Anna's Brahmaastra
On that fateful night in the first week of June, the late Smt. Indira Gandhi confronted the sum of all her fears. If she gave Gen. Brar and Col. Israr's men their marching orders, she would be committing to a level of coercion that had never been attempted in the history of the Republic. If she told Gen. Brar and Col. Israr's men to stay their hand, she would be effecting a moral surrender by the Government of India.Sadly, given the intensity of emotions that this event brings up in India, we seldom discuss the calculus that went through the late Madam Prime Minister's head. And most of us do not know how she passed through that long dark and stormy night.
Today - we are faced with a similar choice.
A weapon designed for the defence of the defenceless is being pointed at the Government of India.
No form of government is perfect - democracy is not without its flaws. Protest is always welcome, but Sri. Anna Hazare has flashed the brahmastra - his willingness to carry out a fast unto death - in the Government's face.
This singular act conveys a degree of moral supremacy and commitment that is unquestioned in modern India. In the US - if someone like Rosa Parks or Rev. Martin Luther King had indicated such a desire - the President would simply have sent in a bunch of DevGru or SFOD-D people to stick a saline drip into their arm. In the UK they would simply have sent some SBS/SAS types to deal with the person.
You can't do that in India. It will be an assault on the moral foundation of the nation. India earned its freedom through precisely such fasts and such sacrifices. The GoI cannot turn on its own roots.
It is unlikely that Annasaheb will be deterred from his quest. Anna knows this is a suicide mission and he has accepted it. Anna walks the same path that countless martyrs of India's security forces have marched. Like them, Anna took an oath - and now the oath binds him to the path of no return.
Yet the Government of India can no more agree to Annasaheb's demands than it could agree to Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale's demands.
The threat of moral force does not intimidate the Government of India. The Government of India is duty bound to protect the life of a person - however disinclined the person may be to save their own life. And as long as a suicidal person does not threaten the life of another person, the Government has no cause to use coercive force.
posted by maverick @ 2:24 PM
113 Comments:
Hello Mav,
Yes it is one of those moments yet again. I am glad that the Govt. of India has decided not to surrender.
Cheers,
-Sugriva
At the police aren't treating him like they treated Swami Ramdev.
Ramdev is irrelevant.
Anna is not.
The herrows on the forum will soon find out that reality is not what it seems.
Actually lot of people are going to learn the hard way that the way Indians treat Mahatma Gandhi and the way Pakistanis treat Islam is not that different.
My big worry is that my favourite party, the Punjab Suitcase Party, will suffer in the elections due to all this protesting.
Mav,
Anna may not be irrelevant, but he is being insincere.Any right minded person would be against corruption, but Forcing a bill down legislatures throat is simply not done. Also the hyperbole of Second Freedom Struggle and the attendant public hysteria whether spontaneous or manufactured makes me really uneasy. Can not place it as to why, apart from precedence it is going to set. However GoI inept handling has made it worse. For once I will not agree with you that GoI knows what it is doing.
Abhisheik
Well, first time an severely regional figure like Hazare came to protest in Delhi, anyone with half a brain would have quietly given him a corner soapbox in Jantar Mantar. The way he has been pumped up by the media and the the quite undeserving amount of legroom he was given by the INC-GoI right from the initial stages makes me....... not so worried.
Maybe its yet another Frankenstein Monster (even maybe still under control) devised by some tactically brilliant Soch Tankis in INC HQ to "control" the inevitable backlash after a season of scams. I think they will play this as long as the people-who-follow-the-visual-media are "amused"; the Churidhari Dadiwaala Baba thingie was an unexpected factor that perturbed things just a little.
Anand K,
Charminar time.
Abhisheik,
I am thinking of starting a TV channel called Naastha.
It will have programs which speak directly to the common man.
One set of programs will advise people on how to pay the least amount by way of a bribe.
Another set will advise people on how to get the most bribes.
All advertisements will be sponsored by a criminal cartel or some foreign hand and as the election draws near only the Punjab Suitcase Party's propaganda will be allowed on the channel.
All the news will focus on high achievers in the world of graft. Suresh Kalmadi and Raja will host their own shows from Tihar Jail.
While all channels show porn after 10 PM - the Naastha channel will show porn all day long.
I bet you my channel's facebook page will get more friends and "likes" than Anna Hazare and Ramdev put together.
I find it amusing that after the authorities put him in jail, now he won't leave. grin. The world's largest democracy has some learning to do, it seems. And Anna is just the person to teach it.
Never heard of catch-and-release?
A lot of folks watching this saga don't get it yet.
Anna isn't doing any more "teaching" than India is doing any "learning".
You can crowd-source whatever you want *to* and *from* the twitter and facebook feeds.
It is not going to change the fact that the situation has been resolved.
Most of what you are seeing is a media manufactured public consciousness.
Indians are not going to stop giving or accepting bribes. A small subset of Indians infected by this media fad is going to make a fuss about bribery and that is going to make it more risky to enter into bribery (at the giving/receiving end).
Usually when the risk goes up - so does the size of the bribe demanded.
All in all - I think the net effect of all this stuff on the unaudited economy in India is going to be zero. If the number of bribes go down, the size of the bribes is going to go up.
All the political parties are trying to get political mileage out of this.
The BJP-NDA folks want to project themselves as "clean","wholesome" people. Having long used the Hindu religious card to deflect attention from corruption within its ranks - they are trying to wash of the stain of being seen as a bunch of minority murdering Hindu religious bigots.
The Left/third front is using this episode to deflect attention from rampant corruption in its own ranks.
The Congress(I) sees an opportunity to use this "corruption" consciousness to push out some of the old fat cats and bring in new people. The Congress has been pilloried for being a party led by an Italian-born Christian woman - this is the perfect opportunity to get away from that.
The only party that is being honest about its intentions is the Punjab Suitcase Party.
That is why I intend to vote for it in the next election.
remember folks -
"Suitcaisan dee sarkar chaubees ghante khulla darbar (A government of the suitcase is open 24 hours for those who have suitcases to offer)"
Hmm... at least one forumite has noticed that Tushar Gandhi is not exactly singing praises of Anna.
Yet another opined the following
" Without doing either, he can be used to diffuse the effect of INC's corruption before 2014 so that opposition particularly BJP does not benefit from it. Before this fast, leading news was BJP taking up CWG CAG report. Now that coverage is gone, and no word on Delhi CM. Today BJP brought up issue of Haryana land allotment to RG trust in parliament, no coverage.
INC gives you jan lokpal. All corruption before jan lokpal is blamed on the lack of jan lokpal (except Yeddy, Jagan and those not with INC). Before lokpal, everyone was corrupt. INC gave you lokpal. move on.
This argument will win with a lot of jan lokpal supporters, BTW. And at an opportune time, secularism can be brought back again to keep them either away from polling booth or vote INC for the good doctor or the prince.
And 'internet hindus' on twitter etc are all uniformly wary of AH.
INC strategy on AH (and BR too) is tuned to getting max media coverage.
1. when BR went on fast, internet hindus cribbed that media coverage was much less than AH though crowd was larger. Midnight crackdown changed that.
2. AH could have been allowed the second fast. Arrest before the fast and images of Tihar got 100x coverage.
Now the news coming out is about the mechanics of the fast - where, how long etc. will we ever get any coverage of 2G or CWG again?"
Now will the realisation dawn on the rest? or will the salivating at the prospect of a staggering electoral advance by the BJP or via its alleged proxy Baba Ramdev... drown out all prospects of an enlightenment?
As I said before - the moment has passed.
It is charminar time...
http://tobaccodocuments.org/pollay_ads/Char01.01.html
Mehr Bukhari has her wires crossed.
On the Indian side of the border, SAFMA is seen as an ISI outfit.
It could be both sides are wrong and SAFMA is actually a CIA operation.
But then in India sometimes people alternately accuse RAW and ISI both of being CIA operations.
Zaid Hamid miyan - I have a few good words for you -
*DOING SO MUCH DRUGS IS REALLY BAD FOR HEALTH*
forget the kapothka..
I'll settle for this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okEvRoD1yGE
aah, I have been posting in the earlier thread ... didn't see this one.
I have been following Anna supporters for 3 straight days ... you have to be here to believe it ...
this is one time that armchair commentary is irrelevant.
I am thinking of going to the Indian embassy in my fair city and register my displeasure at their treatment of Anna. I understand that there will be plenty of Indians there as well also giving forth protest. I'll be the big fat white guy in the crowd.
Ralphy,
Have fun! I suspect you are way overestimating the number of Indians in the US who would care enough to show up at their embassy/consulate to protest this.
knock yourself out
In Mumbai now ... there was a huge march/rally yesterday, but I didn't manage to go ... not as comfortable with Mumbai streets as I am with Delhi.
This thing ain't going away ...
Dear Mani,
That is good to hear.
As I have indicated in previous posts - the real problem is that vast quantities of money are moving around that can't be tracked properly.
Some kind of social control has to be put in to deal with this. Otherwise law enforcement will become completely ineffective.
This is not supposed to go away, it is supposed to stay in focus and keep people alert, but it has stay managed. I would expect some variation of the post Mandal Commission situation.
I was deeply concerned that Anna was not going to cooperate. However a few minutes before the "the herrows on the forum will soon find out ..." comment, I became aware of a shift in the situation - that post originally read "it is over folks - go home" - but then I didn't want it to come across as too triumphant.
Note Tushar Gandhi's comments about "a fast reforming the opponent" and the manner in which Anna changed his posture in response to that criticism.
At some point self-promoters like Ramdev will have to be removed from the scene. But that is under control also, his Nepali manager and the money channels are under the scanner now. Ramdev will do what he is told when he is told. If he doesn't, Anna will be outside Tihar and Ramdev will be inside. May be Ramdev can teach those AIDS infected prisoners in the Tihar hospital ward some yoga. Hey who knows perhaps his yoga and ayurvedic/unani medicine combo might even keep him safe from AIDS or cure the HIV positive prisoners.
Actually all the internet savvy NRI Anna-istas, should realise that when they write checks to Anna now - they should leave the "for" section of the check blank.
This way the Indian Postal Service will find it easy to write in the words "For CIA AgitProp Operation" in the blank space.
IIT student, Shashi Shekhar, CE-KGP, does not want to accept degree from the PM, as a show of support to Anna.
(http://ibnlive.in.com/news/iit-kharagpur-student-backs-anna-refuses-degree/177681-3.html)
- Okay that is his choice - don't give him his degree. The degree is a privilege, it is not a right. There is no obligation to give him his degree.
His stay at IIT ends this year - he can leave without taking his degree.
Maybe he can show people paper clippings of the news articles on his "refusal" in place of his degree to companies that want to hire him. At least that way he doesn't have to talk about his CPI.
> Mr. Chandar Kumar Patel, M.Tech EE wants to take his degree in a Gandhi topi instead of the traditional robes.
Great idea Mr. Chandar Kumar, full points to you and JK Steel Radials!!
I think we can implement that change all over the IITs, I think that whole black gown thing is absurd in India. All IITians should be asked to accept their degrees in khadi!
From the lights of the forum
"Frankly, this whole business is going too smooth for Anna to believe. Something is not right, especially i didn't expect Cong govt to be so stupid that it allowed Anna to grow so big (my family has lots of chota mota congi leaders and i know what they are capable of). On the contrary, they helped him get there with the whole deal of taking him to tihar etc.
What if, as predicted, Rajmata comes to Anna, with R baba at his feet, says congress needs a mentor like you. Will you please join and help the prince in building a new India and Anna says YES. With prompt kick out of all the old tainted dhotis out (MMS, Chindu etc). Perfect check mate.
As for Indian public, it is very good at getting dejected as usual and will say, all this is our Karma, and get back to their routine.
I truly hope i am wrong on this one. And if by chance this turns out true - hope all the old dhotis fight back and show the true colour of the dynasty.
Anna as Gandhi and Rahul as JLN is not a far-fetched - added to that is another act of sacrificed Jesus Mata now battling with cancer adding a healing touch."
***- toothy grin -***
>> - Okay that is his choice - don't give him his degree. The degree is a privilege, it is not a right. There is no obligation to give him his degree.
He is simply choosing to not accept the degree from MMS. He has completed all degree requirements, it is now his right to get the degree. The requirements to get a degree do not include not being disrespectful to authority.
>> Mr. Chandar Kumar Patel, M.Tech EE wants to take his degree in a Gandhi topi instead of the traditional robes.
Dont know about IIT Kgp, but at IITB, the robes are used only by the Dean and so on. All other students wear a white Kurta Pyjama and receive an 'angvastram' instead of the graduation cap with the tassle.
>> All IITians should be asked to accept their degrees in khadi!
Many do.
Let this armchair punditry be, this is not a CIA financed agitprop.. Kiran Bedi, the Bhushans, Kejriwal and Anna.. I somehow dont see them as CIA stooges.
You lost whatever respect I had for you, and the same goes for the rat shackers with this idiocy.
Mav, folks,
I don't know about deep conspiracies etc among the leaders of this movement ...
However, I have spent a week with the protesters ... they are all genuine ... I'll be darned if my sense of reading people can be so wrong ...
Anna is now a symbol ... it doesn't matter what he thinks ... the awakening of the people is for real ... and that will survive any number of badmashi moves from GoI ...
Dear Sudeep,
I think most of the students and parents attending would prefer it if the graduation ceremony at IIT is not turned into a visit to a whorehouse where titillating political satire can be witnessed in the street.
He can complete all the requirements, but the degree and transcripts can be withheld for administrative reasons including pending disciplinary action, unpaid dues etc... Also a disciplinary action can be initiated retroactively if evidence of malpractice is found in previous coursework. The matter rests solely with the Dean SA and the Dean Academic Affairs.
Khadi is not a requirement at graduations yet.
If he wants he can take the honorable option and not attend the ceremony - instead of putting on some kind of political farce.
Graduation is a place for the parents and faculty to quietly reflect on the academic achievements and quietly celebrate the entry into a life beyond the school. It is a time to think about the growing sense of worldly responsibility.
I don't think any of them are CIA agents either - but that isn't going to stop them from being labeled as such if they do things that go against the national interest.
National interest is defined by the political classes. The INC folks have already started speculating that the movement has intentions that go beyond the national interest. Already we are seeing "internet Hindus" expressing similar sentiments. As the accusations of corruption become increasingly personalised, expect the counter-allegations of foreign funding to become equally nasty.
It doesn't matter if you respect me or not - the reality is there for all to see.
Today the forum herrows are worried that the political benefits of Anna Saheb's campaign will accrue to the Gandhi family. A few months ago, Digvijay Singh and company opined that Anna's political favour would extend to the BJP and the RSS.
My how things have changed.
Dear Mani,
I am aware of that and I feel a lot of these people are going to be severely disillusioned. That is why I brought up the post-Mandal Commission episode.
I am glad awareness of the corruption problem is growing and people are voicing their distaste for it.
Now I hope these "genuine" people are kind enough to remember this righteous anger when they ask for or give out bribes.
Somehow I don't think that is going to happen.. do you remember the caricature of the sweet shop owner in Malgudi Days? the fellow who spun khadi in his house but never paid a naya paisa in sales tax because "Gandhiji never said anything about paying sales tax"...
That is what I feel is at work here.
Being pro-Anna is cheap. Stopping the payment or taking of bribes is not-so-cheap. So after all the shouting and screaming - under the bed covers (like Pakistan's whiskey drinking Islam )India's real national religion - bribery - will go on. Anna will simply become the poor fellow who comes in every twenty years or so and changes the soiled sheets.
>> graduation ceremony at IIT is not turned into a visit to a whorehouse where titillating political satire can be witnessed in the street.
Oh wow! a simple act of protest or even political satire is the equivalent of visiting a whore house. Bhaisaab, get your head out of your rear end. The entire country was treated like a whorehouse when Radia and her stooges ran wild. Now, if the youth lash out, you suddenly remember vice and virtue!
>> a disciplinary action can be initiated retroactively if evidence of malpractice is found in previous coursework. The matter rests solely with the Dean SA and the Dean Academic Affairs.
Spoken like a Sarkar Bhagat.
I have been there, done that. Contrary to what you may believe, the authorities at IIT cant do anything they want. Before they do anything like that, they will do well to remember how much money comes from the alumni, and what impact such precipitate action will have on that.
>> I don't think any of them are CIA agents either - but that isn't going to stop them from being labeled as such if they do things that go against the national interest. National interest is defined by the political classes.
Awesome! the 2g and the CWG scam was in the national interest. How stupid can you really be? Truly, patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
>> It doesn't matter if you respect me or not - the reality is there for all to see.
Bhaisab, yeh chutiagiri chodiye.. yahan 4 chele ikkathe kiye hain, woh bhi chal denge..
Dear Sudeep,
Youth have always lashed out. Whether in J&K, Punjab or Nagaland... and you know what their fate was.
The entire Maobadi epidemic is also youth lashing out. Their fate is also well known.
Why should an IIT student be treated any different. You want to lash out - go ahead - but then be prepared to pay the price.
Sir aap zaroor H3 mein rahe honge... because the IITB I went to didn't have Alumini money linked to student welfare. The Alumini money was simply connected to Alumini desire for fame. Actually my ancestor in IIT had the unfortunate distinction of watching riot police enter the campus and clear it of "Naxalites". Now granted my illustrious ancestor had implemented a plan to unify the mess workers' struggle and undergrad griping about grades and mistreatment into one fine and very vocal struggle - but the outcome however noble his desire was ... not to his liking.
If someone wants to stage a show out side graduation - koi baat nahin - some armed police will be on hand to sort out the situation as the need arises.
I have said this before on this blog - my B.Tech came at the cost of the lives of 1000 Indian children. If the money spent on giving me my degree was spent on direct income support for poor familes for four years, I am sure at least 1000 Indian children could have been saved from illness, starvation and untimely deaths.
Most of the people I sat in the common room with had the good sense to know this fact. And that was usually enough to keep our head out of our asses and kept us humble. At least we knew that GoI was doing us a favour... unlike some others now.
I am not a patriot. I have never attended a single 15th august ceremony or watched the r-day parade. I leave that to others who can't think of what to call themselves. I am Indian and I am realistic - that is all.
Insulting the Prime Minister of India will bring a bad name to the biradari. The biradari has too much invested to allow one idiot to spoil it all.
I can completely guarentee you - that neither the former social secretary of my hostel nor any of his friends find this behaviour acceptable - and he will not go along with this - by induction as I am also his descendant - Saar - neither shall I.
If I am so irrelevant miyan why do you care if I have any friends left?
I am not keeping you here. Jaane hain to jayeye sahab.... I am sure if you walk to YP - you can bum a ciggy from someone.
Hi Mav,
>>>>> Being pro-Anna is cheap. Stopping the payment or taking of bribes is not-so-cheap. So after all the shouting and screaming - under the bed covers (like Pakistan's whiskey drinking Islam )India's real national religion - bribery - will go on.
Yes, this is the most likely outcome. However, I am optimistic - I don't think there will be a sweeping change, but incremental improvements are possible. Recall the RTI bill - it did make a difference.
Meanwhile the show goes on ... my cabbie for the day asked for "leave" between 1:30 and 3:30 PM today. I thought that he had personal business ... instead, he is joining a "taxi march for Anna".
Anna is a lightening rod ... people are latching on to him ... however, you are right in that they need to reflect on their own behavior wrt bribery.
speaking of IITK and alumni, check this out:
http://tinyurl.com/3hfkfxt
my namesake who is clearly better appointed :-)
Dear Sudeep,
Please acknowledge that you have read this and understand what it is saying.
My former soc. secy will not go along with any form of insolence towards Sri. Manmohan Singh. As I am his lineal descendant - neither will I.
As the former soc. secy has indicated in his recent public utterances, corruption is a menace in our society but it cannot be solved by personalised confrontation. It is not "with us or against us" - but we are all in this together - so lets work together and see what can be achieved without political posturing.
Naturally you are free to choose your path but I humbly ask you to join us in the path that leads away from unnecessary friction and leads towards meaningful progress.
Hi Mani,
That is exactly what Anna is expected to do. The politicians have seen to it that he will be nothing more than a lightening rod.
How to turn lightening to usable electricity - that is the problem to which there appears no easy solution.
When Gandhiji led the masses, the lightening rod effect was sufficient to bring the British to the negotiating table. Mill workers, mine workers, soldiers, opium farmers, indigo farmers - these were the feet of the empire - if they responded to the lightening rod effect and defined the British Indian Government as the enemy - the empire would collapse in a day. That fear kept the British at the table.
Back then due to racial differences and oppressive taxation of the British Government, the enemy was easy to identify.
Now it is not so.
In that sense - this is a greater revolution - a Jihad al Akbar if I ever saw one.
If it works well - then we will see something like Sri. Vinobha Bhave's bhudan movement.
If it doesn't work out - then we will see another post-Mandal commission mess.
Given the short attention span and limited retentivity for concepts like "practicing what you preach" among the ITvity classes - I fear the latter is more likely than the former.
An interesting perspective on the situation -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/23/india-anticorruption-leader-comparison-gandhi
"From the inception of this movement I have been arguing that, to be a potent anti-establishment force, it has to link up with the more substantive movements against exploitation by a depredatory capitalism aided by a neoliberal state. My conviction stems from my experience as a journalist and academic researcher working on issues of dispossession and displacement. Last Saturday, Hazare addressed these questions for the first time at a public rally, when he spoke about land being taken from the poor and given to industrialists.
If this rhetoric is translated into substantial action, this movement has a potential for potency. At the same time, it would alienate Hazare's most vocal backers – the middle-class and capitalist entrepreneurs. Gandhi understood the gravity of this contradiction, which is why he never spoke the language of class."
I think agree with the basic thrust of the arguments being presented here.
I would word them as follows -
The "Middle Class" of India cannot survive in an environment where "corruption" does not help offset the wealth disparity inherent in India.
This is why if any substantial moves are made by Anna and company to curtail the culture of corruption that makes "Middle Class" life sustainable in India - then that will lead to a decline in public support for the movement.
Mahatma Gandhi faced a similar problem on the issue of caste. Freedom to some Indians did not automatically imply an end to the caste system. Gandhiji had to tread carefully and pick his battles wisely on that front.
Also this article
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opinion/article2389425.ece
should be more appropriately titled "the DCH phenomenon".
I guess the real/open question in my mind is whether the current climate will allow Team Anna to display the flexibility it needs to achieve its apolitical goals - or whether the movement will be coopted by political forces or simply fall victim to social inertia.
People point fingers at Congress I for being a "Gandhi Only" party - implying that only those with the "bloodline" can hold high posts.
But this kind of dynasty politics is in every party.
The real problem is not the dynasty politics - it is the perception that the emperor won't share his food.
A number of lower and mid level party workers are complaining that the top brass is staggeringly corrupt and that the top brass takes the lions share of the corruption.
That is why every party will show a certain amount of shearing in response to the stress caused by the popularity of the Anna Hazare movement.
Let me ask the BJP Rakshaks a simple question.
Why should the political benefits of Anna Hazare's movement accrue to the BJP?
Is the BJP less "corrupt" than the Congress, if we normalize the "corruption" by time in power?
Can the BJP function in a "corruption free" environment than the Congress (I) can?
BJP are singularly spineless in this saga ... the Congress is at least mumbling pointless comments about due process and donning the parliamentary democracy burqa.
BJP, however, has distanced itself from all sides. One would expect the Rakshaks and Loh Purush etc to at least have a coherent viewpoint.
Dear Mani,
I agree with that.
The BJPs entire position on this issue is identical to that of the congress - i.e. accept some parts of the bill but strongly reject others.
What is the point of having an opposition if all they do is repeat what the treasury benches say with a few Vande Matarams or PM-Nikkamma-Hai shouts thrown in.
Besides dancing at Rajghat what has this party done?
What if anything should make me believe that the BJP is any better at handling the problem of corruption facing the nation?
Everyone rattles of how Modiji ki Sarkar is doing a bang up job in Gujurat. All my industrialist friends say - Modi is da Man...
But I walk to any place in Gujurat and people openly come to me and point out where people involved in the Godhra-Ahmedabad riot cycle live. These criminals go free and no one seems to be able to do a thing about them. If you talk to any of them, they all say the same thing - Jab tak Modiji ki sarkar power mein hain - tab tak koi worry nahin.
Is it possible to sustain a fiction of being a "corruption free" government if rioters go scot free simply because they support your government?
Is there a difference between such a government and the government of Pakistan?
So why should the benefits of Anna's struggle go to the BJP?
Hmm... that is interesting..
There is a small but noticeable shift in the tone of the forum. It will be curious to see if that bears out.
We are seeing discussions emerging about whether the Lokpal institution is aimed at disrupting high-level or low-level corruption and whether the lokpal will stop political corruption or retail corruption.
There is even one "Arjun" who has ventured into the land of his namesake... into the field between the armies ... with this comment -
"Technology (UID etc), system redesign (automating / eliminating touchpoints between public and babudom) & outsourcing to the private sector can play an equally important role in eliminating retail corruption - and investing in a giant bureaucracy to tackle it might not be the best approach."
Now I humbly wait to see if a discussion on how a UID system coupled with the gradual replacement of all paper currency with electronic credits will create the grounds for a meaningful auditory framework that deters both retail and political corruption.
After that discussion happens perhaps we can wait for the realisation to dawn that creating the economic framework for such measures to be effected - i.e. shoring up the reliability of the credit markets in India - is key to achieving the desired level of "corruption freeness".
Sudeep - my dear friend - are now following what I have been saying thus far.
Do you now understand why I will never diverge from anything my former soc. secy says?
I know you are reading this - respond dude - I won't hold it against you.
One thing has been clear from day one ... no politician will vote for a Bill that ensures that the said politician goes to jail ... unfortunately, such politicians are in the majority, regardless of party affiliation.
so, the Bill itself is DOA ... the public awareness, however, could have some positive impact ... not sure in what form will this impact be visible.
Hi Mani,
Yes - all this time - the BJP Rakshaks on the forum have done everything in their power to hide this fact. It is further proof of how the forum is misused by these "Masala Chai" faction drones to deflect attention away from meaningful debate.
You are absolutely correct that the Lokpal bill is DOA - what is needed a wider reform of auditory measures.
Team Anna (as opposed to Anna) is comfortable staying away from issues that are too complex. They are in to making a racket and getting people worked up. They are happy to go on TV and deal with some clueless Karan Thapar type and tell him about how they have been waiting for 40 years to pass this bill. And that idiot Karan can't even articulate the counterpoint that the reason it is taking so damn long is that the issue to too complex and that Team Anna is pushing for a useless oversimplification.
Again today - the leftists are slipping in very cogent arguments about the class conflict as a driver of corruption in society. The leftist critique of a class of "robber barons" in the industrialised economy looting the treasury and the people via collaborations with with a corrupt state is carrying the day.
This is the same thing that happened with the Nuclear Deal - the leftists made more cogent and credible arguments than the BJP.
Whether it is in the context of land acquisitions for nuclear power plants or in relation to the price of labour for emerging industries - today the Left front's point of view is making more sense than the BJP or the Congress (I).
The BJP still cannot articulate whether it wants to see political corruption or retail corruption addressed via the Lokpal institution. It does not want to take a stance that is distinct from the Congress (I).
This kind of behaviour is completely ceding the conceptual space to the Left.
I think giving Subodh Yadav a platform to rail against Sri. Brij Lal is a mistake.
Not everyone in Team Anna is as "clean" as Anna is.
Mav,
What do you think of the Army Chief's statement on this affair?
Hello Sugriva,
I think people are attributing more to the statement than it contains.
After the Chauthi Duniya report, some people think there is a gap between the COAS and the CCS.
So everything he says is being projected into that context regardless of when it is being said.
People in India don't yet realise that the Media has its own agenda and there is no accountability there.
groan! ... lack of "notice" is why they won't discuss in parliament today ... this is getting ridiculous.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-of-rahul-gandhi-s-speech-in-parliament-129162
Actually - this is a decent speech. Public speaking is not his strong point like Advani or Vajpayee, but he is getting better.
I wonder if someone could put together a website which has all the public correspondence between Anna and Sri. MMS.
I have a feeling these letters are going to be as important as the correspondence between JP and Mme. IG during the emergency period.
A few points that aren't in the current environment.
In any social system where
- there is a bureaucracy becomes vulnerable to retail corruption.
- there is a leadership role involved, becomes vulnerable to political corruption.
This is just the way it is - the moment you put human beings together in a group, they do some "good things" and some "bad things" - this is one of the "bad things".
The only thing that stands in its way is accountability. If there is an environment where accountability is easy to establish - then yes the system is relatively corruption free.
A Lokpal institution cannot function without accountability.
The Lokpal must be answerable to parliament.
Also if the Lokpal is to have all these powers, then it must have extremely high standards, even higher than those for Judges in India.
I am now speaking of an office similar in remit to the "Constitutional Defense" entity in Sweden.
Correspondingly, the punishments for a Lokpal official for participating in any abuse of power or corruption must be extraordinarily high.
All political parties are struggling with the idea of the Lokpal frustrating the "give and take" needed for them to remain functional in a dysfunctional economy.
In the US - the avenue taken is two fold -
- firstly political donations are tax exempt.
- secondly a class of legitimate middlemen - "lobbyists" are allowed to exist to deal with transactions that might cause problems for serving politicians.
The US style simply formalises the natural system of money flow that exists in any political framework. It is always a pay-to-play system regardless of which country you are in - the US system just clearly tells you that to your face. Other places try to keep that aspect of things out of sight.
This could in principle work in India - but with one vital tweak - the media needs to be subject to similar transparent organisation.
Too much in the Indian media is driven by unseen sources of money. Legislation that ensures that media houses disclose all sources of funding on a daily basis - would go a long way in ensuring accountability.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mav:
Sorry, but money donated to:
•Political parties, political campaigns, or political action committees
...are not tax exempt.
Any organization who wants to have tax exempt status must file and obtain from the IRS a 501(c)(3) designation (except for religious organizations).
It should be noted that Newt Gingrich back in the 1990's attempted have such an organization for his political activities. He was forced to resign from his position as Speaker of the House as a result of this illegality.
But everything else you said in your message about the US political system is correct.
Hello Ralphy,
Thank you for correcting me.
I mixed up the donations made towards the electoral process and to a 501(c) entity which espouses generic political causes with donations made to a political party.
Perhaps that is an other point where India should differ from the US. People in India pay politicians - that money should be kept above board and treated as a tax exempt transaction. As long as the donation is made visibly, and it is acknowledged by the politician - there is diminished danger of runaway corruption.
Rahul Gandhi's suggestion to make the Lokpal into a body like the ECI - more or less - sets the stage for the Lokpal institution to become the Indian equivalent of the Swedish "Constitutional Defence" office.
In general, I am sure you are aware, Indians tend to like Swedish stuff. India and Sweden have more in common by way of political structure than India and the US.
Another desirable aspect of the Lokpal institution in India is a blanket immunity from retroactive application of post Lokpal norms. Essentially, the Lokpal will have to agree to let bygones be bygones. This measure will save the Lokpal a lot of time and effort and make the passage of the bill more likely than less.
Far be it for me to stick up for MNCs or the Banking industry. After all, they pay very little in US federal income taxes and then at the slightest bit of trouble, i.e. Google in China, they ask for help from the US government. And apparently, I am the only US citizen that recognizes this aspect of "globalization is good for you" mantra that is constantly repeated by conservatives and liberals alike.
So it is with great trepidation that I am going to point out the BS metering is pinging when the lie is constantly repeated that western banks and governments have "stolen" Libya's money. Yes Libya's funds are frozen. But they will get those back.
However, Goldman Sachs lost most of a $billion + investment fund during the maket crash a few yew years back. And still charged steep fees for the service. I can't argue what a collapsed market will do to an investment fund but charging steep fees for the service is ridiculous. However, Goldman is in trouble with the SEC. Why, because Goldman offered to pay $50 million back to Libya to keep their account. That is a violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. I suspect Goldman had a kickback program to the Libyan authorities and those steep fees were part of the kickback process. I hope Goldman executives go to jail but nah, won't happen.
But anyway, the Libyan soverign fund is apparently in good shape. The third quater 2010 results shows the fund grew substantially overall despite the Goldman losses.
See http://tinyurl.com/6jcgkh7
But this won't change the Soviet supporters in BARF from retelling the lie.
>>>>> But this won't change the Soviet supporters in BARF from retelling the lie.
IMO, there is no need to invoke dishonesty, when simple ignorance or incompetence is sufficient.
In the nuke dhagaa, there were shrill voices of "let's just burn coal" ... here is a news item for the Barf geniacs and Sanku clones:
http://tinyurl.com/3ezs9rw
Now the BJP wants to take credit for the success of the Anna movement - Sanku is claiming that BJP stayed firm in its position on the Lokpal, but Team Anna changed position.
This suggests that Team Anna is taking direction from the BJP - and everything we have heard about team Anna representing "India" is bogus - and it really only represents the BJP?
So which is it - does Team Anna represent the BJP or India?
Can't have it both ways.
It is one or the other.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/the-diminishing-of-rahul-gandhi/articleshow/9782428.cms
Actually, I am confused about the claim that Rahul Gandhi's suggestion to make the Lokpal a constitutional body was "slammed" by politicians and Team Anna.
Team Anna welcomed the suggestion.
The political parties with the exception of the BJP responded favourably. The BJP quite understandably maintained a studied silence.
Yeh Aakashvaani hain...
The Lokpal cannot become
1) A Gestapo/SS which persecutes people on behalf of a despot.
2) An Ehtesab bureau which is used solely by political groups to score points off their opponents.
3) A Thought Police which seeks to sculpt society in an image of its choosing and uses thought crime as a way to subdue narratives it deems unhealthy for the nation.
4) A McCarthy era FBI/Department for the Preservation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice in the Taliban Government which goes after anyone it deems a threat to its own existence.
This is a lot of power to put into the hands of few people.
The standards have to be set really high.
Mave
I read your blog, please stop talking about Anna and BRF to preserve your intellectual credibility.
You have your agenda they have India’s. Both can co exist.
Well wisher
Dear Ralphdouble,
"I read your blog, please stop talking about Anna and BRF to preserve your intellectual credibility. You have your agenda they have India’s. Both can co exist. Well wisher"
Can you please drop the chai party antics? Sanku is a liability - you know it and the high command knows it.
Sankuisms open the door to the following questions -
Unless Anna is a BJP engineered provocation - why should the "credit" for his success go to the BJP?
If the BJP didn't create the Anna movement - then isn't the BJP's current shift (as outlined by Pranav in his response to Sanku) - simply a case of political bandwaggoning?
This is just one of the typical flaw in Sanku's perspective. The emphasis is on showing how far "ahead of the curve" one is and quite frankly directly insulting the intelligence of the rest of humanity.
I have less invested in my "intellectual" credibility with the Chai Party than you do.
So answer me if you have a shred of honesty left in you.
For the record, I am deeply saddened to see a viable political platform decorated with such a vast number of self-serving idiots. When Vajpayeeji was around this kind of rubbish was kept contained and such people were kept at an arms length. They were selectively permitted to enter the holy space but dared only to speak when spoken to.
Today - they walk in as they please and they they speak out of turn and in the name of venting "middle class" views - spout all manner of rubbish that comes out of their own asses.
These idiots are littering the policy sphere and making coherent statements about any policy matter impossible.
The least the guardians of the core can do is call these people out.
There is no substance in any of the party's statements - only angst. The whole party has become a mouthpiece for every stupid thing that a self-confessed "middle class" has to offer.
Outside of this class of idiots whose sole purpose is to vent on the internet - no one buys into this and whole of the rural population is slowly sliding into accepting the Maobadi perspective.
Is there anything specifically countering the Maobadi viewpoint? anything that addresses their views on a point by point basis and offers counterpoints?
How much internet pen and paper is expended on writing nasty things about the Gandhi family?
What is the use of a right wing if it can't confront the left wing?
Ralphysdouble,
Perhaps the Chai party's time would be more usefully spent devising a self-consistent position on the issue of corruption facing India.
The statements by Jaitley and Varun Gandhi can serve as a starting point for chai party ruminations but the chai party can feel free to come up with a Lokpal 2.0 version that is more suited for its agenda.
You know what the difference between the Chai Party and the Congress is?
When Rahul Gandhi makes a statement, the Congress makes sure that everyone sees it.
When Varun Gandhi or Arun Jaitley says something - not even the Chai Party gives it wide exposure. Instead they continue to gas off about unprovable allegations of graft against the Gandhi family.
I don't think the Chai Party realises that the only way that the Lokpal will get through parliament is with a blanket immunity for pre-Lokpal acts.
Heck right now - the entire defence procurement business has been "grandfathered" in.
How little fuss the Chai Party is making about that.
LOL ... Barf geniacs are discussing urdu ...
Neelam ho rahaa thaa kisi naazaneen ka pyaar
Qimat nahin chukaai gai ik garib sae
...
dekhaa hai zindagi ko kuch itnaa karib sae
Every time I travel to Lucknow, it is a pleasure to listen to Persianized Urdu from old folks (Hindoo folks, tauba tauba) ... we folks view it as cultural heritage ... and I am quite sad to see that it is disappearing with the new generation ...
I was there last month and had my fill from one such elderly gentleman who was unassuming and patiently explained the words to me ... a pleasure beyond description ...
of course, Barf saffron chaddhiwallahs view it as ugly and would like to see it eliminated as a "purification" of India ... what is the difference between Taliban and Barf geniacs?
The DCH crowd is bad enough, period ... but when it dons the saffron chaddis, it is insufferable ... what I wish I could give these jokers a glimpse of when India was a different country ... but alas, it is too late ... my parting shot:
Jo chaman fizaa mein ujad gaya
Main ussi ki fasl-e-bahaar hoon
Miscellaneous Geniacs,
Please watch this:
http://tinyurl.com/3td8rw3
and then tell me whether it is,
a) Hindoo
b) Moozlim
c) Indian
There were times like this, difficult as it may be for the DCH generation to fathom.
LOL ... a B movie by IS Johar ... but a great quwalli . today, he will be wajib-ul-qatl ... enjoy:
http://tinyurl.com/3fqe5d7
The DCH on the forum are too easily led by the Chai Party folks.
The Chai Party seems to have no agenda other than to rabble rouse.
So far I have not seen a coherent statement out of the Chai Party on the corruption issue or any other issue for that matter.
Whenever anything comes up - the Chai Party simply increases the volume of anti-MMS and anti-Gandhi family posts. The idea is to give an impression that only the Gandhi family and the Congress are doing "corruption" - rest of the folks are all fine.
The result is a selective and unsustainable blindness to the acts of the Chai Party's own political favourites.
Urdu, Muslims, any one who stands in the Chai Party's way is simply a convenient point to redirect DCH anger.
Right now Arundhati Roy has made a clear and cogent argument against the Lokpal institution. She has termed it a dangerously powerful bureaucracy to set up. I don't like Arundhati much but - she has at least made a coherent argument.
The Chai Party has offered nothing in response to that. Everything is reduced to calling Arundhati names. That kind of behaviour is tantamount to the Chai Party admitting that Arundhati's points are valid.
It would be very bad if the Chai Party people were dumb enough to start believing their own Sankuisms. It is very dangerous when you start shooting up on the stuff you sell.
Ah --- when discussions turn to issues...
the all too deafening silence from Ralphysdouble.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2011/08/18/lockheed-martin-presents-airship-of-the?videoId=218454698
This I like.
http://tinyurl.com/singhizking
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/9/1/government-tea-nbsp-india/
A perspective from the Harvard Crimson.
I should read this paper more often.
> Ummeed-e-Milaap
What Sudeep? - the slightest sign of trouble and you run to write a letter to Shavey?
Were you one of the people that helped organise the DOSA's daughter's arengatram with NSS resources? Tera HP hai kya DOSA?
You are beginning to sound like a guy whose hostel room I bugged.
FWIW - when Techfest was first concieved, I was asked to lead it. I refused because I felt that the people who had proposed the idea were more suitable for the job. I am happy to report that they did a far better job than I would ever have. I am amazed at what it has become - I am glad I kept the usual MI types out of it.
I support Ummeed-e-Milaap. It is important that Indians and Pakistanis converse in a context where the Pakistani is not hanging upside down bleeding onto the floor.
Mav,
I did post on BARF about the similarity between the Tea Party and the Annistas (copyright Sugriva) yesterday... Dunno if you saw that...
Dear Sugriva,
I didn't see the post on the forum.
I think the term Chai Party may have been coined by Dilbert.
But - I think Ms Tarina Quraishi has just put the phrase into prime time.
Seigfried S. Heckler- former dir. LANL in Phys. Today.
"My visits to India, by contrast (to Pakistan) proved quite productive. ... I toured Indian commercial nuclear facilities and I learned about their ambitious three state nuclear energy program. I found superbly trained community of nuclear scientists and engineers with a passion for nuclear energy..."
"Constrained by sanctions, India developed most of its nuclear energy capabilities indigenously, especially its excellent nuclear R&D; the extent of functionality of its nuclear experimental facilities are matched only by those in Russia and are far ahead of what is left in the US. "
"I believe India has the most technically ambitious and innovative nuclear energy program in the world. Our government has been concerned about the leakage of US nuclear technologies to India, when we should instead be trying to learn from that country."
Yeah, maybe your guys can teach our sub nuke guys a thing or two about powerplants.
"I think the term Chai Party may have been coined by Dilbert."
No, I didn't coin the term "Chai Party" (although I like it). What I called them was "TBRF", i.e. the Teabaggers of BRF. What I remarked on, about a year or so ago, was the striking similarity between the ignorant, self-righteous and bigoted rants of the two groups: the TBRF and the real Teabaggers (in the good old US of A).
These TBRF arseholes think they are being so bold and "speaking truth to power" when they denounce Democrats, "Kaangress walas", labour unions etc. and openly admire robber-baron capitalists and Glen Beck types.
It's unfortunate. There are still many reasonable and intelligent posters, of course, but by and large, most political threads have become nasty, venomous places for ignorant gasbags to vent their spleen. The idiots were so shocked and horrified when B.Raman referred to BRF as "a Hindutva website" (or words to that effect).
LOL, here is a proposed BRF "mission statement" from some genius on the TSP thread:
"BRF has to move from being just another forum into one that truly disseminates nationalist thought and that starts with open criticism of the traitors in power. Let there be no one on this forum ever again who supports the INC."
So there you have it, a blunt and accurate summary of the direction in which the forum has been heading for the past few years: MMS and the INC are traitors and BRF's mission should be to defeat them. Further, any BRFite who disagrees with this mission should be kicked off the forum.
Mustn't forget the Christians who are taking over Indian culture either. Verry important! You know, Christian values like MNC greed, call center zombyism, COBOL coding commando tatics, medical transcription slavery, and pharmaceutical reverse engineering guerilla warfare. Yup, read about it in BARF first, then it goes global. Prescient!
The remaining difference between Barf and Def'n'Dumb is better grammar.
The new leaked cable doesn't have any big surprises. One statement I found puzzling was from Clinton: "China's interest in Af-Pak is purely economical" ... why would she think so?
http://www.onorbit.com/node/3775
interesting picture ... looks doctored to me (i.e., enhanced)
SSridhar on barf concludes thusly:
"I therefore think that our planning should be to consider PRC-TSP as just one entity rather than splitting hair on which is a bigger threat because TSP is now subsumed by PRC."
Hello? Have you been sleeping?
I recall posting this same point on Mav's blog a couple of years ago. Nitin Pai from Pragati (who apparently reads this blog) asked me to write an article for him on this topic, but I was too busy.
Barf, "behind the curve by tubelight speed".
^^^ and I am quite sure that those who matter in India have had this attitude for a long time, DCH bunnies notwithstanding.
aah, the geniac brigade has opened a new dhagaa on matters-e-nuclaire, led by SME Sanku-ji ...
dang! I gave 3 lectures at IISc last month and nary a wee dhagaa for me ... but then it is so much fun to read things like this:
"A large portion of the research at CERN is done by Indian citizen scientists in India. If you look at any research journal in nuclear physics India scientists are the largest contributors."
These Indians are so advanced that they have managed to change skin color and hair color also ... which is why you don't see that wave of brown at CERN.
Mav,
I finally read the Hecker article. Fascinating details about USSR.
I found this sentence intriguing:
"But Pakistan’s nuclear scientific
community is not accessible, and the problems are difficult and extremely sensitive politically."
My guess is that Pakistan is worried about having the paint job team meet someone like Hecker :)
interesting contrast:
1. B. Karnad is being worshiped
while,
2. B. Raman is being tarred
A nuclear mutiny in India anyone?
I think the scientists should simply go ahead and do the tests, preparing for the tests in secret. Without the Prime Minister's approval.
Just after tests, one can either tell the PM to partake in the glory and own up to the tests and protect those who did it or make himself the international butt of jokes that he doesn't know what is going on in the country, and GoI has no control over the nuclear weapons program.
^^^ as I said, this could be deaf'n'dumb except for the grammar.
Negi/powerslave-ji,
>>> how many posters post here on BRF and how many does it take to make it a BRF's pov ?
It takes only 3 - one IsharaMaster, one Nishanebaaz side-kick and one Sanku-ji.
After the 3 have done it, a dozen vuvuzelas seal the deal.
Mav,
You really do need the ROFL emoticon here. True to form, the new dhagaa has evolved to its natural conclusion ... now we have a tunnel from VA to CO, and a nuclear attack on this facility ...
even with better grammar, this one takes the cake from deaf'n'dumb :-)))
Negi-ji,
Here is JEM explaining it (I hope you get the isharaa):
Having said that, it would be equally viable to accuse a group of posters on BRF, from a certain area distribution in the US, of ganging up together to bombard the forum with posts that shift its basically centrist orientation (with occasional swings either to the left or right) permanently in one direction. It would be quite viable to make the case, that there are some who wish to make the tilt in one direction permanent and that an understanding has been reached in this regard. It could be said also that fairly well considered attempts at covering tracks are not wholly under the radar.
Ralphy,
DAE doesn't know anything about sub nukes or about mass producing anything.
What they know about is experimentation and power cores.
They know an ungodly amount about taking a brand new idea for a power core from the lab to an actual prototype.
They are up for sharing and collaborating - provided all the NPA hangups are set aside.
The Chai Party on the forum is again running away from issues again.
I asked them to clearly articulate a position on the Lokpal issue in the form of a single coherent document.
They don't have it in them to do that.
When it comes to making a fuss the "Chai Party" is ahead of the curve - everywhere else - it is behind.
These people aren't going to be political force - they are all talk and no work.
These blasts are timed to disrupt India-Bangladesh talks.
> disrupt India Bangladesh talks
Yes - that is most likely true.
That actually falls well within the broad interests of Pakistani national security policy.
A strengthening of India Bangladesh ties would inevitably increase the drive in Bangladesh towards War Crimes trials.
That is a prospect that the Pakistani Army does not want to face.
To that end - anything they can do to stop India and Bangladesh from finding common ground on key issues - they will do.
I think the HuJI email to about wanting to see Afzal Guru released is just another advertising ploy. The real target is India-Bangladesh harmony.
The interesting tidbit that has leaked in the media is the phone call from the military camp in Islamabad to one Neeraj in NOIDA area - is interesting. It appears someone in Islamabad was warning Delhi Police of an imminent attack. It could be the ID was spoofed - but that would be an interesting step to take - to go to all that trouble to say "Pakistan tried to help....".
interesting....
For the first time you are not on target.
Its the making of Chaiparty and BJP. The reddy affair in Karnataka, Sushma Swaraj et all are involved in this blast. This Dhaka talks are diversionary tactics when visionary MMS is about to create history and peace is about to be unleashed atleast on the eastern front...
PC should arrest all cheddi walas.
Sorry for the rant.
Ralphysdouble,
I don't know who is responsible and I am speculating.
If you know who is responsible for the blast - why don't you go tell the Delhi Police?
Why do you persist in wasting space on my blog?
Or is it that difficult to do something relevant to do with your time?
BTW - I should tell you right now - you'll hear it anyway - I am keen to suggest that the Forum Admin prepare a list of posters to be removed because of the the disruptive political influence they exert on the forum.
This list should be pinned to the top of the forum and when the people on this black list cross a line - they should be permanently banned.
Hopefully seeing their names published on a black list like that will bring these people to their senses and they will stand contributing something vaguely useful for a change.
This is a variation of the photo board technique used by Sri. KPS Gill during the Khalistan crisis. He used to have a board in each police station where photos of the most undesirable persons were placed. After these people were "encountered", the SHO would put a big red "X" mark on the photo. This policy improved the quality of law enforcement greatly and sent a clear message to the criminals parading as Khalistani nationalists.
I think we could see similar benefits on the forum as well.
I thought I should run this by you before I make the suggestions to the Forum Admin. I didn't want to make it look like I was going behind peoples' backs.
I love the way the forum herrows react to "strong words" by NaMo and "weak statements" by MHA.
Why will MKN want to come back?
Besides abuse what did you ever heap on him?
"Le Monde's prediction about MMS..."
Why go to fancy-shmancy Le Monde, I'll make a prediction right here for you...
Someday it will emerge that all the forum herrows were agents of the Illuminati who were trying to take over the world by annoying the crap out of their fellow forumites.
I am now deeply uncomfortable with Dr. Karnad. My unease has been building for a few years - but now I am no longer sure which side he is on.
Wrt to Ramana's point about Teller - it helps to recount the entire story of the TNW initiatives in the US.
It is widely acknowledged that Teller's personal quest for glory played a very great role in his aggressive push for the H-bomb. This same tendency was on display in during the Star Wars initiative in the Reagan era. Fortunately for the Americans, their congress was not going to be fooled by Dr. Teller twice!
The H-bomb was one in a long list of nasty things that can be done with nuclear reactions, and Teller was one of many dangerous intellectuals at the time.
Were the *TN Warheads* built as a result of Teller's push any more reliable than the fission ones created by Oppenhiemer's team?
That is a question has no answer. So trying to justify a shift towards testing of TNWs on efficiency grounds is rubbish! This was clarified in the discussions led by Arun and there is no point in bringing this up again.
All those arguments Arun pulled out about the need to control RHD etc... were relevant only if it was true that a TNW is more effective than its fission counterpart. Otherwise none of that stuff matters.
I still do not know what possessed Arun to talk about matters pertaining to nuclear weapons design and construction in a public forum. I don't know why he forgot that even if you accidentally hear something - you have an obligation to shut up about it.
Teller used the Red scare in the US to push his agenda - just as Secy. Brynes used the fear of Japan to push his agenda for nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki before him.
If the forum herrows keep trying to walk in Teller's footsteps, the options for dealing with them will become quite narrow.
Oh one more thing.
Common sense dictates *whatever* AM Asthana and his successors say is *OFF LIMITS* for public discussion unless it is specifically aimed at a member of the public in a public forum.
Essentially where chief SFC is concerned, no member of the general public will speak unless spoken to.
Democracy and all that has its place - but on certain matters there is to be no confusion.
As it is for an ordinary judge, so it is for someone in AM Asthana's position.
Most people have the common sense and decency to understand this - but clearly this has to be explained to the forum herrows!!
Dear Kanson,
Ramana's position on the TN test of 1998 is wildly inconsistent.
When it suited the BJP's political fortunes, Ramana went to great lengths to support the idea of a successful nuclear test. Arun did the same thing.
When the Congress went to effect the nuclear deal and it looked lik the BJP's fortunes were on the decline. Ramana threw his lot in with the people that said the test failed.
If Mr. Nitin Gadkari becomes prime minister tomorrow and establishes a computer farm at CAT-Indore filled with Bot infested computers, I feel Ramana will promptly switch sides to those saying that the TN test in 1998 was a success.
I doubt you will ever get him to come clean on what his true position is.
To Shiv's paraphrasing of Shri Karnad's quote, "it has a 99 % probability of yielding 25 kt, 90% probability of yielding at least 50kt and only a 60% probability of yielding 200 kt", our dear Isharamaster replies, "If things were normal distribution then such percentages are meaningful. Otherwise its a shot in the dark like the 2008 meltdown".
Why is that sir? Is it because the normal distribution is the onlee non-treacherously linear distribution out there?
:)
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/09/mcchrystal-network/all/1
"The network McChrystal built, McRaven enhanced and Votel inherits comes in stark contrast to the rest of the U.S. security bureaucracy, which Priest and Arkin call “Top Secret America” and which remains disconnected, bloated and expensive. Priest and Arkin bluntly conclude that McChrystal turned JSOC around “by outright rejecting at least four of Top Secret America’s defining characteristics: its enormous size, its counterproductive duplication, its internal secrecy, and its old-fashioned, hierarchical structure.” What the post-9/11 reforms failed to accomplish across the sprawling national security apparatus, McChrystal did in miniature."
LOL...
Is there a difference between linear treachery and non-linear treachery?
>>It takes only 3 - one IsharaMaster, one Nishanebaaz side-kick and one Sanku-ji.
This was predicted by Rastra-Kavi decades ago:
गुरु प्रभु सिक्षा दें उन्हें तो, लोग करते 'अर्चना'.
गेरो न संकू को हमारे, छेड़ना उसको मना.
विज्ञान तेरा, नाश हो, बम का फिज़ल तुमसे बना.
रे मूर्खते जीवित रहो, रक्षक तुम्हारे ' रामना. '
nice...
LOL, Ginc-ji ...
that is quartic-ally treacherous :)
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