangkomon character seems to have jumbed out from this neck of the woods. heehee

 
At 12:19 AM, Blogger Raju said...

Duangkomon dude fires away from his cover of anonymity.

Ramana and Acharya...How about NRI or PIO elites outside India who look upon India as only a Hindu nation as a part of their Hindu identity and nothing more? They should also be considered as part of the elite landscape trying to shape the destiny of India.

 
At 12:34 AM, Blogger Anand K said...

Way to go Duangkomon....
I dunno if you know this (or even if you are reading this blog) but questions on these lines were asked when resident Soshial Injineers first conjured up these fundae.
Why, Mav's take on such NRI/PIO elites was what earned him this sh1tstorm on his doorstep. There was a post called "Declining Power of the US NRI", made aeons ago, where you first had so many anonymouses (sic) frothing all over. I guess these types have delusions of doing a Syed Qutub on the rest of us. Kahan fr1ggin' Syed Qutub (vis-a-vis the Arab world) aur Kahan IT-Vity DOO (vis-a-vis fr1ggin' INDIA)?

And it's not just in DF/I-F, you know....

 
At 1:17 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

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At 1:18 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

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At 1:25 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

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At 1:29 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Its nobody's claim that nuke power is a panacea to India's current or even medium term energy requirements .

However as i have posted before , even 40 GW of nuke power makes a huge difference to our industrial requirements , as it provides relatively cheap and definitely firm power. For instance TAPP-4 has managed more than 350 days of continuous operation.

If fuel is available you can sustain 75-80 per cent PLFs easily.

the impact of 40 GW of nuke power is much more than 40 GW of wind power. for the simple reason that it is generation and availability that counts.



Today a school of thought has emerged which says, "let's distribute wind farms in such a way , that at least one or the other generates and then we'll simply "wheel" the power to wherever its required".


Now this proposition is nothing short of a scam.

1. the amount wind capacity that you will need for this hare brained scheme is far in excess of the number of windy sites that are available.

2. The energy and material requirements for the kind of national grid that we are attempting ( we can already transfer 18 GW inter-regionally) is gargantuan. Now just imagine this notional national grid that these wind proponents want . And you can see why its unviable.

3. Not to mention the reactive power requirements and redundancy that would be required for the safe operation of thisgrid.

Bottomline is people don't understand the concept of base-load and firm power.

Thats' why they make uninformed statements about renewables being an alternative to nuke power.

 
At 1:42 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Renewables makes great sense for decentralised needs and can make sense in small localized grids.

unfortunately the prevailing mantra under the auspices of RGGVY is to grid connect everybody. Now this idea is a patently flawed one.

Why the hell would anybody want to waste national resources on trying to provide "last mile connectivity" when you know its neither feasible nor achievable in any realistic timeframe?

half of your villages are not even "electrified" forget about "energised" .

For those who have come late ..

1. Electrified means "Khambha hai".

2. Energised means "khambe mein bijlee hai".

Sarkarispeak onlee.


you must look at distributed generation in combined cycles and hybridised formats and this is where renewables make sense.



Any notional "everybody is grid connected and happy" will not break even in net energy usage and monetary terms even in a thousand years.

But no, "we must compete with china, we must become the next United States, we are an emerging superpower onlee, I went to B-school and learnt the latest yuppie economics as soon as I could".


For the record neither the U.S nor china have any national grid to speak of. they have only regional grids , with maybe a few DC and very few AC lines inter-connecting some of them. they are of course trying to move in the same direction as us now. However we have stolen a march in this area and are set to be able to transfer 45 GW inter-regionally by 2012.

the problem today is , there are people who think that "if I can get the pricing for soap right , by extension I should be able to comment efficaciously on the energy required to make that cake of soap as well".

 
At 1:44 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Supercritical tech has allowed us to breach that 40 per cent efficiency barrier. New plants in the 43-47 per cent range are already coming online. (coal) Heat rates are also increasing.


Reactor tech is also embracing supercritical..


here's dear old wikipedia on the same..



Supercritical water reactor (SCWR) is a Generation IV reactor concept that uses supercritical water as the working fluid. SCWRs are basically LWRs operating at higher pressure and temperatures with a direct, once-through cycle. As most commonly envisioned, it would operate on a direct cycle, much like a BWR, but since it uses supercritical water (not to be confused with critical mass) as the working fluid, would have only one phase present, like the PWR. It could operate at much higher temperatures and pressure than both current PWRs and BWRs.

Supercritical water-cooled reactors (SCWRs) are promising advanced nuclear systems because of their high thermal efficiency (i.e., about 45% vs. about 33% efficiency for current light water reactors (LWR) and considerable plant simplification.

A key issue in natural circulation is constituted by the stability of the flow mainly when two phase conditions are concerned and when the feedback with neutron kinetics is possible.

The main mission of the SCWR is generation of low-cost electricity. It is built upon two proven technologies, LWRs, which are the most commonly deployed power generating reactors in the world, and supercritical fossil fuel fired boilers, a large number of which are also in use around the world. The SCWR concept is being investigated by 32 organizations in 13 countries.

 
At 5:15 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

Raju, Anand K,

dunno who duangkoman is ... but I made a similar point ...

basically, from where I sit, I am the only cool Dude, and everyone else is an Elite f some flavor ...

those who have nothing to be elitist about, are the Common Elites ...

that analysis will get Wah-Wah from Bajrangis but no one else ...

---------------

meanwhile, Could Mr. Rothschild please turn-off this Jayasuriya Dude?

--------------

 
At 5:28 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>> Bottomline is people don't understand the concept of base-load and firm power.

Hi D4C,

I have noticed that non-scientific folks are able to get this concept if they draw an analogy with rainfall ...

if you look at the average rainfall for a region versus the *average need* of the region, everything seems fine ...

then you throw in floods and droughts ... they get the idea quickly ...

btw, as I recall, India has 3 or 4 grids that were in the process of being integrated ... is that happening? ... also, there was a new EW transmission line being built ... are these projects on track?

 
At 6:44 AM, Blogger GinC said...

>>>>if you look at the average rainfall for a region versus the *average need* of the region, everything seems fine ...>>>

My father, a surveyor (and the best math teacher for me, in my life) used to give an example:

A surveyor wanted to cross a river with his family which included kids of all heights. He measured depth of the river at various distances, took an average, and saw it was less than average height of all the kids, and proceeded to cross the river....

And then he started checking and rechecking the calculation when some of the kids started drawning ... :)

 
At 6:48 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Inter-regional load transfer of about 18 GW has been achieved .
last time I checked
Ranchi-raipur and Rourkela -raipur (EW)

progressing well. Most inter-regional lines are doing okay. its the intra-state grids which are in dire need of upgradation.


new substation coming up in S. Tamil Nadu to evac power from KKNP coming up as well.

However,Only the southern part of the country continues to be somewhat less connected with the rest of the country.

I like your analogy about the rainfall .. will use it sometime.

 
At 7:02 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

btw, MegaBC Darpok-jee has been careful not to post after being slapped around ...

good to see that Banner-jees are capable of learning ...

:)

 
At 7:08 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

He He :)

 
At 7:37 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

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At 7:38 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

oh by the way here's the ultimate Ishara machine called MEDUSA..

Check it out..

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/07/the-microwave-s.html

 
At 8:35 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

hmm ... we got fooled ... the Rothschild's secret weapon was this Mendis Dude ...

but then our batsmen played him stupidly ... :(

 
At 12:18 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Mav,

I wondered what happened to you. You dropped off BRF and nobody even said anything. Shiv said you came back as Vijay J. I wish I had known that also.

I enjoy reading your blog.

TSJ

 
At 1:54 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Howdy, TSJ ... welcome to these here parts ...

... where the clear stream of treason has lost its way among the dearly departed denizens of dumb forum ...

come join the tome of the grave and the band of the free ...

give us your banned, your trolled, your disgusted ...

let a thousand bloomers flower ...

bring us all the news that is fake to print ...

learn some isharaas if you plan to survive ...

don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters ...

you don't need a weatherman to tell you there's a wind blowin' ...

git down and write something ... even Kgoan will come out of his hibernation in the outback and post a response ...

:)

 
At 2:49 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Hi alok_n

Thanks for the welcome. I really mean that. I checked your blog out. You need to post some of your stuff there. I know I will read it.

To everyone else, please relax, I have no intention of bugging anybody here. Just lurking. :-)

 
At 3:50 PM, Blogger dilbert said...

Wow!!! Even TSJ is here now? Verily I say, the circle is complete!

Hey, TS, glad to see you here. Come esta?!!

I checked your blog out.

Huh? Alok_N has a blog? Alok bhai, you've been holding out on us? Shame on you! Quick, tell us your blog URL so we can join up and pollute your e-space too, just as we've been doing to poor Mav.

Alok, I've been thinking about something you posted recently (rough transcript follows):

I never used to believe in this thing called "Hindu fundamentalism" until I saw what happended on BRF. Now I believe.

You know, you have a point. You and Mav and others (like Anand K) have opened my eyes too. I hear you. (And don't you dare beat me up with accusations of mixed metaphors like "opened eyes" and "I hear you". You are above that kind of crap. :) :) ).

 
At 4:01 PM, Blogger dilbert said...

Anand_K:

Yor analogy of these uber-patriot rakshaks and Syed Qutb was right on! It's clear enough what is happening -- there is a bunch of hardline NRIs/PIOs who have decided to co-opt/take over this idea of what it means to be Indian, and label anyone else as a traitor/sellout.

I took a quick look at Acharya's slide presentation http://www.slideshare.net/vepa/indian-elite-research
. FOr those who don't have the patience to wade through the whole thing, let me summarise:

Indians (including emigres and expatriates) belong to one of several categories:

1. Traditional India (this includes, obviously, Acharya himself, and any like-minded fellow-travellers who view the world as he does) and

2. Other low-life traitor/sellouts (deracinated Indian elite, Macaulay-ized minds, makaka-ized minds and islamized minds). That's most of the shmucks on this blog who don't agree with Acharya.

Yes, Syed Qutb lives!!!

 
At 6:17 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Dilbert,

I dont have a blog. Yet.

We all automatically get a page by registering. Click on your own name and you will see your page.

 
At 6:23 PM, Blogger kgoan said...

>> To everyone else, please relax, I have no intention of bugging anybody here.

eh? What?

Dude, if yer not going to entertain us, then what's the point of being here then?

 
At 6:36 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

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At 6:40 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

yeah these guys don't realize that they sound exactly like Islamists and EJs .

while discussing Islamists and EJs is essential , one must be careful not to generalize these things to every single adherent of a given semitic faith.

Religion doesn't play that big a role in a lay person's life on a day to day basis. the concerns on a day to day basis are pretty much the same for most of the world's population , irrespective of their religious denomination.
people don't turn to page number so and so of some holy book and then plan their agenda for the rest of the day. there are many objectionable things written in many a holy book, but i betcha most poor guys who can't read "classical" languages anyway don't really have these things in the forefront of their mind while going about daily business.


on the other hand if you meet a person from the abrahamic faiths and tell him "all that you have believed in thus far is crap etc etc"..
you ain't helping matters one bit.. All that is going to happen is that this person is going to withdraw further into a shell. you are basically strengthening the hand of the Islamist here.

And besides, this is not the Hindu way either .


The Hindu way includes reaching out by agreeing on the lowest common denominator called Humanity and helping other people.



Hinduism did not survive the onslaught of christianity and Islam because of some "militaristic defenders somewhere".

It survived because it evolved and bhaktism et al stressed on social work and devotion to a personal god. A two pronged strategy was adopted..


1. Showing that the essence of Hinduism was a form of unadulterated monism that was unsurpassed in its depth.

2. Social reform based on outreach to marginalised sections and creation of community services etc.


These guys would do well to remember that Shivaji never said that "x religion" is crap and tried to exterminate it . He co-opted where possible, negotiated when necessary and resorted to warfare when imperative.


Today Bharatvarsh is the most united and strongest that it has been in ages. It is important to be confident and move ahead on the path of social progress combining the best of whatever has been brought by various "guests" ad our own age old wisdom. India is after all an experiment and its all about making the best of whatever we have.


People would also do well to remember that
all those who try to hang on to power on the basis of some "hate agenda" ultimately turn on their own people sooner than later.


A case in point is the Shiv Sena. They started with "Madrasis" (Tamils) then they moved on to Muslims in the intervening period, finally having sensed that their dirigiste ideology was faltering they turned their attention to Hindu Biharis.


Funnily enough I did not see a single thread on DF discussing this issue at any length. People would do well to remember that the next time the Shiv Sena raises the issue of Hindu Smita no Hindu Bihari is going to support them.


This is precisely how Hindu unity has faltered through the ages. Because beyond the Hindu rhetoric there are always regional groupings that have tried to dominate the direction India will take . this is precisely where the marathas had faltered and this is precisely why the "hindu Pad padshahi" did not happen .

the greatest danger that I see today is that certain communities which are more "prosperous" than the rest and have a big overseas presence are trying to dominate the direction India will take. This is a patently dangerous development and will be taken note of by others thereby influencing voting patterns.

 
At 6:47 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

these groupings pretty much want India to align itself with the U.S so that their own hand as an NRI is strengthened back in L.A, New York or wherever they live .

Also they very conspicuously choose to remain silent on the issue of EJs while echoing American rhetoric on Islam and the war on terror.

Its quite evident what the agenda is here and what it is going to lead to.


India's foreign policy now has an additional constraint called "NRI rakshak forum".

 
At 7:27 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

I would say in that sense, even though India Forum espouses a number of things I don't agree with, it is much more more honest than the scam ridden DF.

 
At 7:27 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

or so it seems...

 
At 7:27 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Herr Doktor MegaBC is losing it completely ... Darpok-jees see other darpoks in shadows ... :)

SaiK wrote:
----------------------

Singha is the right choice.. he is a terrific thinker and a damn good poster (inglicks, theorist etc.). I may try to inject some organics, if any should come by the way of thoughts. Beyond that, its all heroics from the doctors.
-------------------------

By "doctors" he means PhDs ... this is clear to any reasonable person ... but Herr Darpok megaBC is paranoid ...

he says:

-------------------------

SaiK you may well be trying to bait me. This is a dead end process. I will merely make a public note of the times when you are baiting, and give you your warnings when you bait someone else. You publicly admitted baiting JCage do there is a history here.

Please stop.

-------------------------

mav, it is not fair to not provide a ROTFL emoticon ...

such brilliant moments of Banner-jee silliness need due recognition ...

LOL.

 
At 7:48 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Ha Ha haha

 
At 8:43 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

D4C,

jo Blog mein Gaa*du, woh DF main bhi Gaa*du ...

:)

[I wrote that email, I wrote that email ... I am choo*iya, I am choo*iya ... LOL]

 
At 9:13 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 9:14 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Alok Bhai, when will people realize that a Bar (this blog) is a much more interesting proposition than a "chai biskoot" place called DF ?


the ultimate slap on the face of islamists will be when people start flocking to the bar..

 
At 9:24 PM, Blogger Raju said...

these groupings pretty much want India to align itself with the U.S so that their own hand as an NRI is strengthened back in L.A, New York or wherever they live .

Also they very conspicuously choose to remain silent on the issue of EJs while echoing American rhetoric on Islam and the war on terror.


this phenomenon is what we are seeing in the Nuke poll.

 
At 9:26 PM, Blogger Raju said...

Especially the first para.

 
At 9:40 PM, Blogger Raju said...

Bade writes:

>>>>>>>>> I know from anecdotal experience in physics at least, that many Indians will tell you in private that unless you are a jew or a wasp (in that order) you are not going to have a fat chance of even putting your foot in the door. Any Indian from the engg and management streams will laugh at you, simply because their perceptions are based on what they see in their fields. But, it does not mean that there is no hiring bias in physics.

Is this true Alok miyan ?

 
At 9:45 PM, Blogger Raju said...

does anybody here remember how during the height of the Iraq war and Saddam Hussain's hanging et al BRF was busy discussing Islamism and Islamist Extremism.

Not a word spoken on American Imperialism or American Unilateralism. All that was couched in a very innocuous sounding thread called "US and the World" were one was initially supposed to sing paens to US 'achievements'.

 
At 9:47 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Arrey Raju Bhai ,

while you are absolutely right that some of the pro-dealers clearly approach the issue from this angle , that in itself doesn't qualify as an excuse to diss the nuke deal.

Often divergent people have convergent interest .. ;) . examine the nuke deal on its merits and see it not as a bilateral agreement but as the first of a series of bilaterals with the French , Russians , Chinese , Japanese etc...

 
At 10:06 PM, Blogger Raju said...

Let us see.

 
At 10:10 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

fair enough

 
At 10:21 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>> Is this true Alok miyan ?

Is the Pope Catholic?

fainess is in the eyes of the advantage-holder ...

show me one service/profession/ line of work where hiring is "fair" ... in India or in Videsh ...

actually in India various quota committees have made it *very* fair, no?

:)

[In KhanLand, imagine a Desi Bhai on a hiring committee and a Mard from TSP in the applicant pool ... enough said ... :) ]

 
At 10:32 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

the only reason why so many fools abound on various committees and fora is because they are superlative when it comes to "rising through the ranks of Guboing" ...

 
At 11:31 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

You know , the unmoderated blog comment space is a much better idea than these forums. these forums are full of cliques , "online friends" , " offline buddies" etc.

There are chaps who post pretty derogatory and insulting stuff , but you gloss over it because "they either bring "contacts" or "can post hitherto unseen JPegs etc" or are simply entrenched in the space that your forum deals with, not to mention that they might actually be contributing monetarily to your forum.


In fact the forum is one of the worst aspects of the internet and does nothing for the democratization of the same. Because it involves money and cliques. Blogs on the other hand do not require investment and can be more or less kept free of interference by "investors".

why blame Df onlee, the double standards are palpable on all such fora. especially the white man forums. Full of dudes from the Western hemisphere peddling ignorant opinions about "how the world, should go about it, etc etc". these guys post pretty inflammatory stuff but your riposte is liable to being moderated "by a moderator carrying Kipling's burden"..

Unfortunately even on Df you have some of these "white experts" like the chap who keeps promoting Euro trash as the best purchase option for India and some others as well.

 
At 11:48 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

By the way the U.S is moving ahead on renewables in a big way .

they have jumped to second spot , just behind Germany in the wind sweepstakes.
the whole mid-west is being seen as fair game.


Here are some tidbits from GWEC

The top five countries in terms of installed capacity are
Germany (22.3 GW), the US (16.8 GW), Spain (15.1 GW),
India (8 GW) and China (6.1 GW). In terms of economic
value, the global wind market in 2007 was worth about
25bn EUR or 37bn US$ in new generating equipment.





The US reported a record 5,244 MW installed in 2007,
more than double the 2006 figure, accounting for about
30% of the country’s new power-production capacity in
2007. Overall US wind power generating capacity grew by
45% in 2007, with total installed capacity now standing at
16.8 GW.





In 2007, 34 US states were producing electricity with wind
power. The states with the most cumulative installed wind
power capacity are: Texas (4,356 MW), California (2,439
MW), Minnesota (1,299 MW), Iowa (1,273 MW) and
Washington (1,163 MW).


On the other hand even though no new nuke plants were constructed in the U.S in the last 30 years , plant refurbishments and up-rating have increased nuke capacity in the U.S by over 10 per cent.

 
At 1:07 AM, Blogger Anand K said...

Anybody catch the latest lovefest in the Nuke poll thread? Here are a few ishaaras from moi side anyway...

1. reactor != unit
2. 1996
3. Nuclear generation vs capacity (this is what N3 was talking about in "coming of age"
4. nuke unit uprating
5. NRC License Raj and 2005 Energy Act
6. fixed and variable O & M costs and fuel costs
7. Load profiles of US vs India and

Regards,
-Anand K

 
At 1:23 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Anand bhai,
Could your Ishaaras be any more subtle .. :)

 
At 1:27 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

In the newer builds (Nuke plants) O&M costs have stabilised to around 20 per cent of the LCOE. best practices are very much being adopted the world over.

 
At 2:29 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 2:30 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

the talibunnies have killed one of our defence attaches.. Three other Indian nationals have died in this blast as well.


However the majority of the victims will no doubt be Muslim afghans. so as you can see hate mongering Islamists will turn on their own people sooner than later...

some islamist jerks will no doubt spin this as a "necessity" in their war , but I bet the local population which has suffered won't buy that bullshit.

 
At 3:10 AM, Blogger Anand K said...

Damn.
This raises the stakes... and our perimeter security and personal security requirements. I wonder what those punks anticipated after planning the act; increased deployment of Indian security forces (with the usual slippery-slope descents and increased frictions) or a (very unlikely) decision to pull out?
BTW, our security personnel deployment profile translates only to physical security AFAIK; the abductions and killing of Indian workers just stepped the numbers/changed SOPs a little bit. But will acts like these lead to deployment of *visible* investigation/direct action units?

BTW, Defense Attaches come at Brigadier levels? Is there any protocol or equal-equal when it comes to such postings. I thought they are usually Lft Cols or Colonels... I mean, this is a starred brass!

-Anand K

 
At 3:49 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Damn.
This raises the stakes... and our perimeter security and personal security requirements. I wonder what those punks anticipated after planning the act; increased deployment of Indian security forces (with the usual slippery-slope descents and increased frictions) or a (very unlikely) decision to pull out?


Yeah, the second part is very very unlikely. they know it.

looking at the first part , Even if we step up deployment by some 5 times of what it is now , the slope wouldn't get that slippery because in all probability we won't be deploying those direct action units, but only step up physical security through ITBP or even CISF.



This act was probably directed at eliminating some key people in the embassy and also disrupting embassy work for a while - such as issuing visas to Afghans etc. Besides the usual visibility issue and dissuading Afghans etc.

 
At 4:44 AM, Blogger Anand K said...

Hi D4C,

I see you but I dunno how far we can go in perimeter/physical security.... with Unkil calling the shots in Afghanland and all. I mean, do we put our brothers from Bihar on the entire stretch of *urban* road from the residence/lodgings to the embassy? Do we sent out *our own men* company to sanitize/guard the entire route whenever a top official goes on some visit/meeting... especially in cities? The last time we requested that, in Sweden 1985(?), their security officers had a fit. But of course when Mr. Cuban Cigar came visiting we had the SS peeking down every drain access from Roshnara to Badarpur Crossing and put their men on the ground.
Methinks increased intelligence presence itself might cause frictions with Sam Bahadur and Johnny English. {Not that it would (or should) stop what we think must ... and could be done, but still.... “just wonderfying onlee” as we used to say in school. ;) } I dunno how cozy the existing arrangement is and don't even dare to guess our capabilities in tapping into Western comms (diplomatic cipher as well as field level military comms). About 40 something years ago we passed on some “serendipitous” SIGNIT to the Syrians and a celebrated Mossad agent got hanged in the Damascus public square. Pakis shut down our Karachi embassy (IIRC) after the riots there, alleging that our spooks were using diplomatic cover and sanctity to fan the flames. More recently the Chinese embassy was hit by US bombs in an apparent “mishap”. You know what theories are abound on that thingie.... I wonder if Unkil-Aunty, or Ivan for that matter, let us increase our structure up there.

And there's another thing too.... just wonderfying again: our now huge Intel corps spot an ex-Taliban (now "moderate Taliban" vis-a-vis US only) secretly protected by ex-Delta Blackwater spooks, deep inside US safe zones. This gent is a Paki lackey, used to be on the forefront of anti-India ops in the Najibullah-Taliban years and upset our apple cart one too many a time. What do we do? I mean, it would be something like John Rambo's got Abu Jahanna in his Barret M82 scope but the latter's in bed with Col Trautman... attempting re entry. :P

-Anand K

 
At 5:05 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Anand bhai,
Investigative agencies would definitely need Khan support for locating the culprits. But how much headway they'll make depends on what khan wants...


The observation about mellowed down talibunnie is very appropriate. there's no single Taliban out there anymore. there are various tribals dealing at various levels with khan.

For instance it could be that Whenever they need some additional cash, they show up somewhere , launch a few RPGs and let Khan decide. Khan decides whether its better to tolerate these guys or send in a predator or two to ruin their happiness..


Khan is essentially in the same situation that the soviets were in. Khan has dudes patrolling cities in flak jackets, occasionally sends out a howitzer or two to pound some village on the outskirts , but mostly stays clear of dangerous riffraff in the upper reaches. Negotiates or bombs the shit out of them , depending on their utility and the depth of the caves.

 
At 6:10 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi Raju,

Can you please back this up by a public statement that AK made?

"Alok bhai, if AnilK was in such desperate need to U and Pu then why did he not approach the PM and why vice-versa ? he had to be literally arm-twisted by PMO to accept the deal."

 
At 6:19 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi TSJ,

Welcome aboard, nice to see you again.

This blog strictly me talking - with no strings, no voice overs - nothing - its all me.

This is not like my time at BR. I speak for myself only.

The only reason I am raising hell here is that the BR forum people hurt *my* feelings by speaking ill of people I hold in high respect and because their behaviour degraded the forum I was once a part of.

I am very angry that such hostility towards civilian authority figures on the forum was not properly moderated by the admins and that attempts were made by a member of the Admin team to push such senseless views into the mouths of leading military authorities in India. I think that kind of talk smacks of an attempt to embarass key military leaders in India.

I am more than happy to ignore things but this is really upsetting.

 
At 6:30 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi Ducking For Cover,

The tragic loss of life in the embassy in Kabul underscores the extremely fragile state of things inside Afghanistan.

That is all I want to say right now.

 
At 6:57 AM, Blogger maverick said...

TSJ,

I am getting questions about whether "Hon. Webmaster" has "crossed over" to your side.

Are you in a position to clarify this issue?

Thanks

 
At 8:19 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

DF is full of experts who can cut&paste reports from Brookings (LOL) about how much it costs the Khan to make nuke power ...

all these "lifetime" costs are loaded with political issues ...

for example, nuke power industry is supposed to account for every atom of waste that it generates while th coal power industry says bye-bye to its waste into the atmosphere ...

on planet earth today, Carbon is a more worrisome element than Plutonium ...

-----------------------------

by the way, didn't India agree to build a special reprocessing unit just to reprocess the imported LEU discharge from imported LWRs?

at least that is what I recall ...

if so, then why does NRao claim the opposite on a daily basis?

 
At 8:46 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

It is hardly interesting to contrast the economies of a closed-fuel cycle located in India with an open cycle located in the US ...

The US nuke power suffers from not only regulatory overload but also the vagaries of the marketplace ...

the cheapest plant to set up and tear down is a gas-fired power plant ... they have come up all over California ...

The advantages are several:

1. Almost zero waste.

2. Near instant turn-on and turn-off capability.

The thing is that in nuke power, most of the cost s up-front in building the darned thing and then in the end, for fuel disposal and/or decommissioning ... while it is true that fuel disposal gets government subsidized rates, it is still a part of the "lifetime" calculation (over 30 years) ...

In gas power, most of the cost is in the fuel itself (unlike nuke) ... in that sense, the power plant can, on almost a *daily* basis, compare the cost of purchasing gas versus the gain in selling electricity ... this is so because with a flick of a switch, the gas power dude can turn off his plant and go for a vacation ... then when there is a shortage, he can come back and gouge the hell out of consumers ...

the answer is simple (an it is practiced in India) ...

rather than regulate just the nuke industry, regulate the electricity market ...

I know, I know ... the libertarians are groaning ...

if you don't see my point, refer to the electricity crisis of california at the turn of the millenium ...

cost me a pretty penny and cost Governor Davis his job :)

 
At 9:28 AM, Blogger dilbert said...

Anand_K:

About 40 something years ago we passed on some “serendipitous” SIGNIT to the Syrians and a celebrated Mossad agent got hanged in the Damascus public square.

Actually, that's not how it happened. We didn't have any SIGINT to pass on. The fellow in question (the Mossad dude) happened to have an apartment right across the street from the Indian embassy in Damascus. When he was using his hidden radio transmitter to send signals to Tel Aviv, he unwittingly screwed up the Indian Embassy's radio reception. When the embassy couldn't figure out why the hell their communications were being disrupted, they complained to the Syrian govt. The Syrians started investigating; from that moment on, the Mossad dude's fate was sealed.

As far as Afghanistan is concerned, there is a definite limit to the number of troops we can have on the ground there. This limit is influenced by two things:

1. The extent to which the troops can defend what they are sent to defend, without themselves being kidnapped/killed; and

2. The extent to which they can operate independently of NATO forces.

I do not think India can just blindly rush to send in more troops, for both those reasons. In fact, it may not be able to send in any more troops than it has now.

 
At 9:34 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

hmmm ... MegaBC Darpok=jee has asked Webmaster-jee to write an article for SRR on FizzleBum ... wow! cool!

Enqyoob, if you read this occasionally ... pleaj to note that the mempers of this Plog are very keen and willing to be Anonymous-jee Beer Reviewer-jees ...

nah ... we'll be delighted to be of service ... beer review is our middle name ...

 
At 1:03 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi,

I think there is considerable fear as to what an atmosphere of free nuclear commerce between India and the US will do to the regulatory structure. This fear exists in the US and in India.

In the US, people think that India will exploit this to make bombs. In India, some people think this means the US will force India to give up its nuclear program.

A separation plan - whether it is "strategic" v/s "civilian" or "imported" v/s "domestic" - should assuage the fears on both sides.

 
At 2:46 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear TSJ,

This constitutes completely idle musings

By conducting direct personal attacks on the DAE and the PMO and by making embarassing suggestions that sections of the military or the research and development establishment back his peculiar perspective - "Hon. Webmaster" who gave us the Agni webpage has lost any claim to credibility as a serious Indian defence expert. It is hard to imagine how any responsible Indian reader will take him seriously at this point.

Currently his interests in India's defence capabilities do not appear to extend beyond those of the garden variety non-proliferation expert. Additionally, he seems to share the NP community's oddly negative view of India's technical abilities on this front.

He is solidly convinced that he knows how to make a Hydrogen bomb or more correctly how India's scientists failed to make one. He is also convinced that India's development of fast breeders is directly linked to a weapons program. In general, he seems to deeply inhale everything remotely technical the NP community spits out.

Given the deeply personal sense of hostility he espouses towards the Indian scientist he feels have "failed" - his rise to NPA stardom seems ... somewhat natural at this point.

I imagine that at the rate he is currently going, the Hon. Webmaster would give the M. V. Ramana, Zia Mian etc... of the world, a run for their money.

**end of idle musings**

 
At 7:40 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Hi Mav,

>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is considerable fear as to what an atmosphere of free nuclear commerce between India and the US will do to the regulatory structure.

One thing it will surely do would be to swell the number of IAEA Inspector Babus ...

Lots of new job openings in the clueless brigade ...

 
At 7:46 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

RajRang dude is back to Guess-e-Problem-e-Technical ...

>>>>>>>>> This MAY (I don't for sure I am only guessing) be the crucial flaw in AK's assumptions/projections (with deep respects to AK). If this assumption is corrected then India will have 1200 GW from non-nuclear and this deal will not be needed.

the Dude has potential ... he is right on track in Education-e-DF ... pretty soon he will be designing nuke weapons in a Sheet-e-Excel ... :)

I mean seriously, can folks be so clueless to think that they can maro some tukka-baazi and find *flaws* in the analysis of the Head of DAE who probably had a staff of a dozen people work on his talk? ... I suppose so ... and that too from folks who admit that they are mostly ignorant ...

Wah!

DF ... where tomorrow comes before yesterday is over ...

 
At 7:51 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 7:52 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

the quick start up feature of gas turbines especially aeroderivatives makes them a good choice for peak load operations.

However gas has to be available and unless KG delta fires up , I don't really see this happening ....

 
At 7:57 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080706/D91O8E100.html


Khan is pulling concentrated nat uranium out of Iraq

 
At 8:58 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Hi Mav,

If you are refering to arun_s, then I don't think he is a NPA. I think he is for India having nukes. It's just that the sitauation is not progrssing to arun_s's satisfaction. Therefore, he subjects India's nuclear efforts and its leadership to his vituperative postings.

I think this rubs shiv and ramana raw(no pun intended) but they are afraid to do anything about it. So the result is that they have a rogue Admin who insults anybody and everybody who does not measure up to the metrics in his beautiful mind. He has developed a personality psychosis on the forum and needs a vacation but no one will do the needful. :-> It is revenge of a sort, I guess. TSJ

 
At 9:16 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 9:24 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

what India really needs is some good gas turbines.

India's Achilles heel continues to be propulsion tech. Once you have a decent power plant you can build just about anything around it .


GTRE needs to tie up with somebody pretty darn quick . they have come up with the Kaveri marine though....

 
At 10:27 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 10:50 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Bhai log,
Islamists are going to eat each other in the coming years. the biggest loser whether he realizes it or not in this whole affair will be the poor muslim.

Maybe its too late to educate this guy but we can still get his son to go to school. that's what poor people regardless of their creed need - schools , the biggest force multiplier possible.


Also, Imagine a country where every dude has access to computers ( school could be via remote access) , irrespective of whether he is in a village or in Dilli. that's the kind of competition we are talking about. we'll make the rest of the world look like a pussy. of course all kind of problems will accompany this process , but if done properly the gains will outweigh the downsides.


However before this happens we need energy solutions and that is where our best minds must focus their energies.

 
At 10:55 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

oh by the way , there won't be just one new reprocessing facility . there will be quite a few. the private sector will be charged an import duty on uraaanium to finance at least one of these facilites.

 
At 11:31 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

oh by the way here's a funny article from carlo Kopp's site


This paper demonstrates that the United Kingdom's Royal Air Force could have significantly more usable capability if it were to terminate the remaining intended production of the Eurofighter Typhoon and scrap Typhoons already purchased (a total of 232), replacing them with an F-16 force structure with combined procurement and operating costs that had the same discounted cash flow. The conclusions are very robust across a wide range of exchange rates, even when all intended 232 Typhoons are first purchased and then scrapped. A transparent methodology for calculating the discounted cash flow is provided. A simple, easy to duplicate campaign model for comparing the capability of the Typhoon Air Force with alternative F-16 based forces is described. The paper demonstrates that the assumptions underpinning this model are strongly favourable to the Typhoon force structure. The paper recommends that the Royal Air Force, and by implication other Air Forces unfortunate enough to have purchased the Typhoon, terminate production of the Typhoon, scrap those aircraft that have already been purchased or that the procurement of cannot be cancelled, and replace them with the more capable F-16 force structure. It recommends that a similar analysis be conducted for the troubled Joint Strike Fighter program in order to avoid engaging in an expensive form of unilateral disarmament.


http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2008-05.html

 
At 12:17 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

The best thing about the Hindu people today is that we don't have any "doctrinaire" disputes anymore.

All spiritual discourse and disagreement between various sects is very much in :

Mode 1. agree to disagree mode
Mode 2. or , hey we are both right.

on the other hand if you look at the semitic faiths , they are pretty much steeped in disagreements about:

1. where did we come from?
2. what is the nature of interpretation?
3. what is the validity of references ?
4. what kind of theological citation is acceptable?


Hindus have stolen a March people . Primarily on account of:

1. we are eternal , so the question of where we came from is not really moot..
2. given our antiquity , all disputes have moved to modes 1 and 2 described above

3. we don't have fixed texts that cannot be appended or amended or questioned i.e we are open to change .
4. we are hardly worried if somebody calls us Al Kufr, Heathen etc etc. big deal.



I believe that the Hindu religion is pretty much ready for a new wave of inclusivity . that is why all those trying to divide the Hindu people on the lines of region and caste must be staunchly opposed.

 
At 7:03 AM, Blogger maverick said...

TSJ,

Thank you for your quick response.

As I understand it - this entire deal negotiation has suffered numerous communication problems on both sides.

On the US side, the NP community has repeatedly asked to be publicly assured that its cherished idol - the NPT and the proliferation surveillance embedded in it - is not being violated in someway. A public discussion about the USG's options to gather proliferation related information in this context will prejudice any opportunities that may exist in this regard.

And in India, a number of people have asked the GoI to speak publicly about concerns that the US will attempt to "cap,rollback and eliminate" India's nuclear capability. A public discussion of GoI's options with regards to nuclear security will severely compromise or effectively eliminate the capability to field such weapons.

Neither the GoI, nor the USG can afford public commentary on either of these issues.

And everyone who asks questions can claim to be - can claim to be "well-intentioned" - even if the questions they ask prejudice the fabric of the very national security they are claiming to be interested in protecting.

In the case of non-affiliated commentators, (i.e. people who are not retired employees of the GoI of relevant backgrounds), it is possible to tolerate their conduct as long as it does not attempt to poison the pool of debate as a whole by creating trust issues.

Tragically in the Hon. Webmaster's case, the extent of senseless conduct is so severe that the door to retrieving personal credibility in matters of national security has been closed forever. Unless everything he has said is completely discarded as being suspect from the start - a sense of mistrust will accrue.

An environment of cooperation between the US and India in nuclear affairs will leave no room for public dialogue on "long range Agni's" or "weaponising the PSLVs" or "Gigabooms".

And not just the US - it is difficult to imagine how *any* country will enter into nuclear commerce with India if this kind of talk about "big sticks" keeps cropping up.

I think it is time to put a stop to this kind of rubbish.

 
At 7:05 AM, Blogger Raju said...

>> Hi Raju,

Can you please back this up by a public statement that AK made?

Well Sunil if we look up his(AKs) 2006 statements which were full of contradictory remarks from Govt position. Then there was a sudden change in his attitude towards deal in 07. Either it was a synchronized effort at Good cop-Bad cop or else it is PMO pressure that eventually forced him to tow Govt line. Being a bureaucrat he had to bow down before pressure at some point of time.

This is what I was referring to.

 
At 7:08 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Ducking For Cover,

Financing represents a major problem for expanding nuclear power production.

A fact that people on the forum seem to miss altogether

 
At 7:22 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Raju,

There is a need to distinguish between AK's actual statements and *spin* ascribed to them by reporters and readers.

When the PM went to the US in July of 2005 and signed the agreement there - he did so after sufficient internal consultation.

However - there was no way that either the PM or the DAE or the RAW could have known what America's true intentions were at that point or if the US Congress/Senate would approve the agreement. Though President Bush had given his word on the issue - doubts persisted inside the GoI. These to my mind were very natural doubts - in the words of P.R.Chari - "this agreement drives a horse and cart through the NPT". It was not clear to anyone that US Congress would approve the agreement.

This entire period - from 2005 to 2006 when the senate/congress debate over the Hyde Act repeatedly publicy veered towards NPA inspired goals - there was a deep sense of concern inside the GoI.

It is this sense of concern that the media misrepresented as "opposition" to the deal inside the GoI. Only when the text of the deal was made public was this media racket stopped.

I think the public at large in India is still struggling with the proliferation of mass media and there is a poor grasp of the manner in which the media sensationalises things purely to increase its circulation.

A mature media audience has yet to develop in India. This is understandable to me also - we have only had TV for about twenty years now. Scarcely a generation has grown up with this resource and misuse is rampant. Also judicial protections against misuse are slim in India.

I anticipate more legislation in this regard in India in the near future.

 
At 7:46 AM, Blogger Raju said...

>> However - there was no way that either the PM or the DAE or the RAW could have known what America's true intentions were at that point or if the US Congress/Senate would approve the agreement.

Mav boss, this betrays understanding of working of GoI and interaction with foreign govts. These bilateral agreements are always decided 3 or 4 steps in advance. There are no surprises as such, i will explain this point in detail later.

 
At 9:33 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

>>>>>>>> Then there was a sudden change in his attitude towards deal in 07.

His change was coincident with the separation plan being successfully negotiated. He got what he wanted.

 
At 10:12 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

DF is busy with a poll on response to Kabul bombing ... our own Raju-ji has some brave advice ...

I humbly submit option #6 which was left out of the poll inadvertently:

6. Post a HUGE JPeg of the poll results. That will teach them!

:)

 
At 3:12 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Raju,

Regardless of what was decided 2-3 steps earlier - ultimately, the deal was intimately tied to the political fortunes of the Bush administration.

Given the crisis of credibility that the Administration was facing after the Iraq war - there were quite a few people in India that doubted that any agreement with the Bush Admin would be worth the paper it was written on.

The DAE's contribution was limited to technical inputs in this discussion.

The overall strategic picture was (and still remains) an open affair. We are creating the strategic reality of this deal with every internet post we make.

 
At 6:14 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

sadly, the state of affairs in India will not change easily ... we are like that onlee ...

all forms of columnists, strategists, rakshaks et al have poured GigaTonne of ink on why the deal with US sucks ...

at the same time, they pour another GigaTonne of ink on how the US is giving a wink and a nod to TSP ...

finally, yet another GigaTonne has been spent on rona-dhona about the blast in Kabul and what should be Indian response ...

the art of 2+2 = 4 is totally lost ...

 
At 6:38 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Mav,

Have you noticed the irony? ... the UberRakshaks on DF singing praises of VV Rao who was killed in Kabul are the same ones who a week ago would have dismissed him as a Babooze ...

 
At 6:48 PM, Blogger amberG said...

Hi Maverick

Nice blog. Will comment later here when get some more time.

All the best to Alok_N, TSJ and all other old friends.
>>>
give us your banned, your trolled, your disgusted

Count me on slightly disgusted with those who "play like scientists" on BRF but some times drown out any sane discussion, but I do hope the environment on BRF becomes open ..

Regards.

 
At 7:30 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Welcome Amber G.,

Trust all is well and the downhill skiing from the peaks of the treacherous non-liner curves has been pleasant ...

:)

 
At 7:32 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 7:34 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Nuke power entails "significant " up-front costs. That's why in a liberalized environment only players with rather deep pockets can engage in this business.

The combination of high initial costs and the possibility of delays in construction have made promoters reluctant to sponsor nuke plants in the past.


Also needless to say construction costs are sensitive to the prices of cement and steel.


clearly some form of regulatory support is in order here...


In the future a carbon tax on coal fired generation may serve make nuke power more attractive

 
At 8:49 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

Lookie here ... this is from IsharaMaster:

"I get the feeling that Sri Rao would have made an ideal BR member- young mid 40s, highly educated(Phd) yet not Westernised, loves his country and family. A very sad day when a core citizen is cut down.

Same with Brig. Mehta. He would have been a good Moderator once he retired."


Excuse me!!????!!!!!!!

why are you dragging these valiant Indians into the mud with you?????!!!!????

These two were good men ... not the corrupt duplicitous MegaBC it takes to be one of you banner-jee types ...

groan!!! ... have they no shame?

 
At 9:30 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Clerics_annul_rape_victims_marriage/articleshow/3212463.cms


Okay, our dear mullahs are passing "judgements" on yet another "father-in-law" perpetrated rape case. the time to push for a universal civil code is now.

 
At 9:41 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

the actual pre-requisites for being a successful Df member are the following

1. it doesn't matter how old you are as long as you can GUBO.
2. if you do make a post that sounds intelligent , please do not forget to add a line of praise for one of the banner-jee types at the end, lest they get jealous.
3. However, that should be the exception and not the rule and most posts must consist of inane repetitions of the many "aphorisms" first expostulated on Df by our baner-jees.


4. make some blood curdling sectarian statements on a regular basis.

5. And of course last but not the least , post Jpegs of the various coquettes who have studied Pinglish with you in LMU.


The circle is complete and as a bonafide Df member you are welcome to take the escalator down the gopher hole.

 
At 10:03 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 10:04 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

banerjee #1 = My shirt is torn ..
banerjee #2 = My fly is open ...


banerjee #1 = what Ishaara are you trying to give to me ?

banerjee # 2= I thought you were trying to give me an ishaara ?


banerjee # 1 .. Hmm looks like we have to work on our communication...


< chorus by chatterjees in the background => 1CBT ,1CEBETE, 1CEEBEETEE , 1 CEEE BEEE TEEE ....

 
At 10:15 PM, Blogger Raju said...

ha ha alok you got that. I was thinking how I could post that here.

All people can have moments of self-delusion perhaps. Bannerjees are no exception.

 
At 10:21 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Excuse me,
Baner-jees don't have "moments of delusion".

you are having a moment of delusion right now , if you actually believe that...

 
At 10:50 PM, Blogger dilbert said...

AmberG:

Good to see you here. Your valiant efforts to keep a modicum of sanity on the BRF have been noted. Well done!

 
At 11:06 PM, Blogger Raju said...

saurav, yes I am aware of the raisin deter of existence of his blog. But ask me to go no further, else since the future of my Ishaaras will be then at stake.

 
At 11:28 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

arrey Raju Bhai,
why are you taking my comment so seriously?

this blog exists to regain the humor that we lost in DF ...

No Ishaara here .. really mean it.

 
At 11:44 PM, Blogger Raju said...

the net fails to convey humour in discussions effectively saurav jee.

 
At 11:56 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

Absolutely right and even with emoticons and stuff , you are liable to be misunderstood.

The phone has the same problem..

 
At 11:57 PM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

maybe the video phone or a telecon through the net...

 
At 12:06 AM, Blogger Raju said...

but Isharaas are apparently effectively conveyed.

how is this managed ? this is truly a miracle of the net. One of its great gifts

 
At 12:25 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

arrey when you have 40 + years of practice you can convey any Ishaara through the net :0

 
At 12:26 AM, Blogger ducking for cover said...

why the net , a seasoned baner-jee can convey it through ether for all you know...

 
At 6:13 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Amber,

Thank you for your efforts to restore sanity to that debate on BR.

Dear Alok_N,

That comment is bewildering to say the least - afaik Sri. Rao and Brig. Mehta has no connection to BR.

As as aside I note the birth pangs of a new BRM/SRR - that is a good thing.

 
At 6:52 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Commenting on the situation in Kabul remains difficult.

Typically - the notion of "balance in South Asia" is used by the USG to creat artificial obstacles to India's progress in South Asia. Resurrecting this in the context of Afghanistan, effectively legitimises acts of Pakistani hostility towards Indians in Afghanistan.

As far as I can see - this kind of talk is a little too suggestive.

Presently it is unclear to me - if the US shares Pakistan's desire to keep India out of Central Asia and what if anything the US feels about the India's role in Afghanistan. Specifically - does the US feel that India is getting too big for its boots in Afghanistan?

Clearly given the US's entrenched interests there in energy trade and other transnational economies in the region - it is difficult to believe that the US would want India having an independent presence in Afghanistan.

By contrast, India prefers an independent posture everywhere.
India has no hostility towards any of the Afghan people.

India has no interest in playing buzkashi with the bodies of Afghan children, that has always been - and still remains - pastime popular with the Pakistanis and ISAF troops.

India's desire not to send troops as cannon fodder for ill-advised US military operations in Afghanistan is a reflection of this core thought process.

India's support to the US in Afghanistan has been limited to providing a cultural bridge between the invading Americans and the Afghans. This action on the part of India has enabled the US to minimise friction due to the cultural mismatch between its people and the native Afghans.

A militarised US leadership in Afghanistan is unlikely to recognise the importance of such softpower projection by India and is likely to make demands on India's slender resources in the area of intelligence sharing.

A militarised Paksitani leadership in likely to react in a hostile manner to any Indian cultural contact with Afghanistan. Quite simply, the mere presence of India in Afghanistan could erode Pakistan's softpower options - eg. fray the support of Jalalabad area Pashtuns for Pakistani shenanigans. Without a large group of poor pissed off Afghans to draw upon - the Pakistanis will be hard placed to launch suicide attacks on Afghan soil.

Simpler still, if Mullah Omar asks some twelve year old Afghan child to don a suicide bomber jacket and instead of jumping at the opportunity - the Afghan child shows Mullah Omar the finger and starts watching Aishwarya Rai dancing on TV.. Mullah Omar and his friend in the Pakistan Army will be mightily pissed.

Sure, a forensic investigation will yeild trails leading to Pakistan and its Army. What the forensics will not tell us is if this is a "spontaneous" act by the proxies or whether this is an act inspired by a specific desire to bolster India-Pak hostility.

Indo-Pak hostility remains the key to ensuring that the Pakistan Army has an enduring place inside Pakistani politics and it is also the core of the "balance of power in South Asia" idea.

 
At 9:31 AM, Blogger alok_n said...

Raju Boss,

saw your exchange with amit ...

the Q of China getting access through the Left was brought up ...

looks like your Ishara was missed on amit ...

even a Novice like me can see that you meant the opposite, i.e., the Left has access to the document through China ...

but, they have a major dilemma ... how to publicize it without reveling their source ... this is not something that you can easily "leak" ... the fingers will point at you anyway ...

:)

 
At 9:53 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi,

I don't have a problem with some left fellow showing the document to China.

If some pro American fellow can walk into the Ambassadors office in Delhi with a pen drive - why can't a CPI member show this document to China?

If we don't do "equal-equal" in this regard, then we will be vulnerable to allegations of a bias.

There is nothing there that the Chinese don't know about. Once the trade barriers are removed, chinese firms can compete for the same contracts as American firms.

If CPI can get Australian Uranium from China for cheaper than they buy it from the Rudd's people, then I have no problem with putting 10,000 nuclear power plants in West Bengal. Why just West Bengal, we can supply electricity to Bangladesh and Tibet at the same time.

 
At 9:59 AM, Blogger maverick said...

The Left has removed support - they have no further role to play anything now.

 
At 11:47 AM, Blogger quantum chaos said...

People are calling for abrogation of constitution now.WTF.what pot are they smoking.
Abhisheik

 
At 11:49 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Hello,

Irrespective of how it comes about - until a vote of no confidence is actually successfully passed - any agreement the treasury signs will be legally valid and binding on the country.

Any agreement signed after a successful vote of no confidence, can theoretically be challenged in a court in India, however, the such a challenge will simply be a source of public amusement.

If at any point of time - after the agreement is signed - the Government of India, wishes to withdraw from the agreement *for whatever reasons*, it will have to follow the termination clauses in the agreement.

Any attempt to leave an agreement without following the stipulations laid out in the termination clauses will gravely weaken *ALL* treaties signed at any place and time by the GoI and irreparably damage the structure of India's foreign policy.

 
At 12:04 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi Quantum Chaos,

There is no constitutional ambiguity here.

The Government of India - once sworn in by the President of India - has the power to conduct the business of governance.

If this logic - i.e. "international treaties signed by a minority government are invalid" is extended - then *ALL* business conducted by the government can be termed invalid.

That part about "abrogation of the constitution" is self-contradictory.

If the constitution is "abrogated", all checks and balances on the executive are out the window. Once that is done - you can't question the validity of anything. Even by forum standards, this is a particularly impotent branch of reasoning.

If the forum members are suggesting that the constitution be amended to put a clause in that forbids a minority government from signing international treaties, then yes they should bring it up with the BJP/Left front MP of their choice. I imagine there is a long line of people who want the constitution amended for various reasons, so I guess they may have to wait a while before the BJP/CPI hear their plea.

I imagine that the BJP/CPI wallah will give them a polite hearing and then laugh loudly when their backs are turned.

 
At 12:09 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Yes - there is an informal agreement between members of the political class not to sign international stuff if one is a minority.

However - this is becaue the international agreement is very much valid regardless of the constitutional status of the government that signed it.

 
At 3:01 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi,

I was reading the article by Sri. B. S. Raghavan, the former Chief Secretary of WB state, also formerly of the JIC and MHA.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/07/10/stories/2008071051100800.htm

and in it, he makes a most curious statement,

" A similar absurdity was resorted to by the Government, when it commandeered its Foreign Secretary, no less, to fly to the US to tremulously hand over to the US Administration, like a schoolboy to the headmaster, full particulars of the atomic energy department’s assets of every description which were kept top secret from its own citizens, subjecting them to all the rigours of the Official Secrets Act."

Does anyone know what he is talking about?

 
At 3:12 PM, Blogger maverick said...

You can't call someone illogical without exposing your own logic to scrutiny.

There is a thing about people who live in glass houses.

 
At 3:23 PM, Blogger dilbert said...

Mav at 3:12 PM:

You can't call someone illogical without exposing your own logic to scrutiny.

There is a thing about people who live in glass houses.


Mav:

Who are you referring to here? What is the topic/context?

 
At 5:42 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi Dilbert,

There is a comment on BR that I am referring to.

The only "logic" underlying the attacks on Chairman DAE is that he shifted his stance (c.f. Raju's comment "this babu can't be trusted") after the Hyde Act was passed.

Once that is established as an axiom - then it is all too easy to accuse Chairman DAE of being "illogical".

If on the other hand - you don't think that Chmn. DAE ever changed his position on anything - then you don't feel the need to continuously dismiss everything he says.

This dismissive trend in the forum's statements reflects a lack of maturity among the forum members.

Lately the ballad of defeat is being sung on the forum - especially as the leverage afforded by pseudo legalistic ideas to block the deal are evaporating.

Now we wait for the entertainment of a full parliamentary drama with associated walkouts etc... when the IAEA protocol is tabled.

 
At 5:46 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Hi,

I would really like to know what B.S. Raghavan was talking about.

This is the first time I have heard this allegation.

Mind you I am not questioning the GoI's prerogative to classify/unclassify information, however, this is first time that I am seeing any charge of this nature laid at the GoI's door.

Is this is a leftist provocation to counter the suggestion made the left is leaking information to China?

 
At 5:56 PM, Blogger Raju said...

alok, that was not the Ishaara I wanted to convey, seriously. The only Ishaara was that the spin by some UPA-vasis on the forum was proved wrong when they claimed that China would be given access to the document via the Left.

Secondly to me it gets more clearer everyday, that this denial of document to Left was just a ruse. A synchronized game both Left and UPA are playing to fool the electorate just before the elections.

Karat yesterday revealed to media that he was extremely greatful to US for making the agreement public. Immdiately GoI wonks went ballistic and started searching the net furiously to find out what Karat was saying and whether agreement was indeed public. But then all they found was some legacy agreement by IAEA and a third country that had a deal with US some 12 years ago.

that was until Rangudu published it on BR for all to see.

 
At 5:56 PM, Blogger dilbert said...

Mav:

Thanks. Yes, that's what I suspected you meant, I just wasn't sure.

I myself noted that ridiculous ishaara by the ishaara-master, but didn't comment on it here because by now this BS is so commonplace on the forum as to be unremarkable.

Yes, I agree that AK is being maligned, but so are many others. Just a couple of days ago the Honourable Webmaster repeated his slurs against APJAK and RC. He was making dark threats about starting another of his deranged tirades, but Shiv quickly stepped in and told him not to start.

So what the hell is new here? AK, APJAK, MMS, SG, Arundhati G, RC, KS -- they're all traitors/sellouts. The only true patriots are the deluded deal-bashers on the forum.

Did you notice today how there was much whining about how the IAEA agreement was being kept top-secret by the GoI, no one was allowed to see it etc. -- until Rupak took the trouble to look for it and quickly located and posted the link on the forum. LOL!!

 
At 6:00 PM, Blogger dilbert said...

My mistake, it was Rangudu who posted the link.

 
At 6:01 PM, Blogger Raju said...

and amit is not thick, on contrary very shrewd operator. He was trying to pretend that he had not read/understood my Ishaara and was spinning away to glory on behalf of UPA-vasis.

 
At 6:29 PM, Blogger alok_n said...

raju,

indeed a complex game is on ...

the ones to fall for it are BC, BK and folks like sraj, shauryaT, IsharaMaster et al ... they have gone hoarse shouting and their eyes are weary from reading all sorts of fine print ...

let's see what gobbledygook they can raise on Rangudu's doc ...

so far it looks like:

1. couple of paras are off ...

2. AK has no logic ...

LOL

 

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