An open letter - A need to moderate extremists on the forum
Dear Friends,I hope this post finds you all in good health.
I am writing to you to draw your attention towards what I feel are the falling standards on the forum. I am sure you are well aware of some of these things but I fear the magnitude of this problem is poorly understood.
My sense of discomfort with this reached a peak with that behead4peace list that a poster put up. I watched in great dismay that so many people actually added names to the list and patted each other on the back before finally *one* member said something bad about it. This is where the forum is now.
Scarcely a day goes by without a serving or retired government official being abused on the forum. Even those in the highest offices of the land are accused of all manner of treachery without a shred of proof. The most common norms of decency and decorum are completely rejected in favour of passion and vituperation.
The exact posters who persist in such bad habits are well known. They have made a name for themselves by politisising debate on key issues pertaining to national security. Everything is being turned into a Congress v/s BJP drama, and frankly people like me don't care for that.
To sensible people, the forum is a place to come and read interesting tidbits of news - a place to come and learn, possibly have an interesting discussion on matters of a topical nature. It is also a place to come a celebrate the act of being Indian. There are very few places left where this can be done now - the destructive media culture in India has wiped most of the places out. And so that is why - the forum to most of us is such a vital space.
Having the malcontent keep talking is always a good idea - that way if something utterly nasty is boiling underneath - we can first hear it from the horse's mouth - and I understand that point of view.
However allowing a form of destructive debate to dominate the forum, indeed force sensible posters to leave is not a good idea. It creates a situation where the lunatics are given the key to the asylum. (copyright Dilbert)
We in India are a very liberal people - we tolerate all manner of misbehaviour - but we all understand when someone goes too far.
Allow me to briefly recall the case of the assembly elections in Punjab in 1990. As I am sure you remember the GoI had declared a general amnesty and terrorists, criminals and history sheeters roamed the streets canvassing for votes and demanding all manner of money from ordinary people. Prior to the election the levels of violence reached truly staggering levels and the GoI was forced to cancel the election because too many candidates were killed by extremists. At that point in time, Prime Minister Narasimha Rao, instructed the relevant secretaries of the cabinet to take whatever action was necessary to prevent a repeat of the cancellation. Not long after Sri. K P. S. Gill was given a green light to undertake police operations necessary to reduce violent crime in the region.
I think we are at a similar point on the forum. A clean up is overdue. Too many good posters have been driven off by a steady stream of nonsense from the extremists and the idea of keeping the extremists talking has reached the end of its utility.
Balance has to be restored.
To borrow the phrase of Inspector Pandit in the movie Maqbool... "Shakti ka santulan avashyak hain sansar mein... aag ko pani ka dar bane rehna chahiye..."
Jai Hind,
Maverick
ps.Blogger is malfunctioning. Here is a link to the latest comment on this topic.
posted by maverick @ 12:21 PM
2514 Comments:
Well put by Tanaji:
"The assumption that DAE is populated by idiots ... may be alluring to you but is untrue."
There is no cure to the disease referenced above ...
Hello,
I can fully understand if Dr. Subramaniam Swamy is going around the US stirring the pot with all sorts of statements.
But if he wants his views spread across the universe, he can do it himself - he certainly has access to all the media channels.
There is no need for subterfuge and there is absolutely no need for every discussion in the forum to be turned into a discussion about Dr. Subramaniam Swamy's unique views.
There is more to India than Dr. Subramaniam Swamy.
The rest of us would appreciate it if we could carry out our discussions in peace without having to listen to his third hand views being paraded before us.
Mav, (and brf lurkers):
As a long time observer of that forum, it is clear that the situation there is nothing short of disgusting.
Behead4peace type messages are not exceptions there. Gaalis to anyone who is different is norm.
Some of the reason these type of vile messages remain there for long time, or even permanently are:
1. They are sometimes endorsed by admins or the posters have, as someone put it, abhay daan .
2. A person who may report vile posts or comments about it will be vilified.
3. Admins are too busy doing lathi-charge on sane people. We have seen a recent example where Ramana, Archan, Rahul, Jagan, Suraj (in addition to the what looks like a lynch mob of other members) all went after one poster's post originated in Nuke dhaga.
Funny part is they all take turn in doing dadagiri and using gaalis in addition to giving additional warnings, if a person as much as choose to reply.
4. Lack of respect for diverse views or members. One does not (or no longer) sees too many scientists, people with non-sanskrit names, women, non-believers in astrology, etc there for the obvious reason... so they may not even realize that posts are offensive.
Prof said:
>>There is no cure to the disease referenced above
Some think the disease is due to all that pico-rem of radiation from Fukushima carried to India by the Vatican and CIA spending 1000 crore...
At least that is what geniacs of brf tells that. (kid you not)..if you contest that, you will be lathi-charged (kid you not :) )
Even Jihn-physixx and Paki CT is not that profound.
:(
...and they're still crying over Qaddafi.... oh the inhumanity! not fair ! not fair!
m.indianexpress.com/story_mobile.php?storyid=865026.
$25m of Heroin seized near Punjab border. FYI
Dear Rohbutt,
Thank you for that update.
Fake currency, a car filled with explosives in Ambala and now this drug bust at the border.
I have very mixed feelings about this formula 1 grand prix in India.
very mixed feelings.
One thing that stands out for me in this F1 story is the efficiency with which the F1 track and stadium was built and made ready for operation. Contrast that with how CWG preparations were done. I feel there is a lesson to be learnt here. How about more participation from private sector in the defense industry? 100% FDI?
What would the Buddha say about an F1 track named after him?
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Mav to quote the very namoonas whom you defend here "Bade bade shehron mein aisi choti moti bate hoti rehti hain" a politician can say the same after over hundred were killed a day before or even better "Even a dog would not have visited his house" when Major Unnikrishnan's father refused to meet another such chootiy@ ; then on what basis is this sermon of using civil language being given here ? Haven't you guys witnessed the kind of filth being thrown in the assembly ? Ma-behan se niche koi baat hi karta wahan.
As for your point about behead4peace or whatever ; I would only quote you "that's merely a distraction".
LoL
Hello,
My problem is not the efficiency with which things are done.
For example I am convinced that most of the $400 Million human trafficking business in Bombay is run very efficiently... but... you get my drift.
I am concerned about the message this sends.
Yes - the automobile industry in India is growing and it is a major employer and wealth generator. Also a lot more Indians are trying to buy automobiles and clearly physical mobility of resources in India is crucial to building the new economy.
However, F1 simply emphasises speed.
We need something that emphasises efficiency.
If we stick with F1 as the gold standard for what the new customers want out of automobiles, then we are setting ourselves up for a fall here.
We do not want Indian automobile manufacturers to be drawn to speed and power as an essential component of automotive design - we want them to be drawn to lower C02 emissions and higher efficiency engines.
Only then does it make sense to have an F1 track named after Gautam Buddha... otherwise it may be best to name it Buddhu track instead.
Dear Powerslave,
As I acknowledged in my blog post, a destructive criticism culture has taken hold in India due to the media emphasising impact instead of content.
And as I say in the post - that is precisely is why places like the forum constitute an almost sacred space.
There are very few places where the sane can still come to talk about what really matters in India.
And now that space is also being lost - increasing clogged by the same culture of curse and conspiracy theory that baffles everything else in India.
Dear Powerslave,
I wish to point out what appear to me to be the most important issues facing India's national security.
1) The inflationary pressures building up in the economy - The RBI and key economic institutions are having a very hard time keeping abreast of this. We have had to simply accept double digit inflation as a fact of life.
2) The systematic oppression of the lower echelons of Indian society by the "Middle" - Large numbers of Indians, of tribal, "lower caste", poor backgrounds are being systematically deprived of their rights by a social and government machinery that thinks of them as vermin. Their lands and habitats are taken away by criminal cartels that subvert government machinery to achieve their nefarious aims. In general, there is no place in "Shining India" for these people and the prospect of a genocide of these people looms over the democracy.
Neither of these problems are being discussed on the forum.
People are discussing the symptoms of these ailments - the Maoist menace, and the Anna agitation, (that too in a far far too politically motivated fashion) - but no one dares to address the cause.
This is a glaring example of where the forum is falling woefully short of India's needs.
This is an example of where extremists driving away sensible people is to the detriment of the forum.
My questions are simple..
If as a sensible person you have pour several years of your life into making the forum a palatable place to discuss matters of national importance... why should you stand idly by as an extremist pretending to be religious nationalist trashes the place.
Why are you obligated to shut up and put up with such a poster's rubbish?
Why can't the moderation control these people?
Do the moderates have to launch an Anna style Satyagraha to get the moderation to control the extremists?
Why is that after all the damage these fake patriots have caused to India - these people are still allowed so much latitude on the forum?
Is the forum simply another mouthpiece for extremists? - I thought they had their own forum? wasn't that the logic behind India-Forum? - so why are these people being allowed to trash BR?
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"neither of these problems are being discussed on the forum"
Because the forum does not have you there. And those on the forum differ from you in perception. It is very funny that you wish to influence the way forum thinks by constantly ranting about it on your blog. If you were truly valuable in terms of thoughts you would not care about the forum but the forum would care about you.
simple question is what locus standi you have to discuss anything on the forum, as the forum is not yours and nor does it claim to be. its just a website start your own. in terms of extremists, there is no difference between you and india forum types. both of you are unwelcome on forum or are not popular there.
As we all know, the poet laureate
said almost a century ago..
How true!
जब रक्षक भक्षक बनते है,
अरु बाड़ खेत को खाती है
अश्लील जंगली शब्दों में
सब शिक्षाएं दी जाती है.
ज्ञानी की होती है निंदा.
मूर्खो का होता हैं पूजन.
अंबर झूठे, राहुल सच्चे,
गुरुप्रभु चुप, भोंके अर्चन.
Dear Ram,
I am merely an outside observer of the forum culture. My view matters only as long as it resonates with the forumites.
We are having this discussion only because moderates feel that they are being ejected from the forum by extremists and because the extremists are celebrating their success at repelling moderates from the forum.
That is why my comments are relevant.
Respectfully - I think you are missing my point.
A great number of the people that are leaving have spent time making the forum a place where serious discussion could be had.
When you have a bunch of people who have never contributed anything to the forum but extremist nonsense...pushing away people that have - then we have a problem.
Too often we have seen this cycle happen - a sensible member posts something, the extremists attack him and create a disruption and the moderation responds by castigating the sensible poster and strangely the extremist walks away on a round of applause from friends on the forum.
At the end of several such cycle - the sensible folk simply leave. Behind the forum's back the word goes out - the forum is mouthpiece of a particular political party and that it (not so) secretly endorses an extremist agenda.
This is not an environment suitable for reasonable debate.
I am a reformist and India Forum is a bunch of Pakistani-style separatists who want to supplant BR as the place to discuss matters on national security. I believe in the forum being the right place - they do not.
So there is absolutely no comparison between India Forum and my blog.
My request to the Admin team is that the extremists be controlled - specifically I want to remind Ramana that there is little to be gained by courting extremists beyond a point. I strongly feel Ramana went overboard with that "Moral Compass" comment, it amounts to giving extremists an undue moral ascendancy on the forum. This is fraught with negative implications - it is going to bring the crazies out of the woodwork. I forsee yet another Ravi CV type fiasco in the near future if this is allowed to continue. After we lost Arun S, to that mess, I decided I would never let things slide that far again.
I am all for involving extremists in dialogue - heck the forum is a place of education for all - but you can't have a situation where extremists gang up and eject moderates.
The moderation has to step in that point.
You simply cannot give the lunatics the key to the asylum the way Ramana has done with his "Moral Compass" comments.
On my first day on the forum, I started a thread calling for the creation of a Defence Intelligence Agency to coordinate the handling of techint for the armed forces. As I was much younger then - I posted with great passion and Ramana corrected my foul language. I obeyed his direction at that time.
I don't know why he has stopped doing that to others. I wish he would start doing that - I think if he departs from his current path of concord with extremists - the path to sanity in the forum would re-emerge.
Some of us would like to be able to read the forum and not have to wade through libelous insults and unfounded allegations about the PM, his staff, Sonia Gandhi, Rahul etc...
If we wanted to read that we would go listen to Dr. Subramaniam Swamy or better still go to a Pakistani website. This doesn't belong on BR.
And most of us would greatly appreciate if Ramana helped control this kind of behaviour instead of encouraging the miscreants with notions of moral superiority.
Dear Ram,
FWIW - in case memories have grown faint... here is a small refresher.
My first thread on the forum was a passionate request to set up a DIA that would process technical inputs come from NRSA, DIPAC, ARC and the (late) RRS for dissemination to the military commanders.
I had just heard a number of chaiwallahs complaining about the lack of information transport between the 8th Floor of Lodhi road and Kashmir House.
I didn't know who was responsible, but I was quite pissed because I came to hear that a number of Mavericks' had been killed in extremely long range recon patrols.
I made my anger clear in that first post, the language was quite strong and I meant almost every word I said.
At that point Ramana stepped in and as me to moderate my tone as it detracted from the value of the points I was making.
At that time I was the extremist. My first thread was posted almost a year to the day the KRC Report recommended the formation of a DIA and almost two years before Gen. Davar took command of the organisation. A number of people thought I was one of those uber-right wing nutjobs who wanted to take power away from the civilians and give it to the vardiwalle. People even thought - quite incorrectly that - I had a negative opinion the residents of the 8th floor.
I listened and obeyed Ramana's command. He was the administrator and I was just a common poster then.
I really wish those days would return and he would correct the extremists again.
mavaerick, the point remains. BRF does not want you anywmore so why r u fixating your life on that forum? go do something else. your moderate voice, extremist voice just sounds like hogwash. any forum is the people. majority of ppl in india are worried about gross incompetebnce of UPA and its antics and will attack it online. u privileged NRIs are different.
you are showing signs of fascism here, you want discussions to be one way, pick on people of another view call them extremist, support the state unthinkingly....all these show you to be a control freak. if you were on the forum youdneed moderation help to survive. clearly, you are no longer of the type BRF respects or even identifies itself as. so to expect the mods to make BRF Mav friendly and discuss the topics you like, is a bit too much
let forum go and do yoga or something.
subramaniam swamy blew up the 2G scam despite death threats and all. to many everyday indians he is now a hero. you INC NRIs may hate him, but he is an important man saying important things. not allmay be true, but many are leading to investigations which determine the truth. sorry maverick, you are coming as a cent per cent congress ka chamcha who wants the BRForum keys to be handed back to you after running out the other admins. First Shiv. Then ArunS. Now Ramana so entire old guard is out, you'll try to get back to brf. nice attempt but it wont happen. you have made your lust for power and political control freak desires too apparent.
"I am a reformist and India Forum is a bunch of Pakistani-style separatists who want to supplant BR as the place to discuss matters on national security. I believe in the forum being the right place - they do not.
So there is absolutely no comparison between India Forum and my blog."
what difference.they went and created a site where ppl fromk BRF participate on the controversial topics and post on BRF as well. they dont spend time ranting on BRF.
In ur blog, you obsess unhealthily over BRF as it is your one possession that got away from you, and you want it back, somesomewhere and present admins are not doing the job you want them to do.
not much difference. at least the IG guys are happy in their own siter and dont spend trashtalking ppl who dont care about then? lurking BRF shows only one amber despararely putting ur blg everyplace. ppl were even then generally not bothered.
grow up guys and stop your ego-battles abput the best mod and how unfair it was for you to leave, etc etc. its done. time for you toget lostand do something of ur life not sit and bitch and moan ion the internets
Ram, Ram, ji ...
look in a mirror ... the ony personal comments I see are from you. Others are talking about general trends ...
commenting on public expression of extremism is not "ranting" ...
however, your diatribe above certainly qualifies ...
are you offended at being called an extremist?
speaking of general trends ...
some of us had warned that spewing ignorant nonsense (in the media and on public forums) about nuclear matters will have a severe effect on the public mind ...
the protests in the south have taken over ... it is now too late to talk sense ... irrational fear has won the day.
GinC ji,
excellent stuff ... had no clue where it was going until I reached the third couplet ... :)
Ram, Ram, ji,
>>> u privileged NRIs are different.
yes. we are privileged enough to enjoy nuclear electricity ...
some of my cousins in India are privileged enough to generate their own electricity by burning diesel ...
my other cousins are privileged enough to derive their energy from the purest Hindutva-approved source ... oh yes, I do know the cow dung patty technology ...
How do you get your electricity, Ram ji?
Hello!
I was not referring to your problem with F1! It was just an observation. Efficiency of human trafficking in Mumbai has got nothing to do with what I wrote i.e. contrast between project executions of CWG and F1.
Speed is just one part of F1. Please read this to find more info -
http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/07/10-geeky-reasons-you-should-be-watching-formula-one/
F1 in Europe has not stopped automobile manufacturers there from coming up with fuel efficient vehicles. Govt can always force auto manufacturers to come up
with fuel efficient automobiles through regulation.
So I think you are exaggerating when you express concern about the effect of F1 in India.
Posting after a long time in Mav’s blog. Couldn’t resist after reading the gems from Ram.
what difference.they went and created a site where ppl fromk BRF participate on the controversial topics and post on BRF as well. they dont spend time ranting on BRF.
Ram I think you should go and spend some time on the forum in question to find out who some of the luminaries there and then check if they post on BRF or not. Otherwise your statement sounds a bit silly.
mavaerick, the point remains. BRF does not want you anywmore so why r u fixating your life on that forum? go do something else. your moderate voice, extremist voice just sounds like hogwash. any forum is the people. majority of ppl in india are worried about gross incompetebnce of UPA and its antics and will attack it online.
Interesting point. You say BRF does not want you (that is Maverick) any more. Now how do you jump to this conclusion? Unless you are the owner of BRF or a duly appointed representative of the owner and/or moderator how can we take it that you speak for BRF? You need to clear up your locus standi before you can expect to get away with such comments and not be called a fascist yourself.
The more important question that BRF owners and moderators need to answer is what exactly does the forum stand for?
Is it a forum where Indians from all over the world and of all persuasions come and discuss their view on issues pertaining to the country while maintaining certain decorum and following forum guidelines?
Or is it a place where Indians with only one particular POV come and pontificate with others who share the exactly the same POV?
Being a long-term lurker I think that’s important considering the treatment meted out the Somnath the original victim of the moral lodestone on which Ramana sits while pontificating.
Somnath was a prolific poster on the forum participating in a huge variety of thread. And I must say some of his views were pretty radical diametrically opposed to my own POV, for example his views on the Maoist insurgency.
However, he never used a bad word, never foul mouthed any poster even though he was constantly subjected to ad hominem attack by the likes of Sanku and others. His posts were matter of fact and he pulled references which apparently supported his posts.
Now it’s perfectly understandable that many BRF posters including Ramana and his acolytes do not share Somnath’s worldview. However, whether anyone likes it or not his worldview on various issues affecting India is shared by many other Indians and many of them read BRF.
So it was essentially a clash of ideas if you will. The best way to control Somnath would have been to fight his ideas, views and references with counter ideas, views and references. And then let the more compelling POV win the day.
In the years past we’ve seen this happen countless times and people like N^3 and others have destroyed the credibility of many posters who have tried to come and sell an alternative POV and did it entirely with their debating skills and knowledge base.
Instead of doing that we have the stupid “moral compass” comment and Somnath was told to leave. To many who followed the entire proceeding and the post facto justification for the “moral compass” it would seem that here was a poster who was too hot to handle for BRF because they could not counter his reasoning, logic and rhetoric.
Ram ji since you claim to speak for BRF, perhaps you should reflect on these points and then write a nice little ramble.
And finally regarding the lunatic fringe, let me make a prediction.
When the next reshuffle of admins take place I bet that the great Sanku will become and Adminullah!
Anyone want to make a $1 bet on that?
When that happens it will be a great day of reunification - between the Pak Deaf and Dumb and BRF. :)
I like the way folks freely use the word 'extremist' on this forum for anyone who does not agree with their worldview !! Is there a definition being used, or its basically subject to Mav or GinC's whims and fancies?
^^^ my definition ...
extremist == one who has his nose buried in his moral compass, while negotiating a minefield of reality, on his way to the beheading for peace event.
Bemused,
There is this admin fella on def 'n' dumb called "PS:Annonymous" ... doppleganger for Sanku-ji ... I can't throw a good $ on your sure shot bet.
I can't throw a good $ on your sure shot bet.
Prof, you are a wise man! :)
Very enlightening, Mani !!
I am sure BRF misses your incisive and deeply logical definitions post your departure :)
But seriously - just so we are clear what the fundamental issue is really about, and since Mav's letter stresses on 'extremists' taking over BRF - can we understand how precisely you define an 'extremist' whose posting privileges on BRF you want curtailed?
>>>> how precisely you define an 'extremist' whose posting privileges on BRF you want curtailed?
This is where I differ with Mav ...
I don't want any curtailment-shirtailment ...
I want more entertainment ... let their tribe grow ...
Barf and Def 'n' Dumb deserve a perfect == opportunity ...
just on cue, there is a joker on nuke dhagaa who thinks that GOI makes its policy after reading Barf ...
why curtail just geniacs?
Bemused,
Here is a dhagaa on def 'n' dumb ... it has not seen even one post in the 6 weeks since it was started:
http://tinyurl.com/3h2gl5v
those geniacs have their own version of moral compass, don't they?
Prof I see a great consulting opportunity. Barf experts can help Deaf and Dumb identify the YYY conspiracy behind 9/11.
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And yes regarding moral compasses. All of them point to one morally correct direction. So D&D's moral compass and the Barf compass point to the same mother lode. Now guess who sits on the mother lode?
Now you can understand why the unbelievers are being culled by the Pure on Barf.
Grab some popcorn and beer the fun will start when there are no more kufirs and the "more pure" go after the "less pure"...
No problemo, Mani.
As long as you are not imposing your views on BRF, you are free to hold any opinion whatsoever regarding BRF - as are others to form their own views regarding the posters and quality of Mav's blog.
But from what I can gather, there are some out here who DO want to impose their views. In which case I am interested in understanding how they would define the 'extremism' that is causing them so much angst - so it can be applied in a fair and consistent fashion.
Ya see Mikey, "Phillip pretty much gets it right".
Now that right there ought to tell you that somebody is a few fries short of a Happy Meal.
So please, enjoy BARF as do I. And oh by the way, wasn't that Mooamar Qaddaffi a magnificent friend of India? I mean I wanna see some tears rollin' down. Har dee har har har.
>>>> As long as you are not imposing your views on BRF, you are free to hold any opinion whatsoever regarding BRF
Thank you Mikey, for granting me my freedom ...
is that an extremist prerogative? Any beheadings in the event of non-compliance?
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Prof, not to mention a post where one of the geniuses called for all BRF members who are precieved not to be in the Hindutva fold be declared "traitors."
Or another post where another poster worried that Sonia Gandhi might give a supari to LeT to kill Kejriwal.
And interestingly the moral compass did not even shudder once.
Indeed what constitutes "extremists" views?
Dear Ram,
Although I sense you have already reached a conclusion in your mind - I will try to entertain the possibility that your mind can still be changed.
>>mavaerick, the point remains. BRF does not want you anywmore so why r u fixating your life on that forum? go do something else.
If Ramana can spend his life on the forum and wear two hats as an admin on the India Forum and an on BR... why I can't show the simplest level of interest in the forum?
>>your moderate voice, extremist voice just sounds like hogwash. any forum is the people.
Every democracy I know has an extremists faction and a moderate faction. So the people are divided and I don't know what you want to say otherwise.
>> majority of ppl in india are worried about gross incompetebnce of UPA and its antics and will attack it online. u privileged NRIs are different.
Anti-incumbency isn't a very big part of the national security calculation. If people want to make political statements, then BR is not the place. It says so very clearly in the guidelines.
>>you are showing signs of fascism here, you want discussions to be one way, pick on people of another view call them extremist, support the state unthinkingly....all these show you to be a control freak. if you were on the forum youdneed moderation help to survive. clearly, you are no longer of the type BRF respects or even identifies itself as.
I disagree, people like me are there on the forum and the extremists are the ones that do not represent either India or the forum. They are a vocal minority who are allowed too much leeway by the Forum Admin.
I understand that this concord is a good trick to keep these extremists talking and it is the best way to keep an eye on things that may be boiling sub-surface however in the long run it will spoil the forum as a place for reasonable people to hang out.
You can have extremist views on BR but these people cannot gang up and push out moderates. That way madness lies.
>>so to expect the mods to make BRF Mav friendly and discuss the topics you like, is a bit too much
If it was something only I wanted, I would not bring the issue up at all.
I think it is something many more people want so I am saying it.
It will really help matters if Ramana goes back to being the admin correcting the people that use bad language instead of being the person that encourages them will notions of moral supremacy.
Dear Ram,
>> subramaniam swamy blew up the 2G scam despite death threats and all. to many everyday indians he is now a hero.
You could say Dr. Subramaniam Swamy is a "Hero"... but in the same sense that a constable in the Mumbai police addresses the fellow sitting on the gutter as a "Hero".
>> you INC NRIs may hate him, but he is an important man saying important things. not allmay be true, but many are leading to investigations which determine the truth.
Some of us know things about people in India that would make Dr. Swamy's ears curl. The only difference between us and Dr. Swamy is that we know that kind of information is not relevant.
If you want to listen to Dr. Swamy or build on his views of things and do "investigations", please go ahead.
All I point out is that BR is not the place to flaunt that "knowledge".
>> sorry maverick, you are coming as a cent per cent congress ka chamcha who wants the BRForum keys to be handed back to you after running out the other admins.
When I left the forum, I very clearly stated I would not return. I don't want to go back - I am just petitioning that a sense of balance be maintained on the forum.
>> First Shiv. Then ArunS. Now Ramana so entire old guard is out, you'll try to get back to brf. nice attempt but it wont happen. you have made your lust for power and political control freak desires too apparent.
I think you have a penchant for entertaining fantasy that I can't possibly match.
Dear Ram,
>> what difference.they went and created a site where ppl fromk BRF participate on the controversial topics and post on BRF as well. they dont spend time ranting on BRF.
That is called a separatist view point.
From my own experience as an admin, I recall that the people that formed India-Forum left in a great big huff but then kept trying to poach members from BRF.
>> In ur blog, you obsess unhealthily over BRF as it is your one possession that got away from you, and you want it back, somesomewhere and present admins are not doing the job you want them to do.
There are some hundred odd posts about on this blog, less than 3 are about the state of the forum.
I am an external observer that simply points out where the moderation is falling short.
My view matters only if the divisions exist inside the forum.
>> not much difference. at least the IG guys are happy in their own siter and dont spend trashtalking ppl who dont care about then? lurking BRF shows only one amber despararely putting ur blg everyplace. ppl were even then generally not bothered.
Again... from my own experience as an Admin - the India Forum people didn't need to trash talk BR on their forum - because they were too busy trashing BR - ON BR ITSELF.
>> grow up guys and stop your ego-battles abput the best mod and how unfair it was for you to leave, etc etc. its done. time for you toget lostand do something of ur life not sit and bitch and moan ion the internets
If my blog and views are as irrelevant as you say they are - then why do you keep wasting your life posting here?
Dear Pagan,
Actually, both Europe and the US have only made efficient cars in response to a sudden spike in gas prices. Given half a chance the auto companies in these places spew out "high performance" gas guzzlers.
I think for too long the mere notion of manhood has become aliased to the idea of speed and power.
I admit I may be wrong about F1, but I am not overjoyed that this is happening.
Perhaps you are correct to hope that it will not impact India's views on what automobiles should be like.
I am less certain.
Dear Mikey,
People that repeatedly make libelous statements on the forum, turn everything into a political INC-v/s-BJP fight and repeatedly flout forum guidelines fit the description of an extremist.
We can leave the discussion on the issue of who is an extremist open - but I would really like to see such people are given cause to reconsider their behaviour.
With regards the Maoist issue. I stand with Capt. Verma's assessment that this movement has the potential to severely damage the security of the nation.
A violent struggle of this kind in the centre of the country is frankly unacceptable.
To curtail the Maoist menace, we need to listen to the tribes that form the foot soldiers of the Maobadi movement and address their developmental needs.
I don't endorse committing a tribal genocide under the guise of security operations against the Maoists.
I feel the pain of the security forces, but I am extremely unhappy at the prospect of using coercion against a marginalised people that have very little means to protect their own human rights.
B. Raman's views in his piece "India under the carpet hits back" - profoundly shape my own thinking on this issue.
My views may be different from Somnath, but I feel he has as much of a right to his views as I do.
I do not think he has lost his moral compass or anything else.
There is a diversity of views here that must be recognised.
>>>
Bemused said...
Prof, not to mention a post where one of the geniuses called for all BRF members who are precieved not to be in the Hindutva fold be declared "traitors."
Or another post where another poster worried that Sonia Gandhi might give a supari to LeT to kill Kejriwal.
And interestingly the moral compass did not even shudder once.
Indeed what constitutes "extremists" views?
>>
Indeed!
And these events happen in barf as often as neutrino creation in a beta decay.
As to:
"And interestingly the moral compass did not even shudder once."
I think the moral compass in the above two cases did "shudder" more than once -
Once - when a chatterji commented on it on BRF.
Several times later when Banerjis (several banerjis!!) called the said chaterji all kind of names and warned him.
Go figure!
The sad part is that beheading for peace list has a name of a person who played a very critical role in getting an extremely difficult technology agreement worked out. This is technology agreement forms the cornerstone of the Herrowick fantasies about bigger and better booms.
This person is one of India's most effective instruments of foreign policy and now stands accused by the herrows of being an INC-ISI stooge by idiots who can't be bothered to read.
Mani_Tripathi said...
GinC ji,
excellent stuff ... had no clue where it was going until I reached the third couplet ... :)
For those who have trouble with kahri boli or hindi or urdu :
If one is interested, can use google to translate..
Here is the google translation : (I just made some minor corrections)
When the guard is formed eater,
(Rakshak/protector is a tyrant)
and field fence, eats (the farm)
In wild porn (uncivil language !)
All teachings are given.
Condemnation is for knowledgeable.
Worship is for fools.
Amber false, Rahul true,
Guruprbhu quiet, archan Barks.
^^^ Note that this is from (or inspired by) a poet who used to write about 100 years ago...
Mikey said...
Very enlightening, Mani !!
I am sure BRF misses your incisive and deeply logical definitions post your departure :)
But seriously...
>>>>
Seriously , many , do miss incisive and deeply logical posts by well informed professors and experts who take time to explain complex issues in terms which any sane person can understand.
Apart from some fools, most have respect for knowledge.
These deaf-n-dumb type fools, it seems, reached a critical mass due to disgraceful acts of brf-admins as Mav has pointed out in this blog.
Mani said:
Bemused,
Here is a dhagaa on def 'n' dumb ... it has not seen even one post in the 6 weeks since it was started:
http://tinyurl.com/3h2gl5v
those geniacs have their own version of moral compass, don't they?
>>>>
Prof Sahib,
Interesting, but I noticed that, in this case brf was ahead of deaf-n-dumb...
9/11 thread (to remember it) was, IIRC, defiled and actually closed by one of the admins.
Never mind that after US (and may be Canada), Indians were the largest group who died in that terrorist act and scums of 9/11 were the same as 26/11 scums....
While on the topic of definitions, I believe an "extremist" is fairly standard way of saying "far from center" ...
Now, I would love for Mikey or Ram to define for us what an "Indic" is ...
Mav, Mani
I recommend, if you have not watched it:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/wed-october-26-2011-lisa-randall
(It is a (total) 30 minute video, with a piece by asif (as if he may have read brf's CT theories and distrust of science)..etc.. I see lot of relevance with present brf admin mindset.
It is a funny piece but nicely done.
GinC,
Asif was good ... Lisa was ok ...
btw, Jon was right when he said "this sounds made up" ... Randall and Sundaram have proposed some way out crap ...
anyway, here is something equally shocking for you to watch:
http://tinyurl.com/3f3kul3
where was the moral compass brigade when such heretic activity was taking place? ... wimmens dancing ... tauba tauba!
^^^ make sure you listen to the woman talking starting at around 4:20 ... she sounds just like an Indian Muslim about how he is so grateful to India etc etc ...
the world is an effed up place ...
A great son of India and a researcher extraordinaire in America passes away ...
http://cnp.phys.vt.edu/cnp-bin/raju.pl
it seems just like yesterday when I stepped out with him for a ciggy ...
Did he post as Raju on BRF?
Mani said:
"Thank you Mikey, for granting me my freedom ...
is that an extremist prerogative? Any beheadings in the event of non-compliance?"
Mani, that is exactly why I was particular in asking for a definition of 'extremism'. You seem to have tagged me as an extremist for merely mentioning that you are free to hold your own opinion. And that is the edifice of logic on which this forum bases its argument on ??
Ralphy said...
Did he post as Raju on BRF?
>>>
No.
Mani wrote: 'While on the topic of definitions, I believe an "extremist" is fairly standard way of saying "far from center" ...'
I have seen folks using this argument and claiming they are the CENTER and everyone else with differing views is an 'extremist'. It might well be that posters on this blog suffer from the same syndrome.
From what I can make out this is a largely left-wing blog. Some would say extreme left-wing based on the views of some key posters regarding Maoism, 26/11 and other issues. Ergo...it is not in the CENTER and therefore extremist by your definition.
Mikey, why don't you do everyone a favour and let us know where you think BRF stands instead of tying yourself up in arguments?
Some examples of what many folks consider "extremists POV" have been posted on this "far left" blog you you say. Why not enlighten us on what your views are on those posts - none of them have been made up.
This labelling people extremist is a nice ploy ; always works in India akin to raising the fig of hindutva, communal forces or Amriki conpiracy etc etc.
Btw Maverick what do you have to say about likes of AlokN, Enqyoob, GJ man, ArunS and other frequent posters in BRF do they fall into the moderate or extremist category ? :)
Powerslave:
Yes, labeling people and dividing them in narrow category ought not to be job description of brf-admins.
All people, IMO do not fall neatly in moderate/extremist category so asking where certain people fall is kind of absurd.
My take would be:
Alok_N: Guy knew his Ghalib and Physics. Rumor is that he is some big-shot full professor in Physics.
Contributed lot of good technical knowledge.
N^3: Sharp wit. Some clowns (IDRF hateres) branded him hindutva-guy others hindutva-traitor. Knew his stuff about science. Rumor was that he was some big-shot full professor.
GJ - Don't know much..
Arun_S: Had a lot of following in BRF, who claimed he had lot of nuclear-gyan but it was apparent that his technical knowledge, at least in science was close to zero... Absurd calculations etc... but it did not prevent him from throwing gallis on real scientists...
This comment has been removed by the author.
This labelling people extremist is a nice ploy ; always works in India
Correct! But there are other even nicer ploys such as labeling people/posters as sell-out, desh-drohis, traitors, DIE and what not. All because they don't subscribe to your worldview.
Yes I can understand. It hurts when others play the same game.
But tell me what's the difference between, say, a "traitor" like MMS and an "extremist" who asks for beheading people who don't subscribe a particular political viewpoint?
You see Powerslave ji there are wheels within wheels. You need to think before posting. People in glass houses...
But tell me what's the difference between, say, a "traitor" like MMS and an "extremist" who asks for beheading people who don't subscribe a particular political viewpoint?
Just to expand on that bit in my post.
I meant what's the difference between the two in terms of the harm it does to Mother India?
Maverick wrote: "People that repeatedly make libelous statements on the forum, turn everything into a political INC-v/s-BJP fight and repeatedly flout forum guidelines fit the description of an extremist."
Hi Mav, Thanks for clarifying. My quick thoughts on each of the three categories you mention:
1. People who make libelous statements on the forum- I am glad you have used legal terminology that is rigorously defined. Based on Indian and international 'libel' norms - the case for any 'libel' based on whatever little I've seen on BRF seems highly suspect. The statements I see on BRF are in any case no different from the statements made every day in Indian media and politics or equivalent media /forums of any democracy such as in the US. Just as a matter of curiosity, do you consider the daily media / INC murder charges against Narendra Modi also as an example of 'libel'?
^^Continued from above....
2. Turn everything into an INC-BJP fight- I don't think posts that contain political views should necessarily be banned. If the political views are derived from some principles or reflect larger belief in left-wing / right-wing ideals they should not be problematic. But if the identification with a party trumps everything else, even larger principles- then it does become an issue.
3. Those who repeatedly flout forum guidelines- Agree with you here. The admin actions need to be consistent with guidelines. But the policing on BRF is based on members reporting posts they consider offensive. Also, in my limited period of interaction on BRF I've seen far more right wing folks posters being warned/ banned than left-winger posters.
Bemused boss I for one believe in free for all; I am no saint and not the one claiming moral high ground. So do away with the patronising tone.
It is the folks here who have been whining about use of derogatpry words galis and such stuff; talk is cheap in India likes of digvijay singhs , mulayams and many others get away with lot of nonsese in media so what is the big deal if someone calls em a mofo in public ? The politicos afterall don't desist from using such language in the assembly itself .
GinC's poem is a classic example of hypocrisy at display here he/she talks about 'galis' and then says 'Archan bhonke' . wah wah.
Ye chootiy@p@ nahin to aur kya hai ?
Bemused boss I for one believe in free for all; I am no saint and not the one claiming moral high ground. So do away with the patronising tone.
Good to know you believe in free for all Powerslave. I happen to believe in the same thing. Free speech and respect for other points of view is what differentiates us from the Pakis IMO. :)
However, if you didn't notice the discussion is not about what you or I believe in. The moral high ground was claimed by Ramana with his "moral compass" nonsense. Everything is a domino effect of that.
Don’t mix up issues here.
^^^^^
Just to add to the above. It would be interesting to know your take on the "moral compass" issue Powerslave.
Mikey,
I will reply to you provided you reply to me and define "Indic" ...
The line of argument you have taken is easy to counter but I would like to see you put something of your own out rather than tear into what others have posted ...
that makes you sound like a Barf Adminullah ... (maybe you are one?)
Anyway, what is "Indic"?
It's interesting that the three posters who have come forward to defend BRF in this debate, Ram, Mickey and Powerslave have approached it from the perspective of a Congress vs BJP or, to be politically more correct, UPA vs NDA.
[Meaning everyone posting here is a Sonia Gandhi camcha.]
They don't seem to get something very simple.
The issue is whether various diverse views of what constitutes the road forward for India - which is a sampling of what a diverse population of 1.2 billion people think - will be allowed to exist on BRF, subject to norms of decency and decorum.
It is not about one political grouping vs another grouping.
If you want to paint it thus, it would be interesting to know why you think a pro-BJP/Hindutva grouping in BRF is more Nationaist and desh-premi (even if they don't happen to hold Indian passports) than pro-Left/Congress sekular (using the favourite BRF spelling for the word)grouping?
Why is the later becoming an endangered species on BRF? Why does the "moral compass" only apply to them and not to the stromtroopers of "nationalist" cause?
Mav, Prof, GinC and others, you'll notice that this issue has been and will continue to be given a wide berth by Ram, Mickey and Powerslave and others who will come forward.
Inquiring minds would wonder why?
Bottomline: Prof, you'll never get a response for your "Indic" question. :)
Dear Powerslave,
I don't think AlokN, GJ qualify for the extremist label.
For most of the time I knew him as a fellow admin Arun S did not fit the extremist label.
Until he suddenly verbally attacked the DAE leadership, I had no idea he harboured such views.
I am not against extremists expressing themselves - I simply don't want the administration to stand idly by as they force moderates to leave the forum.
I think Ramana has erred gravely by handing moral supremacy to the extremists. Whatever he feels can be gained by courting the extremists, I feel is lost by effectively giving them the keys to the forum like that.
I wish he would correct the error.
Dear Mikey,
Full disclosure: I am not a lawyer, so my use of a legal sounding term does not imply full understanding of it.
>> "The statements I see on BRF are in any case no different from the statements made every day in Indian media and politics or equivalent media /forums of any democracy such as in the US."
I agree and speak about it in my blog post too - that is precisely the corrosive media culture I would prefer to see kept as far away from BR as possible.
>> " Just as a matter of curiosity, do you consider the daily media / INC murder charges against Narendra Modi also as an example of 'libel'?"
I am absolutely certain a lot of that is libel.
This kind of talk is profoundly political in nature and doesn't belong on BR.
That is why when leftist posters talked that way in the forum after the Godhra Ahmedabad rioting cycle, in my capacity as admin, I personally banned them.
I fail to see why the same standards cannot be applied to other political factions.
Right now it looks like the forum admin applies a different set of rules for left leaning posters and right wing people - the right wingers are given too much license.
Dear Mikey,
There are very few left leaning posters remaining on the forum. I had proposed that some of them be reinstated after the 2004 election, but my suggestion did not carry support in the Admin team. That may account for any statistical bias in your observations.
Unfortunately this increases the need for balancing the forum. There is already a numerical superiority of the right wing extremist fringe.
I don't see the point of having the forum turn into a far-right mutual admiration society.
There has to be some place in the world where a balanced and sane perspective on national affairs can exist.
>> GinC's poem is a classic example of hypocrisy at display here he/she talks about 'galis' and then says 'Archan bhonke' . wah wah. ..
>>
Archan bhonke is apt description for some one who calls himself as " 'khaki chaddidhar danda wielding pandu " and as a brf admin barks
"Getting on archanullah's nerves can lead to instant permanent houri-milaap" to make GuruPrabhu quiet.
I think the poet laureate got it right.
Powerslave - you ought to be ashamed of yourself for attacking the messenger.
I think on gauge of how bad things are is the extent of political sensitivity that is now attached to words like "nationalist" and "secular" on the forum.
I can understand it if the BJP wants to make nationalism - a part of its electoral strategic blend - but I don't see where this gives fringe groups the right to tell people if they are/not "nationalists".
Who are they to hand out labels like "traitor"/"sellout" etc...?
And who invited them to keep talking like that?
I can understand it if some people feel the need to keep looking at things from a religious perspective, but where does that give extremists the write to label people as "dhimmis"?
And why on earth should everyone doesn't take this nonsense seriously be penalised with labels "lost moral compass"?
When in broad daylight, these extremists - many of whom draw salaries from US based corporations and do not hold Indian citizenship - abuse elected officials and officers of the Govt. of India, heap scorn on India's diversity, endorse and promote the murder of unarmed Indian citizens, challenge the nuclear security of India, and labels random people as "traitors"/"sell outs"....
Can these labels not be applied with greater certainty to the people making them?
What is difference between these people and all those Canadian Sikh boys who speak highly of Khalistan?
How different is this from all those Indian Muslim men who chant praises of Jihad in
the lands of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries?
Pakistan fires stealthly nuclear capable cruise missile with terrain following capability
Yaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnn....
Maybe it can also pull some passenger cars and freight wagons with it.
Alternatively, if the Hatf VIIIIIIIIIIIIII - can fix those damn Pak Rail locomotives, it might actually be a major contribution to Pakistan's national security.
BTW - do I have to spell it out? without working locomotives, you can't mobilise or resupply troops?
In these war of worlds, all I can say is "maybe", since I am from this famed planet of grey from the Gandhi Nebula :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeKTtkH_8Tc
But Prof-saar, the word whose definition you are seeking can be reached by following rigorous experimentation (ie, saying it aloud a few times in the privacy of a bathtub). It means "retraction caused by chill". And I got visual confirmation (for the PYTs who stalk me, in my defense the water turned colder than usual)....
I strongly believe there is not enough dhaagas that looks into the serious art of chilling down and still feel adequate. Or so I feel.
GinC why should I be ashamed of calling a spade a spade ? You see it is you who have been ranting about how galis and foul language is used on the forum so I only pointed out the fact that in your ego trip you too lost your control, nothing more nothing less.
One cannot assume moral high ground and at the same time hit below the belt; you either step down from that pedestal and sort it out the old school way or desist from shoot and scoot.
Heric-ji,
LOL ... with your enlightened view, you have shown me THE WAY ...
... and, it is Vedic.
Maverick and what exactly is wrong with words like traitor, sellout and dhimmi ? If words like communal, secular , fascist and maut ka saudagar are used by politicians at the highest level then why aren't the former kosher ?
You are trying to distort the picture and exaggerating things by trying to draw analogy between the khalistanis and the forum .
Negi-ji,
Just for clarification, are you defending "moral compass" crap? If not, what exactly are you defending?
powerslave said...
GinC why should I be ashamed of calling a spade a spade ?
>>
Negiji - Not for "calling a spade a spade" but as I said before, for attacking the messenger for clearly pointing out (with exact quotes) that admins are using foul language.
You see, calling rough/foul language (clearly quoted) as barking is not ranting. Barking is a polite word (certainly in comparison to the colorful language which you used in one of your previous post).
For crying out loud, this was after GuruPrabhu (and a few others) made *many* informative posts while Sanku types were, YES, showing off their idiocy.
Archan/Rahul (as brf-admins) made ZERO contribution to nuke dhaga. *all* they did was abused their power using uncivil language.
I don't see you point doing = = or defending the indefensible.
Meanwhile I see JEM making a post, challenging one assertion by saying
"it is debatable"
I wonder if *anything* could be debated in barf in this environment.
Dear Powerslave,
>> Maverick and what exactly is wrong with words like traitor, sellout and dhimmi ? If words like communal, secular , fascist and maut ka saudagar are used by politicians at the highest level then why aren't the former kosher ?
How does the behaviour of politicians and their media managers apply to the forum folk?
Is Sanku or Philip actually Narendra Modi in disguise? or are they speaking on his behalf? Has Sri. Modi given them some power of attorney to go an insult the Prime Minister of India?
I really doubt that is the case.
BTW - even if Narendra Modi wanted to log in to BR and use it to heap insults on the people doesn't like - I don't see how that belongs on BR.
Yes there are corrosive aspects of the media culture in India. BR should be kept clean of that kind of rubbish.
>> You are trying to distort the picture and exaggerating things by trying to draw analogy between the khalistanis and the forum .
You are saying there is a difference between the extremists on the forum and the non-resident khalistanis.
Please prove it.
I don't see a difference between them.
"How does the behaviour of politicians and their media managers apply to the forum folk?"
Mav,
Let me try my hand at giving you an answer.
BRF is obviously a BJP Rakshak Forum now, not Bharat Rakshak Forum. The process of change started slowly after the BJP coalition was defeated in the election some years ago and MMS replaced ABV. The forum postership (the people who post messages) is mostly -- not all, of course, but mostly -- self-selected on this basis.
I remember very well the shock and horror at the election results; they had all convinced themselves, leading up to the election, that the BJP would win a majority and would no longer be hobbled by the constraints of coalition politics, and then the election results not only didn't produce what they wanted, it actually kicked the BJP out of office. They never accepted that election as legitimate, they have been bitching and moaning about "stolen elections" and electoral fraud (rigged voting machines) ever since.
So yes, when some journalist/ Congresswalla criticises the BJP, the brown shirt / saffron chaddi (BSSC) wallas take it personally, because they are (the way they see it) being personally attacked by people who have no moral or constitutional standing to open their mouths and say anything. And they just can't wait to return fire.
The BSSC crowd is just burning up with rage and hostility against *anyone* who disagrees with them, not just Congress wallas/ journalists. The hatred and rage built up to a crescendo during the debate about the IUCNA deal, and even people like B Raman noticed it. Had it been a town hall meeting instead of an internet forum, violence would have resulted for sure.
So yes, in answer to your question, I do think that BRF mostly sees itself as political bodyguard to people like Narendra Modi. Anything -- and I do mean *anything* -- said against MMS/Sonia et all is fair commentary (freedom of speech, don't you see) and *anything* said against RSS/Modi/BJP/VHP et all is treason/haraam.
And obviously the majority of posters and admins are fine with this. Dissenters have voted with their feet/keyboards and moved off the forum in the last few years. What remains is what you see.
FWIW I don't think it's reasonable or realistic for outsiders like us to try and change that; change has to come from within. If it doesn't, it won't. What we can do, if we want, is monitor/lurk on the threads that have useful content (there are a few of those IMO) and laugh at or ridicule the arseholes, as we would do to PakDef (and there are many PakDef-level posters and threads on BRF).
My two shekels worth.
Maverick I hope you realise that onus of substantiating the claim/charge is on the individual who first levels it, I for one cannot understand as to what is common between khalistanis and BRF members ? Btw what about ex-members ? LoL
Little pipsqueak suggestion onlee:
spin off the hot air thread off the BHARAT-RAKSHAK forum. Call it "Sanatana Dharmik Chintan Baitak" or "Jagathguru Sankucharya Dakshin California Mutt" or "Nine Point Eight Four Inches and Growing Club".....
The association of a totally politicized outlet like the Hot Air Forum with BR portal, the Defence dhaaga and the major efforts of people like SS, N3, Kgoan and of professionals in BR Monitor must IMHO be cut. One day the feces flinging monkeys WILL (IMHO) catch the wrong kind of attention and will the above said people want to be tagged along with those loose tongued dumpster fires. Hey, Fai and Radia took down a lot of people who were only peripherally associated with them.... like just called to say they have a cold, right? And what about something in "black and white" and archived on the web or in private hard disks?
Would it be very difficult for some organization with resources and links to actually check and establish link (if any) between the herrows and Friends of the BJP or something? And would they want such a visible place on the internet accusing their people of treason 24/7? It's very much within the realm of possiblity IMO. Is it difficult to charge the herrows with something solid? Hey,if they can nail Kiran Bedi with flight reimbursements and blunt Anna (at least a little) with 20 year old documents......
I mean, with all the verbosity and annotations and innuendo and the tenuous connections to El Nino and what not... at the core of things how different is the Gas Giant from good old Moo Moo? And I could name a number of see-near folks who have accused major political figures of high treason and advised subverting the constitution and the state on multiple occasions. Not wise leaving stuff like this around for internet savvy young voters/potential voters to stumble into.
So like Arun S left the forum taking off his articles, other people who don't agree with the cheap politics of the admins (AND the owners who apparently agree with them)..... make the disassociation COMPLETE. Like Mav and B Raman have done, identify the "strategic forum" for what it is in your blogs/twitter whatever. Maybe Seetal and Rakesh and co would pause and think and spin off the hot air forum.
Just my 2 anna.
Oops typo onlee:
spin off the hot air thread off the BHARAT-RAKSHAK forum.
to be read as
spin off the hot air forum off the BHARAT-RAKSHAK portal.
Mani_Tripathi said...
Negi-ji,
Just for clarification, are you defending "moral compass" crap? If not, what exactly are you defending?
Prof,
You’re not going to get a response from Negi ji. :)
You see, in normal circumstances Negi ji displays a very commendable attitude which could be summed up as something like this: “Aaja Maidan mei, dek lenga kitna daam hai…”
Negi ji believes he pulls no punches and gives no quarter nor expects any.
However, in this case he displays very commendable skills at downhill skiing by pretending, Ostrich-like, that nobody asked him anything. :)
Maybe Negi ji is worried that his moral compass would cease to point towards Ramana’s moral lodestone on BRF and that’s why he feels discretion is the better part of valor.
To be honest, there’s a much more charitable explanation for Negi ji’s reluctance to reply on this issue. How does one defend the indefensible?
However, if that’s the case why the obfuscation and constant running off at a tangent? Why all these Strawmen Negi ji when you know what the issue is all about?
I know there will be no reply, but one can always try…
PS: I asked similar questions to Ram and Mikey, I see they've stopped participating. Oh well Winter Olympics is coming and there's hope after all. Let the snows of the Himalayas burn with skiing tracks.
Ol' Frank Zappa would've approved ...
My forum posts are too tight
Shot off a stinker last night
A week went by
And now its July
I finally got one off
And the forum Admin cried
Your moral compass is fried
your moral compass, darling, puts a hurt on my brain
sung to the tune of "stink foot" :)
>>>> at the core of things how different is the Gas Giant from good old Moo Moo?
it takes 10 times longer to read the Gas Giant before you figure out that it is just some more Pu ...
>>>> Maybe Negi ji is worried that his moral compass would cease to point towards Ramana’s moral lodestone on BRF ...
I suspected as much ... most rack-a-shacks live in mortal fear of being banned ...
Maybe Barf needs a magnetic storm ...
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Bemused dude unlike you and some others here I do not conceal my online identity neither do I believe in politically correct commentary. I have been banned from BRF more than once and have been around both here and BRF for quite some time, so do away with patronizing BS.
I don't think that I am required to express my opinion on everything that gets posted on BRF. As I see things Ramana is a member first and then a moderator so like any other person why cannot he have an opinion on things ? I do not know about the moral compass episode my posts were very specific and directed to GinC and Maverick .
Professor T I shall let you pull my leg but gurudev 2nd innings to apne bhi kheli hai :P
Negi-ji,
You have no clue how many innings I have played (and continue to play ...)
The focus is on your lecturing on this blog ... your approach, just like Ram and Mikey before you, is on pointless picking on messengers ...
The problem is that you continue to defend a morally bankrupt regime that boasts a moral compass ...
sort of like Pakistan and its nuclear flash-point argument ...
How does the behaviour of politicians and their media managers apply to the forum folk?
Oh and why not ? Why should forum or anyone in India be held to higher standards than politicians ?
Tut tut Negi ji.
You don't know anything about the moral compass episode?
Ignorance is bliss I must say.
By the way do you know that there's a search function on BRF? Perhaps you could request your inquiring mind to...
I see you again avoid the "core issue" behind Mav's post. If you look at earlier posts on this blog, "moral compass" is central to everything.
But then what to do, I guess your moral compass points towards a different direction.
Professor T
I frankly do not understand this nonsense if there is an issue and a genuine concern for the way things have taken a turn then why not shoot an email to the individual concerned ? Finally if you have made up your mind about the fact that the individuals in question are morally corrupt then why this urge to post amongst them every now and then ?
Yes I pick on messengers I always have; but then as far as I can tell I never draw the first blood.
The moral lecture on language and galis was not started by me. Thanks to google cache it is there for everyone to verify.
Negi-ji,
>>> I frankly do not understand this nonsense
that is normal ... you would be really worried if you started understanding nonsense.
>>>> if there is an issue and a genuine concern for the way things have taken a turn then why not shoot an email to the individual concerned ?
LOL ... this is the lecturing part :)
why don't rack-a-shacks email Musharraf/Kiyani if they see an issue?
Why don't the geniacs shoot an email to MMS if they disagree?
>>> Finally if you have made up your mind about the fact that the individuals in question are morally corrupt then why this urge to post amongst them every now and then ?
Let us not discuss urges, shall we? Are you willing to submit to an examination of your urges? Have any sexual deviations, do you? How far do you want to pursue this pointless attack on messengers?
Suffering from Indic, are we?
Well professor T I thought you were serious about this issue; for don't you know Ramana personally ? Hence the point about writing an email.
Anyways in the end bhat goes my father's ?
what precisely is the difference between a personal email and a public blog as a means of communicating the information?
Maverick wrote: "I agree and speak about it in my blog post too - that is precisely the corrosive media culture I would prefer to see kept as far away from BR as possible. "
Mav, you agree that the statements on BRF are no different from those which are quite commonplace in Indian media and politics - but the crux of your argument seems to be that BRF should be kept secluded and coccooned & should not be reflective of the rest of Indian media and political talk.
This is where I would disagree with you. I don't know that such divorce from the reality of Indian politics is either possible or desirable.
A number of the key security issues facing India (including Maoism, J&K, dealing with Pakistan, terrorism amongst others ) just cannot be discussed without there being a reference to political stances of the parties on these issues. So discussion on politics is a natural outcome that cannot and should not be curtailed. As for the nature of these discussions - IF the major political parties were respectful of one another- you would find the same respect for politicians / parties / government reflected on BRF. But you know very well that is not the case, and the fact is BRF cannot remain divorced from the bitterness of Indian politics.
You identify the root of the problem wrongly. There is far too much divisiveness and vitriol in Indian politics today - which I personally find appalling. But instead of addressing this root you are seeking to attack the symptom - ie the reflection of the divisiveness of Indian politics on Indian media at large and BRF in particular.
Let me re post an earlier comment, because of context. IMO the poet laureate gets it right...
(Mani said}:
>>It takes only 3 - one IsharaMaster, one Nishanebaaz side-kick and one Sanku-ji.
This was predicted by Rastra-Kavi decades ago:
गुरु प्रभु सिक्षा दें उन्हें तो, लोग करते 'अर्चना'.
गेरो न संकू को हमारे, छेड़ना उसको मना.
विज्ञान तेरा, नाश हो, बम का फिज़ल तुमसे बना.
रे मूर्खते जीवित रहो, रक्षक तुम्हारे ' रामना. '
Guru prabhu = lord teacher
archana = pray/request/appeal
sanku = confused/chaotic
vigyan = science
murkhate = ignorance/stupidity ..
Rakshak = protector
Ramna = all mighty.
Just in case that, Negiji do not do do this poem = = gaali, here is my attempt to translate:
When teachers dispense knowledge..
Pepople appeal..
Don't disturb our confused ones..
Teasing them is prohibited..
Let Science be destroyed..
(Because it caused the bomb to fizzle)
Long live Ignorance and stupidity..
Ramna is your protector.
Dear ramana, it wasn't Henry Kissinger, but Herman Kahn who said that nuclear war could be fought in an escalatory manner. For all the nookular strategee farting that goes on on BRF, it is surprising that the one person who took a highly logical approach and analysed these issues with great clarity finds no mention on the forum.
And a hundred years of peace in Europe before World War I? The Franco-Prussian war slip your mind?
Mani_Tripathi said...
Ol' Frank Zappa would've approved ...
My forum posts are too tight
Shot off a stinker last night
A week went by
And now its July
I finally got one off
And the forum Admin cried
Your moral compass is fried
your moral compass, darling, puts a hurt on my brain
sung to the tune of "stink foot" :)
>>>
Wow! Adab arz.
Dear Powerslave,
I feel you have this backwards.
In my opinion, I can no longer see a difference between these people on the forum and all the other garden variety extremists I have run across in the context of the Khalistan struggle and assorted Jihads.
If the forum extremists are somehow different from the khalistan/jihad pasand nutters - kindly prove that to me.
I am open minded and if these people show some semblance of decency and reform their behaviour I will change my opinion.
Dear Powerslave,
>> Oh and why not ? Why should forum or anyone in India be held to higher standards than politicians ?
Politicians and their media managers deliberately say things to bait each other and get idiots worked up.
That is pretty much all they do - and the scoop-happy media jumps up and down every time around some one says something stupid.
It is the political equivalent of some bollywood actor/actress taking his/her shirt off in a public interview.
Its all scam - there is no information of value in that.
Are the people on the forum media managers for some politicians?
If they are - then the forum guidelines require that they be banned for their disruptive behaviour.
Please read Dilbert's reply to my question. That is the opinion that is gaining ground among all those people who don't want to see the forum turn into yet another politically saturated shithole.
Dear Mikey,
>> This is where I would disagree with you. I don't know that such divorce from the reality of Indian politics is either possible or desirable.
It is possible to do this.
All one has to do is keep the centrist outlook of the forum and defeat attempts to polarise the debate.
That all this "moral compass" stuff is leading up to - it is setting the ground for a polarisation of the debate environment of the forum.
>> A number of the key security issues facing India (including Maoism, J&K, dealing with Pakistan, terrorism amongst others ) just cannot be discussed without there being a reference to political stances of the parties on these issues.
A number of commentators have discussed these issues without any political references.
>> So discussion on politics is a natural outcome that cannot and should not be curtailed. As for the nature of these discussions - IF the major political parties were respectful of one another- you would find the same respect for politicians / parties / government reflected on BRF. But you know very well that is not the case, and the fact is BRF cannot remain divorced from the bitterness of Indian politics.
What the political parties have to do by way of electoral compulsions need not find a place on BR.
>> You identify the root of the problem wrongly. There is far too much divisiveness and vitriol in Indian politics today - which I personally find appalling. But instead of addressing this root you are seeking to attack the symptom - ie the reflection of the divisiveness of Indian politics on Indian media at large and BRF in particular.
I find nothing unique about the culture of Indian politics. Divisive and appalling is the norm. It has been this way for ever now - I don't think it will ever change.
It needs to stop on the forum.
If the extremists on the forum think of themselves as some sort of political vanguard, they should follow AnandK's suggestion and set up some equivalent of Politico.com or some other Hot Air Forum and go and gas off there.
Dear Dilbert,
Everything you have said seems rather depressingly accurate.
I labour in the hope that something can be done to stop this now.
Maverick wrote: "A number of commentators have discussed these issues without any political references."
Hmm, so all major problems of the country can be discussed without reference to the stances of the political parties, or issues of left vs right.
If I may ask - is that a standard you believe is applied even on your own blog by the regulars here? Do you believe this blog has a centrist approach? That divergent right-wing as well as left-wing views get equal space? That there are no 'extremist' views being spouted on your blog ? That there are no charges equivalent to 'treason' that have been levelled against the favorite political punching bag of this forum? Do you believe that this private forum should have outsiders like me determine which topics it should address and which topics it should not?
From what I can see, the answer to all of the questions above is a 'No'.
But then you seem to believe that BRF should be held to impossibly high standards that neither your blog nor any other forum / media outlet either within India or in the US have ever displayed.
I could have even struggled to understand such a mentality if BRF had some kind of official status that implied it should be held to different standards from your own blog. But is that the case?
Why the hypocritical attitude when your blog has displayed none of the attributes that you so passionately advocate?
Post-Parliament attack, India deployed N-missiles on border: Rice
Interesting extract from Condi's new book.
"In fact, Rice writes that CIA was speaking the language of Pakistan, which wanted the entire world to believe, in particular the US, that India was ready to attack them."
It is not surprising that the CIA would do this, in fact the CIA and the US State Dept jointly constitute the "Pakistan interests section" of the US Govt.
What is Mikey going on and on about?
As far as I can see, there are no political posts here - right, left, center or topologically inverted ...
If I had to define the politics here, it would be some sort of jungle juice cocktail ...
My own view is simply that I see ZERO difference between UPA and NDA unless one wastes time analyzing the degrees of idiocy spouted by both ...
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I am now inclined to believe that Mikey is an adminullah ... the trait of obfuscating when clarity is pounding one on the nose is a special feature of that species ...
come on Mikey, be a sport, take Negi-ji's advice and let us know your Barf handle ...
Well Maverick I have always maintained that BRF is just like any other public place or a nukkad . Problem starts when you start expecting great things from such a place. Obviously for someone who only keeps to GD and MIL fora and hardly posts anything of significance my view of the forum in general might not resonate with your's.
Anyways lets take up your idea about restoring balance ; to be frank how different is this from the usual slogan about restoring equality in society i.e.'socialism' ? I mean how are you gonna achieve it ? As per you Philip and Sanku's views are extreme but if you noticed they have been banned in the past so are you trying to imply that their IPs be banned ? Again will that solve the problem ? What stops them from spawning new accounts via a different ip ? As for the problem of moderates being chased away will there is no such thing as chasing away someone on an internet forum ; people stick around if there is a topic/issue which evokes interest, it's not like these moderates have been put on some kind of a permanent ban.
I mean you have been a moderator in the past , how will you control the polarity of the forum ? Finally how does one quantify as to what is kosher and what is not , each individual has his/her own tolerance level for BS.
We all have our share of baggage and bias; else how do you explain your ploy of spawning this new entity 'media managers' and shift all the blame on them as if they spawned in midst of this tamasha from nowhere; as far as I can tell they are a subset of a larger set i.e. politicians.
Chip on shoulder is what makes one take a tilt at windmills; else how do explain MMS's apology to the world after godhara while he continues to discharge his duties for a party whose role in 84 riots is an open secret, contests election from some nook and corner of Assam and calls the opposition communal. Such chutzpah I say.
Hence I do not feel a bit when someone calls these jokers names; hell in the heat of moment even I might pitch in with a nice epithet or two.
take the nuke dhagaa for example ... adminullahs (except, Gerard) did not put any check on all sorts of nonsense being posted in an orgy of hysteria ...
now, that the public is indulging in the same chorus, the geniacs are blaming it on the church ...
Wah!
Mikey,
You didn't answer my question so I will ask it in a tangential fashion:
Is "Mikey" an Indic handle?
Mani wrote: "I am now inclined to believe that Mikey is an adminullah"
Mani, I am no BRF Adminullah ! Just an occasional poster in recent times who happens to be interested in issues of freedom of speech.
And 'Mikey' is meant to be 'Mike + ey'. It has no 'Indic' connotation whatsoever.
This is contradictory:
>>>>>> And 'Mikey' is meant to be 'Mike + ey'. It has no 'Indic' connotation whatsoever.
How can you be so sure if you don't know the definition of "Indic"?
>>> interested in issues of freedom of speech.
You will not find that on Barf ... As long as Bannerjees lead the Chatterjees with a moral bar magnet ...
Freedom of speech
This is a very commendable concept Mikey. But then the question arises, do you think this freedom is allowed, within forum decorum and guidelines, by BRF Admins like Ramana?
This question arises because in a free speech environment things like "moral compass" have no place. Wouldn't you agree with that?
Also if you read Mav's original post and subsequent ones by others here, the lament is the perceived lack of freedom of speech on BRF.
So the best way you can convince folks is to prove with examples that free speech and diverse opinions are allowed to flourish on BRF. Can you do that?
If you can't prove free speech is found and encouraged on BRF you are just spouting hot air just like some "right-wing" liberals who post on BRF.
Mani wrote: 'How can you be so sure if you don't know the definition of "Indic"?'
Mani, I seriously have no idea how others define it. In my mind, all it is is marketing terminology that does NEED to be utilized at some point to associate some set of values with India to enhance her 'soft power', given that India will play a much larger role in the world over the next 50 years and beyond.
Mani wrote: "My own view is simply that I see ZERO difference between UPA and NDA unless one wastes time analyzing the degrees of idiocy spouted by both ..."
Ok, will take that statement at face value. I will just suppose that your repeated usage of phrases such as 'saffron chaddiwalas', 'knicker walas' has been balanced out elsewhere by anti-Congress epithets !
Here's what I wrote in an earlier post:"Hmm, so all major problems of the country can be discussed without reference to the stances of the political parties, or issues of left vs right.
If I may ask - is that a standard you believe is applied even on your own blog by the regulars here? Do you believe this blog has a centrist approach? That divergent right-wing as well as left-wing views get equal space? That there are no 'extremist' views being spouted on your blog ? That there are no charges equivalent to 'treason' that have been levelled against the favorite political punching bag of this forum?"
Just so there are no accusations of obfuscation, detailing out examples I had in mind for each of the above-
1. is that a standard you believe is applied even on your own blog by the regulars here?: No, there are enough examples of politically oriented posts on this blog that specifically discuss parties. There are also a whole bunch of posts that discuss issues with reference to 'right-wing' vs 'left wing' positions. Whether in the US or India, the question of which parties are meant by these terms is pretty obvious.
2. Do you believe this blog has a centrist approach? No, it is largely a left-wing blog. The views of Maverick, Anand and others are very much in synch with the views of the left.
3. That divergent right-wing as well as left-wing views get equal space? Answer to this is obvious. There is hardly anything approaching equal representation for right and left wing views here.
4. That there are no 'extremist' views being spouted on your blog ?
Using Maverick's own definition of extremism - his views on 26/11 and Anand K's CTs would be classified as 'libelous' and hence 'extremist'.
5. That there are no charges equivalent to 'treason' that have been levelled against the favorite political punching bag of this forum?
Accusing a party of being a party to terrorism and carnage of the type of 26 /11 and other incidents is, by definition, equivalent to accusing it of 'treason'. Why get upset when MMS is terms a 'traitor' when folks here are implying the same as regards the BJP?
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>>>>> I will just suppose that your repeated usage of phrases such as 'saffron chaddiwalas', 'knicker walas' has been balanced out elsewhere by anti-Congress epithets !
There is no Isharamaster to protect you here ... so try to speak the truth ...
repeated implies more than 2-3 ... have you counted?
I can't be bothered to recall when or where I may or may not have used such phrases and in what context ... but you seem to be the scorekeeper ...
so, please tell me how many times is "repeated" in your analysis?
Also, which other phrases have I used more than once?
Do you know for a fact which phrase YOU have used more than once in the last few years?
Are you going to resort to garbage arguments now?
>>>> In my mind, all it is is marketing terminology that does NEED to be utilized at some point to associate some set of values with India to enhance her 'soft power', given that India will play a much larger role in the world over the next 50 years and beyond.
You seriously have no clue ... marketing terminology indeed :)
no worries ... I thought you were an adminullah ... this proves that you are not.
Mikey,
Learn to argue without made up data ... pick up examples and illustrate, rather than simply proclaim certainty.
It is getting boring to read your accusations ...
Also, learn to reason, Mikey ...
If I comment on a blue shirt's bad behavior, it does not mean I am commenting on everyone who wears blue ...
It also does not make me pro-red ...
sort of basic stuff.
Hi
I had posted a comment that seem to have gotten deleted. Not sure if it was webmaster action, so would post the gist again.
I think too much importance is being given to one blog, BRF. It used to be a good place to swap ideas, but it's clearly degenerated. My take on that is a lack of enough "expertise quotient" among admins there. Especially true for technical subjects like nuke policy and economy among others. Add to it the proliferation of posters with shallow reading and deep blogging interest, and results are maybe not unexpected.
But in any case, for people looking for a different perspective, incluodmg the likes of me (who has lost his moral compass!), there are tons of other places. Including this blog.
I wouldnt therefore lose a lot of sleep over BRF. JMT of course.
Hi Somnath,
Can you suggest some good forum/blogs?
Bashing Barf can be a sport like bashing Pakistan is a sport on Barf ... we do need a Benis like lampoon dhagaa focused on Barf.
Bemused wrote: "This question arises because in a free speech environment things like 'moral compass' have no place. Wouldn't you agree with that?"
Bemused, that's a fair question. I hold no brief for the admins but here's how I see it:
From whatever I know of the issue, it seems to me the 'moral compass' comment of Ramana was made wearing his hat as a poster and not as an admin. If he had intended to use his hat as an Admin, he would have used the tools provided to admins: ie a warning or ban. My understanding was no warning or ban was actually issued.
If indeed Somnath or Amit had thicker skins they could have ignored Ramana's comments and continued, but for whatever reason they did not choose to do so.
Now, the separate question is does the forum have equal representation of left-wing and right-wing views - and is the environment on the forum more favorably disposed to one or the other? The answer to these is certainly that both do not have equal representation, and left-wing posters generally do need to have thicker skins in order to survive their low numbers.
continued below...
continued from above...
So, if you take as an axiom that freedom of speech necessarily implies left-wing and right wing representations need to be equal - then what follows is that freedom of speech is not encouraged on BRF.
But, I would strongly question taking the above as an axiom. The issue is that the vast majority of those who are internet savvy in India ARE socially right-wing oriented (though most of this percentage is not extreme). You can see this on any internet based media outlet / forum - not just on BRF. So one cannot artificially dictate equal representation.
If you notice the situation in the US, there are multiple military fora as well as political fora. Each one of them naturally over a period of time tends to acquire either a right-wing or left-wing flavor. So, the answer to your issue is that THERE should always be appropriate choice presented to the consumer. If BRF has through natural osmosis acquired more of a right-wing flavor - and since it is not an official forum but is a private forum - the ONLY liberal and democratic means for those who disagree with BRF views is to start their own left-wing forum.
The instinct of trying to impose your views and take control of a private forum is typical of the 'command and control' fascist tendencies of the extreme left wing. That is what concerns me most about this fixation that this blog has developed relating to BRF.
Mikey,
you are flawed in dividing people into two simple camps of left and right wing. As long as you keep building a house of cards based on this, you will not comprehend the issues at play here.
Hi Mani
Try Takshashila - it's a good effort. I think Mav's blog is pretty decent too!
Mikey, are you the "Arjun" of BRF? I agree on your point on not worrying too much about a pvt blog. Though the world isn't cut up so nicely in left wing, right wing terms
Sommath wrote: "Mikey, are you the 'Arjun' of BRF? I agree on your point on not worrying too much about a pvt blog."
Hi Somnath- Yes, the same. Hope all is well !
I am all for multiple choices. Put up a BRF alternative that is left-wing. Or if Mav and others can really create a somewhat higher-brow version of BRF that is centrist, that would also be a good proof of concept for skeptics like me.
Oy Vey! I am left wing?
Chora veena mannil ninnuyarnnu vanna poomaram
chethanayil nooru nooru pookkalaai polikkave
nokkuvin sakhaakkale nammal vanna veedhiyil
aayirangal chora kondezhuthi vaccha vaakkukal:
Lal Salaam. Lal Salaam.
Anand K,
I remember Left Wingers from the 70s ... were up all night defacing walls with their crap ... and then they came home to drink angrezi and smoke 555 ciggies ...
too tiring and tiresome work ... :)
The answer to these is certainly that both do not have equal representation, and left-wing posters generally do need to have thicker skins in order to survive their low numbers.
Mikey/Arjun,
This a good start it shows that you are actually thinking about the issue. Now tell me why is it that left-wing posters need to have thicker skins in order to survive on BRF? Is it because the right-wing types are more vile and indulge in gali or is it because the Admins do not extend the kind of support and protection that is required to the left-wing posters?
If it's the former then Mav's extremist terminology has merit. If it's the later then that implies Admin bias which itself opes up a new can of worms. So I suggest you think it through and decide what you're stand is before typing.
And the most important point. It seems that to you anyone who is not demonstrably right-wing has to be left-wing? Why is this so? Don't you understand that there are plenty of people who are not ideology centric but approach everything on issue basis? Centrists if you will.
But then considering the fact that you describe yourself - in your Arjun avatar - as a "Rightwing" Liberal you wouldn't understand. A liberal by very definition is neither right or left winged but then that's something you wouldn't understand.
Regarding Ramana's "moral compass" comment, you are mixing up the facts very cleverly. I suggest you go and have a re-look at the relevant thread. You'll find that two or three posts below the moral compass comment Ramana told a poster than Admins know when they have to take a stand. Now which Admin was he talking about.
When told specifically to go by a senior Admin like Ramana you'd expect Somnath and Amit to hang around to "explain their position", maybe even ask for forgiveness perhaps?
Give me and others here a break boss.
A piece of friendly advice, when posting outside the confines of Right wing BRF get your fact right before righting anything. Otherwise you'll be found out very fast.
About that "natural osmosis in the phorum" which made it oh so shining bright saffron... can't be further from the truth. Were you around in Aug 2007-Jun 2008 period? Specifically, were you a part of that email list where many contributors here and other BRFites were members of?
I remember a number of predictions on the forum losing it's objectivity and aggressive path some are taking to turn it into a party mouthpiece. From that group LDev, S Valkan, N3, Sunil S, Laks, Manne, George(?), Kaushik K, myself and maybe a cpl of others don't post anymore (or post VERY rarely). And it was not natural osmosis..... it was selective admin-dand on the "moral-compass" lines, protecting the foul mouthed n00bs and avatar 2.0s who continued with ad-hominem attacks and raised the noise ratio to disruptive levels and some helpful sniping. The message is made very clear without any ban - "You do not confirm to the hive-mind. Begone DIE Mainovadi Commie P-Sec scum!". You are left with two choices: challenge the bannerjee and fulfill his clear wish to ban you or just leave with grace (not H&D).
PS: One or two from the list above might have left for different reasons...... BTW, there are other unnamed members who pretty much stay away from politicized discussions and prefer Nukkad or BENIS.
Pah. Why bring all this up? Anyway, I stand by my original "CT".
If such blatant politicization is continuing in the forum, it is because the owners and admins *want* it to be so. And I believe sooner than later the forum will attract the wrong kind of attention if things continue this way. And I also request that the party mouthpiece forum be taken off the BHARAT-RAKSHAK portal. Pleej.
Oh.... one more thing. Remember why Rahnuma-O-Rabrein (the predecessor of BENIS, to the Johnny-Come-Latelys) was formed? It was intended to be a satire on the magical land of Pakistan. IMO now it's more a chance to denigrate Islam and Muslims.
I mean, sometimes lines are crossed, mere biraders. Making fun of Mullah Sandwich and Rakkitmards is okay but "HoKo", "Moe
, "Pedo-bear", "Ya Arrah" ain't funny.
I remember a member commenting that a Muslim friend he recommended BR to put the forum in his sh1t-list because of the sly Anti-Islamic "thrust" of the BENIS forum.
Anand wrote: "Were you around in Aug 2007-Jun 2008 period? Specifically, were you a part of that email list where many contributors here and other BRFites were members of? "
Anand, I was not. Was a lurker in that time period and joined up only in late '08.
Looks like it was some kind of defining cleavage for the forum. But not having been in the thick of things it would be difficult for me to form any view on what really occurred. For example, did the cleavage occur due to discomfort with political discussions and politically incorrect statements in general, or was it to do with partisanship in a certain direction?
I myself would have been strongly in favor of not having any restrictions on political discussions or even on politically incorrect statements - as long as the poster is able to back up with logic / data as required. On the other hand, blatant partisanship trumping over principles is to be discouraged - though this can be hard to define or prove.
On your other point and those of Bemused, will reply in due course.
Defining cleavage?
In Ramana's (IIRC) analogy, the Nuke Deal was the "mausala grass with which our clansmen beat each other to death". But methinks it began in the "Analysis of 2004 election results" thread, as others here have pointed out. I myself left in Nov 2007 after a couple of incidents in one of the earlier avatars of the "Non Western Worldview" dhaaga.
Political beliefs and "The Double Super Secret Great(er) Game Nobody Else Knows About" came to rule everything... you had something like Doc's "Oil Drop" which forced everything else out of the forum. And the faithfool are happy and comfy within the droplet.
BTW, Kaushal.... you reading all this, man? :)
Dear Mikey,
I do not believe this blog or even others like it - for example - Dhruva and Nitin's setup in Washington DC or the IDSA websites can come anywhere close to BR in terms of the sheer volume of information that is processed.
That is why I feel the BR forum is unique and it must be held to high standards.
All I ask is that a sense of discipline be restored - specifically that Ramana please do something to contain the extremists as opposed to encouraging them with notions of moral superiority.
I think there is a way to discuss issues of national importance without getting into the seamier side of politics.
Politicians have their compulsions, and the forum need not be sucked into that.
>>>> Pah. Why bring all this up?
yeah, for a while there I thought the Mikey fella knew the history ... it is pointless to educate this Arjun chap on "who was sita?"
Mikey,
I am still waiting.
>>>>> as long as the poster is able to back up with logic / data as required.
your "data": My *repeated* use of certain phrases (unsubstantiated).
your "logic": Hence, I am a right-winger (unproven).
This sort of stuff is abundant on Barf ... why worry, bask in the glory of data/logic.
I will point you towards Chaanakya ... an unparalleled practitioner of this art form.
Dear Powerslave,
All I am asking is that the forum admin, do something to keep the lunatics from getting the key to the asylum.
Philip was an admin when I joined the team. At the time his views were quite balanced, and he didn't take a trip to the wild side until after Sept 2001, when it became clear that Christina Rocca was spearheading a rapprochement between the LTTE and the US and that LTTE would be given an overground political status in exchange for supplying the US with actionable intelligence in its war on terror. Like many others in India, Philip could not stand the LTTE. He strongly believed that Pirphakaran was genocidal psychopath and no good would come from making deals with him. To be very clear - I shared his dim view of things and I did not have a great deal of confidence in Christina Rocca's abilities to manage this complex a situation. In conversations with friends we all felt we were looking at another Romesh Bhandari type person and we were worried things would spiral out of hand. But we all knew there was little choice in the matter once the Americans had indicated their position in this insane card game.
When Philip could not understand why the GoI was supportive of this, I feel he spoke too plainly and that ultimately caused him to renounce his admin privileges and carry on his cause as a regular forumite.
I am grateful to Philip for what he did, because his action set the tone for what course a forum admin should take if something does not sit well with the conscience.
I would compare his leaving the forum admin team with the manner in which Sri Brajesh Mishra left the MEA after Mme. Gandhi refused to condemn the soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
Sanku joined the forum after I left. I cannot speak for what drives his posting habits.
Discouraging people from flying off the handle like this will benefit the forum.
The forum is *NOT* "Indian society" - it is NOT representative of anything in India. It is a private space where something different can be attempted. So there is no "socialism" at work here.
The politicians have their thing and the forum is not a place for their touts to come and harass ordinary folk.
Mani- I had tried to post this message twice below and I faced the same issue that Somnath mentioned...it initially shows up as posted but subsequently disappears from the post list. Trying this again:
----------------------------------
Mani, the terms 'saffron chaddiwala' and 'knickerwala' are typically favorite put-downs used by the INC-folks against the right wing. Hence my inference..If I am wrong about your partisanship, I certainly exgtend my apologies. In any case, as I have identified in a previous post - the explicitly left-wing posts here largely originate from certain other posters who I have named.
Dear Mikey,
The political orientation of this blog is centrist - it is defined largely by my posts which speak without political flavours.
The comments by all segments of the political spectrum are welcome here.
Barring one person who insisted on killing people in R&AW headquarters, I have not deleted anyone's posts. Usually there are a number of spam posts that ask you to visit porn sites which I delete but these are robots posting not human beings.
When the BJP was in power, I was supportive of Team ABV.
When the INC took power, I became supportive of Team MMS.
I am at odds today with people who profess to be right wing Indian nationalists but I am not left wing.
I think the left is making very cogent arguments based on solid economic principles about the way the economy is developing and the BJP people are not coming up with effective counter arguments.
I am a realist - that is all.
Any coherence between my views and those of any political party is an accident or coincidence.
I do not have a political affiliation.
In the words of Sir. Humphrey Appleby,
"Mr. Minister, my government is always in power... Mr. Minister, I am always on your side.."
I am 399% sure that "Saty" was Sanku's handle before Doc banned him a second time. I am sure many believe that *even more* obnoxious critter.
BTW, did I get the name "Rahnuma O Rabrein" right? Heh heh.... I just found that I haven't archived those threads. Some of the posts were hilarious.... the one about "Pakistan Institute of Alternate Realities" and well... Rye's heavily admin-edited "Bakrasavanti" series.
Dear Somnath,
I am quite disturbed by this "Moral Compass" stuff. I don't want to see it spiral into more of the shoe-dropping nonsense.
I am acting pre-emptively to stem that possibility.
You are quite forgiving, but I don't like the way you were treated on the forum and I an truly sorry that this happened.
>>>> Mani, the terms 'saffron chaddiwala' and 'knickerwala' are typically favorite put-downs used by the INC-folks against the right wing. Hence my inference..If I am wrong about your partisanship, I certainly exgtend my apologies.
Mikey,
I know the phrases, so spare me this nonsense apology ...
You stated that I use the phrases REPEATEDLY ...
On Barf, that may qualify as "data" ...
but here, you need to substantiate such claims ...
else, if you have to apologize, apologize for lying.
>>>> "Rahnuma O Rabrein"
Rahnuma O Rahbaar
>>>>> the terms 'saffron chaddiwala' and 'knickerwala'
there was one adminullah who described himself in those terms ... so referring to him as such does not count ...
also, I associate those terms with Hindutva nonsense rather than BJP ...
Mikey, Maverick has no need to prove anything. He rarely deletes anyone's post and and as far as I can tell, pretty much runs a "centrist" point of Indian view. He evidently believes that the Indian government should be given a certain amount of respect unless somethng has gone horribly wrong from a centrist view point.
Let's face it, most of the posters on this board are pro nuclear power but you won't see them call a group of concerned Indian peasants protesting the appropriation of their land and the use thereof, a bunch of "quislings". Nor will their religion be called into question by accusing of being led by the Pope. You won't see them suggesting the creation of a "beheading list". Nor will you see them cry over the demise of blood thirsty dictators.
Of course I abhor their sometimes anti-American stance but that is my particular problem. ;-)
But overall, I would say that trying to point out failures on this board while defending BARF is like committing murder and then telling the accuser "well, you're not perfect either". Just my thoughts.
Mani said :
>>>>> the terms 'saffron chaddiwala' and 'knickerwala'
there was one adminullah who described himself in those terms ... so referring to him as such does not count ...
also, I associate those terms with Hindutva nonsense rather than BJP
>>>
" 'khaki chaddidhar danda wielding pandu ' was used by Archan.. His *ONLY* contribution with regard to GP's posts in nuke dhaga..
Ramana clarified later that the reference was to "a street cop" (and not to what others were taking...
(Ramana's *ONLY* contribution to nuke dhaga was protecting eh-n-dee of Sanku types and let the lynch mob drive away *all* scientists from the dhaga..
(All archived in Mav's blog)
They deserve all the ridicule.
When admin(s) like Rahul, Archan, Ramana use their gutter mouth.. and NOT a single admin objects barf gets well deserved = = to deaf-n-dumb.
Noticed that *not* a single brf admin commented (yet) on this blog.
All I see are people like Mikey, Ram using torn shirt/open fly type arguments, using straw-men, shooting the messengers. increasing NtoS ratio .ityadi..
Some (brf-admins) have proved themselves to be bullies, others are proving themselves to be cowards.
I have a challenge for those admins who have remained quiet till now .. read the following from the poet laureate..(Krishna's advice to Arjun at the battlefield)
अधिकार खो कर बैठ रहना,
यह महा दुष्कर्म है
न्यायार्थ अपने बंधु को भी,
दंड देना धर्म है.
(Remaining quiet, and not exercising your rights .. is greatest sin.
Taking disciplinary action against
even your own brothers, if need be,
Is dharma)
There you have it!
अधिकार खो कर बैठ रहना,
यह महा दुष्कर्म है
न्यायार्थ अपने बंधु को भी,
दंड देना धर्म है.
----
That, IMO, is Indic :)
>>>But overall, I would say that trying to point out failures on this board while defending BARF is like committing murder and then telling the accuser "well, you're not perfect either". Just my thoughts.
>>>>
Well said. Perhaps the powers to be in BRF may like to pay attention.
Hi Maverick
In terms of potential as a forum for credible discussions, I think the Takshahsila setup has promise. not least because someone is working full time on the concept.
Between India Forum, BRF and the various blogs hosted by journos ( Ajai Shukla et al) - they can at best be info databases. To expect a better quality of analysis is perhaps asking for too much.
That is the job of the likes of IDSA, ORF etc. Takshashila is trying in the online network arena.
By definition, credible analysis needs to have a degree of peer reviews. In blogs like BRF, peer review is almost a four letter word:)
It would be useful to see if a few people can set up a peer reviewed journal online, or at least a database of peer reviewed articles. That would be a good start maybe.
This comment has been removed by the author.
>>>That, IMO, is Indic :) ...
Prof T and others...
Google is amazing.. I cut and pasted my
quotes ("अधिकार खो कर बैठ रहना..") in google search engine and the top result is:
http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/8747527.cms
This also quotes my couplet ... but has very relevant commentary.. BRF stake-holders ought to pay attention.
(The above page is in Hindi, but google, if need be, can translate it to English... certainly worth reading for brf-admins.)
This comment has been removed by the author.
^^^ The link was truncated ..
http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/
articleshow/8747527.cms
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mikey,
Data analysis is a tough business ... no hit and run posts ... when you make an accusation, better have the data to back it up ...
>>>>> you've used the term 4 times in just the last 3 blog articles by Mav.
Let's see what these 4 references are ... your original claim was that I utilize these phrases to refer to the BJP ... can you show that?
As I said, if they are in reference to that foul-mouthed adminullah, I was simply employing his own self-characterization ...
so, yes, don't back off yet ... keep at it ... how many of these references were to the BJP?
Better prove yourself if you don't want to be proven a liar :)
Mikey,
>>>>> though I have no intention of continuing any further discussion on this particular count.
You can make it easy on yourself and everyone else if you typed two words instead of long posts ... thusly:
Downhill Skiing
Life without Isharamaster on your back can be tough.
Mani wrote: "Let's see what these 4 references are ... your original claim was that I utilize these phrases to refer to the BJP ... can you show that?"
And where did I make the claim that these referred to the BJP? Can you show me that please?
Mikey,
A reminder ... you spouted this:
>>>>>> I will just suppose that your repeated usage of phrases such as 'saffron chaddiwalas', 'knicker walas' has been balanced out elsewhere by anti-Congress epithets !
The accusation implies that the equal-equal is between BJP and Congress, right?
Had it been identified as a usage against Barf adminullah, the text would have read thusly:
"I will just suppose that your repeated usage of phrases such as 'saffron chaddiwalas', 'knicker walas' has been balanced out elsewhere by anti-Def'n'Dumb epithets !
Please note the correct moral equivalence ... there is a south pole for every north pole in a moral compass ... :)
^^^^ if the logic above is not apparent to Mikey, I am led to believe that the following lemma has been formulated on Barf:
Everytime one bashes an admin on Barf, one has to bash MMS to provide stable equilibrium in the magneto-sphere of morality"
I am capable of learning, Mikey ... just keep teaching me the emanations of Barf morality ...
A_Gupta's compass is jammed ... next one to be Wahji-bull-cattle on Barf ... LOL.
Maverick wrote: "The political orientation of this blog is centrist - it is defined largely by my posts which speak without political flavours."
With respect Mav, I find this a somewhat difficult statement to digest.
- You get into convulsions when MMS, the Gandhi family are disparaged, & you've expressed outrage over this at various times in your articles
- You believe the Sangh Parivar could have had a role in 26/11, the biggest act of treason against this country if ever proven !! Only extreme kooks in the country subscribe to a theory of this sort.
- You have been viscerally against the entire anti-corruption movement whether of Anna, Ramdev or SSS.
- You were aghast at the guy at IIT who refused to accept his degree from the PM, and wanted that he be penalized !!
- You have explicitly stated that the right-wing consistently sounds like a bunch of lunatics while the left-wing is consistently reasonable.
- You don't think the dyanstic politics of the Nehru family where the 5th scion of one single family tries to gain more control of the nation, is that big of a deal.
- You've expressed scorn for the actions of Subramaniam Swamy
- You are obviously for the Aman ki Asha sentiments wrt Pakistan.
You are telling me that inspite of all of these indicators, you are neither left-wing nor pro-INC but are actually a centrist?
Btw, your position on 26/11 as well as that of Anand K - fits your own definition of extremism, where you mention libelous statements as being a form of extremism.
Accusing the BJP of having a hand in 26/11 as you have implied and Anand has suggested in a CT of his - directly amounts to accusing the BJP of treason on India. And you get worked up when MMS is accused of the same charge !
^^^^ ok, I see Bob, Weave and Duck being employed by Arjun-ji ...
Am I to take that you have conceded defeat and are ready to modify your apology to me?
Why else would you stop the thread with me and now start attacking Mav with statements like "YOU BELIEVE blah blah ..." ...
get a sense of reality, young man ...
Folks,
I am not familiar with the handle "Arjun" on Barf ... can't recall any posts of his ... so, is he a remote controlled drone?
Is he posting spoon-fed crap? I can't imagine that his own views have any traction on Barf.
Arjun-ji, I am asking obvious questions ... no accusations ...
Mani- I am done on my discussion with you. I have no wish to be sidetracked into a petty discussion that has no bearing on the larger point.
Mav, the point I was raising with my previous post is this - if you can claim that inspite of all indicators to the contrary, you are a centrist and non INC-supporter, what are the yardsticks that one would use to identify a person as being partisan or right-wing ? You have been quite categorical that BRF is right-wing and pro-BJP - based on what indicators ?
Can these same indicators be twisted around by say Sanku (your bete noire) so he can claim he is centrist ?
>>>> Mani- I am done on my discussion with you. I have no wish to be sidetracked into a petty discussion that has no bearing on the larger point.
I see Barf Moral Compass steadfast here ...
1. You attack someone and accuse them.
2. You fail to back up your claims.
3. You find the discussion petty.
I hope you enjoy the snow as it blows past your face in your downhill endeavor.
Next time, think before opening your trap - THIS IS NOT BARF AND THERE ARE STANDARDS.
GinC you either have no sense of humour or are intentionally taking offense where none was intended.
I can at least see logic behind questioning Ramana's request to Somnath to reconsider his membership but I still do not understand what is offensive about Archan's comment "khaki chaddi wearing danda wielding" it clearly looks like for you khaki chaddi means RSS; btw even if it does how is it offensive ? Btw for someone who has been around I know for a fact that he was only referring to himself as a havaldar albiet in a sarcastic way.
As for RahulM, what about him ?
Finally I am not sure but have you divulged your handle on BRF here ? If yes then may be we can gtake the next step to find the cause of your takleef; if not and you do not wish to divulge your BRF handle here then I am afraid you are not helping your cause for it does not take long to figure out as to who is posting in what avatar :)
Mikey,
I see your done with discussion with the Prof. :)
It's my earnest hope that you're not done with me, as I'm eagerly waiting for your response to my last post which you promised to come up with.
But I see that you've labelled the Prof, Mav, and everyone else as Commie loving left-wing "traitors" (relax, I'm just borrowing BRF terminology).
Now you'd forgive us if we would want to know what wing you are? Right, Left, Under, Over or what?
I know on BRF you're a self-described Right-wing Liberal. But I've explained previously why such nomenclature is a non sequitur - you cannot be a liberal while professing to be closely aligned with a particular ideology. Just for you peace of mind, I'll add, that there's no such thing as a left-wing liberal either.
So what are you? If you're a Rightwing political activist then calling Mav and others leftwing is case of the pot calling the kettle black.
To the question about what constitutes a liberal, here's a nice meaning for the much abused word, in the political context:
- favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
- favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
Now can you honestly say that a Liberal point of view as espoused above is allowed on BRF today?
And if you think it is, then can you explain in that context, the treatment meted out the Somnath not only in terms of the "moral compass" comment but in terms of the kind of galis like liberally calling him anti-national and what not that was allowed, even after he very publicly left BRF following Ramana's comment?
If you don't answer these points and keep on attacking other posters by calling them left-wing one can only conclude that you're not here for an honest discussion. Instead you've been sent by some folks to act as an agent provocateur to disrupt discussions.
Which one is it?
Bemused, am not ignoring your questions.
But boss, can anyone help a little here? Is there a reason why only about every 4 out of every 10 attempts to post from my side go through? The posts initially show up as posted, but a few minutes later they disappear from the post list. I am using Firefox.
Are there any characters I should not be using?
regards: Subramanian Swamy. More I see him, the more he gives me the impression that the guy is a total tool. If he is against Sonia and Rahul, then surely there must be some redeeming feature about them that drives the culinary walas nuts and they need to use tools.
Bemused,
I want to be very clear on this. I have not labeled anybody anything.
Prof. Mani: Despite the little side-show we've been having, I don't think there's any strong material to suggest any definite tilt towards either INC or BJP.
Maverick & Anand: Articles and comments by both Mav and Anand strongly suggest a pro-INC, left-wing tilt. If they claim to be 'centrists', then my question would be on what basis they've determined BRF to be right-wing, it could be 'centrist' based on their same reasoning, for all they know.
I am not calling either of them a traitor. I am just saying it would be hypocritical of them to chastise those who use the 'treason' term wrt MMS when they've effectively leveled the same allegation at the BJP.
Bemused wrote: "So what are you? If you're a Rightwing political activist then calling Mav and others leftwing is case of the pot calling the kettle black."
Bemused, I have always self-identified myself as a right-wing liberal.
In simple terms, what that means is that on the economic side I am pro-growth and pro-entrepreneurship / business; and would expect the government only to play a proactive role in facilitating business and growth. This is as opposed to the leftist view of emphasising equality and redistribution of income over and above other priorities.
On the social side, as a liberal I am against intolerance (including religion / doctrinally -mandated intolerance). One way in which this is different from classic 'left-wing liberalism' is that it is also against doctrines / ideologies that have inbuilt intolerance features (such as exclusivist forms of Islam and Christianity or extreme versions of Hindutva).
Dynastic politics are a big no-no for me - this is one aspect that literally makes me want to puke.
My political views are basically derived from the above axioms. Obviously the Left is ruled out and so is the INC (as long as it is personal property of the Mainos).
I am not a 'political activist' in any manner at all, if by that you mean I am involved with any political party.
Well Mikey, it seems my post has now disappeared!
But I see you haven't answered all the questions I put up. But never mind this is not getting anywhere, we could argue till the cows come home.
However, just one point about the Congress. Your choice words about the "Manios" controlling the Congress shows your bias and how far you are from your so-called liberal point of view.
Sonia is head of this party not because she a Manio but because she's a Gandhi.
Just so that you note, I'm not happy with this concentration of power in the Gandhi family and I personally think - given all available evidence - that Rahul Gandhi would be a very bad PM if he were to ever occupy that seat. I also hope a day will come when, as one of the major parities in India they will have leaders who's surname is not a Gandhi.
However, the fact remains - whether you or your pals on BRF like it or not - Sonia Gandhi has been pretty much in charge of the Congress since Rajiv's assassination. That makes it how many years? Couple of decades at least?
Now within that period there have been several elections, some of which the Congress have lost and other which they have won.
What I'm trying to say is that Congress survives as a party and is in power for a 10 year stretch with Sonia as president due to the will of the people.
Now you may not like the will of the people and I'm sure if you hold an Indian passport and vote you've voted against Congress as millions of others have. But there are other millions who have voted for Congress led by Sonia Gandhi.
Now when you and your pals on BRF talk about Sonia Maino and her being an agent of the Pope or the CIA or Rockefeller Foundation or some such rubbish, what you're implying is that she is in power, not because that is the collective will of the majority section of the Indian population but because organisation inimical to India want it so.
I think that's a insult to Indian people and Indian democracy that is so unique. Sonia Gandhi may not demand respect but the Indian people who decide who will be in power every five years certainly deserve respect.
Why can't you get it into your head that when the majority of Indians think the way you do then Sonia Gandhi or Sonai Manio, whatever you want to call her will cease to matter.
Until that happens, you can puke till your insides come out but that will matter diddly squat.
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