Friday, January 09, 2015

Vedic Nonsense about Science

I am quite used to feckless idiots influencing science policy, but the situation in India is taking a turn for the worse.

The proponents of Vedic science are now in a position of power and they are keen to shape the realities of scientific research in India to their psychological needs.

Before we get to why I think this is the wrong thing to do, lets get out what is known about ancient India through physical evidence.

Like many ancient civilizations, India had knowledge of using astronomical cycles as time-keeping devices. The exact choice of natural clocks may have had something to do with ease of observation, but ancient Indians had the mathematical and measurement tools needed to handle this work. Without this India would not have had a calendar of any kind that was remotely usable.

There is clear physical evidence of stable furnace temperatures in the late Iron age, as we have located pottery glazes that can only be created in extremely hot furnaces. There is evidence of alloys and coatings being made in several idols and monuments. The exact dates on which these were structures fabricated cannot be established with high levels of accuracy. Again this is not unique to India, many other places have that and it impossible to prove it was done in India first.

All the other stuff - ancient vimanas, space travel, super-weapons etc... etc... is all rubbish you can find elsewhere also. The only thing that says is that ancient India definitely had imagination.

Now I am a very reasonable and rational person, if any of these proponents of Vedic science can use their superior knowledge of the Vedas and the science within it to build a time-machine and get us some physical evidence of these great discoveries of ancient India, I am willing to change my opinion.

Now lets get to why I think it is wrong to to use Vedic sounding stuff to justify scientific efforts in India.

Firstly, the implicit claim made by these Vedic science people today is that India was an awesome place, and it underwent a technological regression. When asked why did it regress, I am certain the answer will be "Muslims, Buddhists, Christians etc...". This is all a sophisticated ploy to sow the seeds of sectarian hatred. That is a fantastically stupid premise to base scientific inquiry on.

Secondly, if we ignore the implicit claim, and use the Vedic science approach of looking for "inspiration" in the Vedas, we will end up staring at documents written in a dead language, sorting through tidbits of information wrapped up in layers of pseudo-science, spiritual rubbish etc... Seriously if I ask you to find a cure for cancer in India, and you decide to go to the "Vedas for inspiration" - where will you start? in an upanishad? in a samhita? a sutta? or the actual Rg Veda? and how will you know that you interpretation is correct?

Thirdly, if I do some path-breaking science in India, I want the credit for it. I don't want the credit to go to some unnamed ancient Indian sage who is in a Vedic text as interpreted by some "Vedic Science Scholars" who understand exactly jack about what I have discovered. I am very proud of whatever science and technology was created in ancient India, but I don't want to share credit for what I spend blood, sweat and tears (mostly of my grad-students actually... but still) with some ancient dude whose work I have no way of using. And I take a dim view of scientific papers which start by a reference to Einstein, Turing, or the nearest Nobel laureate's paper.

I am told I am being too extreme when I compare the situation in India to the early days of Nazi Germany, and yet this kind "Vedic slanting" was at the core of the Aryan Science crap that the Nazis peddled. The only difference was that the Nazis claimed that they were the real inheritors of the legacy of the veda-spouting Aryan forefathers.

Seriously guys, a nation of 1.25 Billion Indians most of who cannot read or understand Sanskrit can do without this nonsense.

149 Comments:

At 6:35 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

It gets laughable when these guys start claiming 10,000+ years of Vedic history, like going back to the Ice Age! Where is the verifiable archological evidence for these assertions? Where is the carbon dating? Same for assertions of previous weapons and or science development in Vedic scriptures? It's similar to the moron fundamentalist Christians asserting previous such development in the Bible. Nothing but sheer fantasy. What's worse is that none of these groundless assertions garners any real respect for their religious faith because it is deemed so ridiculously schizo and out of mind BS.

 
At 11:33 PM, Blogger Biggus Slickus said...

IMO the commie/leftist version of Lysenkoism was not all pervasive: only because they never ruled the whole country. Now that the Bhajapas are ascendant throughout there's a chance that the chaddiwaala version of this will happen.

 
At 5:27 AM, Blogger maverick said...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/world/asia/new-courts-offer-pakistans-generals-the-power-they-used-to-seize.html

meanwhile across the street, another dark shape rises in the mist.

 
At 5:34 AM, Blogger maverick said...

I don't have a problem with people clinging to fantasies about what is in the Vedas.

Everyone is entitled to a certain amount of idiotic beliefs.

Science is about what is provable and not about what is scientific rubbish.

It is bad enough to have deal with unsympathetic IAS babus who won't provide funding for an experiment because they have no clue what you are talking about... now one will have to prove that the flavor changing Neutrino was first discovered in the Vedas and we are merely rediscovering it - before they agree to fund the detector.

I am sorry but there is only so much idiotic nonsense my poor brain can tolerate.

Maybe the cure for Ebola is also in the Vedas waiting for some VHP Mahant to actually read the text and tell us what it says.


 
At 5:16 PM, Blogger maverick said...


India's sliding down the path to Nazi Germany... and Pakistan's political class has called it a day and handed over the everything to the Army.

War seems inevitable at this point.

The last time this happened was when ABV took power. Initially it was all handshakes, poetry and sugar deals with Nawaz, and then Musharraf took helm.

In the initial days misunderstandings were at an all time high. No one knew what exactly Musharraf had planned.

Only the Nahan-wale were willing to openly say "We know how this guy thinks". But no one wanted to listen to them. Listening to them would have made too much sense, and politics - civilian or military - never does things that make too much sense.

The result of all the miscommunications and paranoia was Op. Parakram. Somehow a major catastrophe was averted, but now all the key components of an escalation are right there 50km from the IB.

I like ABV a lot, but I get the sense the poor man was pushed beyond his limits by the situation. He was an exceptional consensus builder and a very positive person - I don't know if he appreciated that his handling of the situation had basically ended with putting matches right next to the gasoline.

I wonder if that is why kept silent after his time. Some said it was illness, but neither bade Mishraji nor chote Mishraji spoke to anyone about what he thought. And now he is too ill to speak for himself.

Someone better start thinking about how to put this genie back into the bottle before things get really out of hand.

 
At 7:41 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Well, the latest word is that Hinduism is *NOT* a religion. The brighter lights of the Hindutvas insist it is a unique culture and philosophy. Never mind that a number of Hindus lie down and prostrate themselves in front of religious objects or they fold their hands together and bow. Sure looks like worshiping to me. Could have fooled me. So we can't call Hindutvas religious fanatics?

 
At 7:47 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

To further extrapolate, when Christian fundamentalists listen to preachers screaming about sin (usually committed by others) and say "Amen" they are not worshiping either. They are merely following their unique cultural practices and philosophy of life?

 
At 10:02 AM, Blogger vvv666 said...

Asking Viman-wallas for archaeological evidence is futile because they believe in the dictum "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

 
At 10:29 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Ralphy,

The way these people use "Hinduism" is inconsistent.

When it comes to describing it as a "religion" - they object saying it is " a way of life that encompasses all aspects of Indian society - so much so that every Indian is basically a Hindu".

But when someone says "Hinduism is the root of caste based oppression".. then suddenly people trot out the phrase "you can't blame Hinduism for the ills of Indian society..."

It is a very selective and context sensitive use of the term.

I wouldn't put much stock in that statement.

Dear vvv666,

> The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Hence the time machine reference.

 
At 10:43 AM, Blogger maverick said...


Hinduism is a body of philosophical, social and spiritual knowledge that has existed in southern parts of Asia for several millennia.

It's exact form is difficult to describe succinctly as it has no central canon or documentation style, and there is considerable diversity in the manner in which self-professed Hindus express their affiliation.

Self-professed Hindus tend to self-organize into sub-groups with varying levels of orthodoxy and orthopraxy. The sub-sects/groups/cults tend to adhere to different rituals and ceremonial norms. It also common for Hindus to speak many different languages.

All this diversity is somehow averaged over and relatively stable commonly held norms exist in Hindu society. As with any norms, getting caught on the wrong side of the norm - usually elicits a strong social and moral cost.

The idea of using these highly average common norms as a political unifying principle has been proposed at numerous times in Indian history and met with varying degrees of success. Per historical data, there is nothing to suggest that the Hindu common norms are particularly superior to other forms of political organization.

This latter part I feel will come as a shock to many of the Hindutva-vadis. Like the followers of Mahatma Gandhi, they too will find that their beloved ideological core is replaced by a cult of personality worship and crass commercialism. Again this is a phenomena that has occurred before in history.

 
At 10:47 AM, Blogger maverick said...


On the Ghar Wapsi issue, I have very mixed feelings.

I feel the idea of people being forced to convert to "Hinduism" is wrong. I find the Satsang chalak terming human beings as "maal" (lifeless goods) as morally vacant. I am stunned he would use such terms to address living beings.

However, it is also correct that those that want to return to the "Hindu" practices don't have a way to do so. If Ghar Wapsi can provide that path - then they should be allowed to change their religious association from whatever to Hindu in official documents like the National ID cards, passports and wills.

 
At 9:30 PM, Blogger vvv666 said...

The Agra ghar wapsi actually targeted some Bangladeshi migrants. See:

http://www.abplive.in/india/2014/12/14/article454857.ece/Muslims-converted-to-Hinduism-in-Agra-accept-they-are-from-Bangladesh

On one hand, the political wing of Sangh parivar claims to vigorously oppose Bangaleshi migrants, and on the other hand, they promise ration cards etc. if the migrants convert to Hinduism :) I don't know whether to call it hypocrisy, or just taking a short cut. VHP cadres either did not find bonafide India citizens who were willing to go along with their ghar wapsi ritual, or they just took a short cut and found the cheapest alternative. An (illegal) ration card won't cost VHP a whopping 3 lakh Rs, which they open seek to collect in their donation campaigns, for a conversion. So clearly, there was some profit making going on too.

Scaling back of ghar wapsi was likely necessitated as this would have been extremely embarassing to Modi, who has been quite vocal about evicting Bangladeshi migrants.

 
At 7:19 AM, Blogger maverick said...


I think ghar wapsi would have provided a very useful service to many Hindus.

A number of Hindus work in Muslim countries and experience maltreatment and discrimination on account of the backwards attitudes in those countries. These problem tend to reduce in number if you convert to Islam in those countries.

Now if we had a ghar wapsi program, the Hindus working in these countries could convert to Islam when they were in these Muslim countries and then do a "ghar wapsi" and get the Hindu status reassigned when they came back to India.

The government of India would charge them a reasonable fee for changing their religious status on their official documentation and they would be able to use their pre-conversion name and caste affiliation in all legal matters, visit Hindu pilgrimage sites, perform Hindu rituals (birth,marriage, and death rites) without attracting any for opprobrium or social disfavor.

w.r.t the Bangladeshi thing, honestly I think the Hindutva-vadis are schizophrenic on that issue. One segment wants to treat the Bangladeshis as cheap labor, another wants to ethnically cleanse them. The only point of agreement in the Hindutva-vadis is that Bangladeshi Muslims residing in India should be exploited or mistreated. Converting them to "Hinduism" is just going to make the issue confusing beyond all comprehension.

A section of the Hindutva-vadis associates America's strength and prosperity with the dominance of its "christian" value set. A number of US based Hindutva types take the US to be a model for how India should be.

These people don't know the how intense the struggle between the American national ethos and these religio/ethno-centric ideologies has been in centuries past. They are not aware how close the US itself came to becoming Nazi Germany. Not one of these people will be able to tell you how the battle against the dangerous ideas of the Eugenics society was fought and won.

 
At 1:39 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

And not just the US. Countries like Sweden also sterilized the mentally retarded or "undesirables". Unlike the US, Sweden was supposed to be a sharing and caring country, eh? their sterilization program went to the late '50's or early '60s.

 
At 9:08 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Yes, but Sweden is an evil, secular, socialist republic like Nehruvian India so it has no attraction for the Hindutva-vadis.

Until the girl with the dragon tattoo story, most people didn't know about Sweden's struggle against the pile of Nazi crap that floated over from Germany.

 
At 9:09 AM, Blogger maverick said...

It is amazing what people get away with when patient rights are not strongly defended in every nook and cranny of society.

 
At 6:54 AM, Blogger maverick said...

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/challenge-planets-part-two-high-energy/

interesting article

 
At 1:08 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Yes a lot of the nuclear rocket research was shut down due to fear of contamination from failed launches. Even now, the launch of a RTG generator causes protests at Cape Canaveral. Russia of course does not have these silly problems.

 
At 9:21 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Besides RTGs, the US has launched one full nuclear generator, the SNAP-10A. It didn't last very long nor work very well so it was the only one. The Soviets have launched a number of nuclear generators under the RORSAT program. They have since been discontinued. The US continues to use RTGs for deep space like the New Horizon probe fast approaching Pluto this year. There is just not enough sunlight to power the probe's functions out that far. It will continue on to the Kuiper belt and visit a mini planet out there.

 
At 9:18 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Yeah.. getting off the ground with one of these orion type ships is a bad idea.

But once in space, it should be okay. Get out beyond the moon, and there is plenty of radiation there any way.

Also if the earth were falling apart - then the fallout wouldn't be an issue really. If we had to get off the planet anyway... then who cares how much radiation we spew all over the place.

I really wish I worked on those issues then I would have greater understanding of why the choices are made.

 
At 5:39 AM, Blogger maverick said...

A major spike in communal incidents has occurred over the last week. The incidents are in different parts of India and there does not appear to be a direct link between the various incidents.

The logical thing to do at this point would be to ask the internal affairs department to issue a warning to all hypersensitive districts to be on the look out for more tension between communities.

People may want to read this in detail.

http://newsclick.in/india/timeline-recent-communal-violence-delhi-0

JJ Colony sits next to AFS Ghogha Road which is a SAM site and CRPF Camp. This colony was set up a decade ago after slum demolition elsewhere displaced people, but now it sits in a prime real estate zone identified by Delhi Development Authority for making high rise apartments. There are a few "jhuggi jhopdi" (slums) in the area, but most of the labor in the area for menial jobs comes from JJ Colony.

All this makes JJ colony and its fringes ripe for disruption by communal forces. As the people in the area are occupying their land legally, they cannot be evicted by court ordered means. The next option then is to create communal tension in the area and force the Muslims in the region to sell their property for low prices and move out. And that is what is being done by Hindutva-vadis. To this end they are organizing a number of "Mahapanchayats" in the nearby villages and drumming up support. Muslim religious events are not openly being referred to as "ISIS breeding grounds" and "Terror processions".

Once the communal tension reaches a certain level, violence will ensure. Then the land in JJ Colony will be secured under a sub-section of the Disturbed Areas Act, just like it was in Ahmedabad. Whoever controls this dispensation of the land under the disturbed areas act will effectively set the price of the land in that part of Delhi.

This is the kind of dynamic I was pointing to in my earlier post.

 
At 5:47 AM, Blogger maverick said...

The VHP is celebrating some sort of anniversary.

The meetings that take place in connection with this anniversary celebration will doubtlessly be used to conceptually plan out more communal escalations.

I have never seen a religio-political body tied more closely at the hip with real-estate groups than the VHP.

The only thing that comes very close to this is to settler-types in Israel and they are very small numbers by comparison to the VHP.

 
At 5:47 AM, Blogger maverick said...

The Moditva types seem to be very comfortable with the land-grabbers in the Hindutva-vadi garb.

 
At 8:44 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

"Moditva", heh, heh, I like that! Good one.

 
At 10:15 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

I note that in Astronomy magazine an article states that construction has begun on the Thirty Meter Telescope ("TMT") atop Mauna Kea in Hawaii. The mirror (or mirrors) will be almost 100 foot wide. It will take a decade to complete. Hope it works correctly.

 
At 6:15 AM, Blogger Sanatanan said...

Here is one link that gives India's connection with the TMT Project [India joins the Thirty Meter Telescope project as a full member, LiveMint, Dec 03, 2014]

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/ZtRszyDDxMd4BSVFsx7swI/India-joins-the-Thirty-Meter-Telescope-project-as-a-full-mem.html

 
At 8:10 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

I also note with pleasure that tigers in India are making a comeback of sorts. Their population has actually increased unlike in other Asian countries. Way to go India.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/20/asia/tiger-population-india/index.html

 
At 3:28 AM, Blogger maverick said...

http://qz.com/324481/these-are-the-ten-commandments-of-hinduism-in-the-21st-century/

decent-ish read

 
At 3:40 AM, Blogger maverick said...

I want to know more about the author of this piece.

I think I agree with his piece as a best-case scenario - where somehow all this enthusiasm for progress actually leads somewhere "good".

There is a middle-case scenario where all this urge to progress simply turns into a nasty fight over real-estate and the country gradually slides into a bottomless pit of rioting.

Then there is worst-case scenario where the urge for progress drives India down the path that Germany, Pakistan and other places have walked down.

We do not know at this point where the future leads us.

It is difficult to believe that the worst case/middle case scenarios will not come to pass.

 
At 3:53 AM, Blogger maverick said...

It may be best to divide the three scenarios into the following.

1) Best case - sporadic killings of minorities, occasional rioting. A few instances of overt land-grabbing. Lots of internally displaced peoples but largely "peaceful".

2) Middle case - large scale rioting, and disorganized mass killings (a la Rwanda-Burundi). Massive land grabs accompanied by severe IDP crisis.

3) Worst case - state sponsored genocide. (a la Nazi Germany).

 
At 3:44 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

It seems that Modi and Obama are quite close and striking deals. Probably much to the Hindutvas' disgust

 
At 9:12 AM, Blogger maverick said...

I am not so sure.

There is a lot of bromance going on.

Things may be couched in terms which are inaccurate representations of reality. Progress on the liability bill should not be misconstrued as anything resembling a wider movement on nuclear issues between India and the US.

The absence of direct nuclear technology purchases from the US will be treated as a red-flag by the international financial community which will then attach a high risk to any nuclear commerce with India. This risk rating will diminish India's strides towards increased nuclear energy production.

For the nuclear deal to proceed further, India needs to buy things from the US. In order to do that, it must make a real commitment on its military nuclear posture.

The biggest gray areas in that context are

1) the extent of weaponization of India nuclear devices and

2) the yields associated with any of India's weaponized devices.

At the present time, India does not feel confident enough to clarify these issues in an objective fashion.

Without such a clarification, it is unlikely that any US president will have enough to go further with.

 
At 9:19 AM, Blogger maverick said...

in the interests of greater clarity on this.

In 2004, Prime Minister Singh and President Bush reached an agreement to supply India with US nuclear technology on the grounds that India assured the US that anything US supplied would not be used to make nuclear weapons. This included equipment and fuel.

There was considerable opposition to this in the US from sectors of the national security community which felt that India could renege on such an assurance as it once did in 1974.

The Indian counterpoint to this was that it couldn't trust the US to supply any form of nuclear technology because in the past US firms had supplied technology that was bad (ex. Union Carbide/Bhopal Gas Tragedy) or simply cut the supply of spare parts (ex. F-16s to Pakistan).

The work-around for this situation was the Indian government agreed to shoulder the responsibility of the civilian liability for US supplied equipment and the USG agreed to do everything possible to keep India aligned with wider non-proliferation policies.

It is here that the mismatch currently lies - where the Modi-Obama bromance might actually lead somewhere - i.e. can the Modi government shoulder this responsibility for liability and keep India's nuclear ambitions in alignment with wider US non-proliferation goals?

It is too early to say anything.

 
At 9:26 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Everything one sees points to a growing gap between what Sri. Modi needs in India and what President Obama needs in the US.

In order to cement his posture as the natural successor to Pt. Nehru, Modiji must make a massive commitment on nuclear issues.

Sri. Vajpayee was forced to make a similar commitment to silence his detractors in all sections of the polity and to assure the BJP a lasting place in India's political spectrum.

There are limited way in which to do this -

1) Test a high yeild (> 1MT) nuclear device.

2) Test a medium-yeild (100s of kT) weaponized warhead.

3) Test a fully-mated low yeild (10s of kT) warhead on a fully deployed delivery system.

Any of these events would represent a significant escalation in the nuclear security threat level in the region.

It is not possible for this to be aligned with the non-proliferation objectives of the USG.

Given its lack of leverage with Sri. Modi, the best the Obama administration can hope for at this point that the GoI will notify them of the planned course of action, so that the whole business of acting surprised can be convincingly choreographed in DC.

 
At 11:07 AM, Blogger maverick said...

FWIW every Indian PM has had to make a commitment on nuclear issues. It is the price of the bride when you become PM.

Again nothing specially good/bad about Modiji in that context yet.

But this is a matter that carries grave consequences if you get it wrong.

 
At 11:12 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Another decent read

http://jcr.sagepub.com/content/58/8/1445.full?keytype=ref&siteid=spjcr&ijkey=Mwaua0ThkgVfU

 
At 11:26 AM, Blogger maverick said...

I thought Jaideep was a police officer in India but I am wrong.

(http://www.ids.ac.uk/files/dmfile/JaideepGupteCV-April2013.pdf)

I think the stats in the report have probably come from the Maha Police CID. Though the model and the correlations it draws on are most likely unique to the paper.

Very interesting work.

 
At 11:28 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Man, this Jaideep guy is good...

http://www.governanceanddevelopment.com/2014/05/four-sets-of-interconnected-numbers.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IDSGovblog+%28Governance+IDS+research+cluster+blog%29

 
At 10:41 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Just wondering: do you think Modi's gay? I know he is married but he doesn't seem to hang around any females. And he digs the clothes thing. Just idle thoughts. Doesn't make any real difference. Hitler seemed to have problems with females. Never married although he had a girl friend.

 
At 10:04 AM, Blogger maverick said...


I normally don't comment on people's personal preferences in sexual matters, but these is no evidence to suggest that Modiji is gay.

There are allegations that he had affairs outside his marriage, but they were all with women.

Homosexuality in India is very strange thing. It is illegal per the Indian Penal Code and people don't talk about it, but in society there is acceptance of transsexuals and homosexual contact in general.

If there was anything, I am sure it would come out by now.

 
At 4:55 AM, Blogger maverick said...

High officials of the government of India only serve at the pleasure of the Prime Minister.

The removal of Sri. Chander had sent alarm bells ringing inside the establishment. As some of you may be aware, that Sri. Chander was one of the most vocal proponents of the "really no need to bounce rubble" approach.

One of the oldest arguments in the book (in as much as it exists) is that black box INS is unfeasible. The usual workarounds are astro-inertial, GPS or RF referencing to correct the errors that accumulate in the gyros and accelerometers but all these make for an inherently unreliable and insecure delivery option. This is typically used to support the need for a bigger bang.

The removal of Smt. Sujata Singh is unlikely to produce a similar impact.

 
At 3:21 AM, Blogger vvv666 said...

Some of these look like straight out of BRF's member-only GDF section:

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/bob-marley-or-baba-murali-ten-mind-blowing-revelations-by-subramaniam-swamy/523457-79.html

 
At 5:31 AM, Blogger maverick said...

There is this thing called the Baghdad battery which may have been used for galvanizing surfaces - but there is no way to prove that.

This captures the essence of the problem I referred to in my post. I don't think any of these claims of advanced metallurgy can be dated with any level of precision.

 
At 5:46 AM, Blogger maverick said...

The PMO is now under attack.

In a parallel to the Stennes revolt, Rajaeshwar Singh led the first charge.

Now in a fashion similar to the Rohm revolt, a second assault is underway.

Subramaniam Swamy and the Vedic Science lunatics represent one arm of a pincer aimed at the PMO. The other arm is Sakshi Maharaj.

The aim of the pincer is to force Prime Minister Modi to completely hand over the destiny of India to the
a disorganized and incoherent group of people who visibly use religion to consolidate their power. These people are backed by massive real estate mafiosi. The real estate mafias want to dictate the precise price of all housing in India.

The effect of a surrender in the PMO will be catastrophic at this point. The economic agenda will be completely derailed and the country will slide into a Rwanda style genocide.

The population at large does not comprehend the magnitude of the problem.

 
At 6:11 AM, Blogger maverick said...

All these people are keen to put the word Hindu in front of every other word in the dictionary. And they want to define what the word Hindu means.

It is difficult to see how that kind of attitude isn't going to result in mass murder.

Any government in India has to confront what can be termed the population paradox. Having a large population is great because it gives you a massive market in terms of labor and goods. However maintaining this large population in any level of coherent activity is a massive headache.

The Hindutva-vadis believe that the word "Hindu" has magical properties and can unite this large mass of people into common causes. This is a fantasy. Any term that causes that much cohesion will also prevent critical faculties from prevailing in an emergent situation. This is the paradox of unification, that which unifies a large mass of people, also becomes a disastrous group-think that decimates the very people it unifies.

 
At 8:25 AM, Blogger maverick said...

http://www.indiatvnews.com/politics/national/sakshi-maharaj-does-about-turn-praises-modi-25837.html

"After being quoted as saying he can make or break the government, controversial BJP MP Sakshi Maharaj today did an about turn and praised Prime Minister Narendra Modi for his politics of “inclusive development” and described him as a “divine power”.

The five-time MP, a Hindutva voice, who has been served a show cause notice for his controversial statements, had in a media interview said that Modi should concentrate on the economy on the one hand and the Hindu agenda on the other. He had also reportedly said, “I can make or break the government.”

Today, he sang a different tune when he said the construction of Ram temple could wait because the government was focused on development. Maharaj, however, insisted that everybody, including Modi, wants a Ram temple at the disputed site in Ayodhya.

He also denied having issued any threat to the government, saying he was wrongly quoted and went on to claim that he was a soldier of Modi and his admirer. “How can I say that I can make or break the government. Such an arrogance does not befit even a fool... Modi is India’s divine destiny. I am his soldier. He is not a common man but a divine power. The idea he has for the progress of India and its place in the world is not possible for a common man to think,” he told PTI.

Prodded about his statement that Hindus should have four children to counter “growing” population of Muslims, he said he wanted uniform civil laws for all communities as surging population of the country is a concern."

I think the exact words to Sakshi Maharaj from the representative from 7RCR might have been... "Recant or die".

 
At 8:34 AM, Blogger maverick said...


The problem is not Sakshi Maharaj or Subramaniam Swamy.

These are just the output points. These can be modulated selectively with the application of the proper pressure.

The very real problem is that there is a very large number of young Hindu men who strongly believe that a new age has dawned.

The hopes and aspirations of an entire generation of people are now coalesced into something very nasty.

Per their point of view, not only is the rule of the Congress "haramzadeh" over, but the age of the badzaat Muslims/Christians/etc... is also coming to an end. And those blasted women that are parading around in their skirts and pants pretending to earn wages and have independent lifestyles, well their time is up too.

To these hardline types, nothing short of a complete holocaust or genocide will be sufficient.

The views one hears from Sakshi Maharaj and Subramaniam Swamy are merely echoes of this deeply seated malevolent entity.

 
At 8:39 AM, Blogger maverick said...

In the gilded age of the Pir Roshan Bayazid a.k.a Musharraf the Magnificent.... a lowly deobandi mureed by the name of Syed Adnan Kakakhel had challenged the magnificent one on public television. The magnificent one had simply sat through the mureed's challenge but a few days later, one of the highest ranking and most protected of Aapbara's religious workhorses was yanked out of his car on the outskirts of Islamabad and beaten to within in an inch of his life.

The men who did this to the exalted cleric wore shalwar kameezes and drove a toyota with no number plates.

The cleric survived, but was in hospital for an extraordinarily long time. Needless to say, he never filed a complaint and no one was ever arrested for the crime and neither did his fantastically loyal followers who normally kill women and children without a second thought... did anything as a reprisal.

 
At 9:02 AM, Blogger maverick said...

The rumors are correct.

Home Secretary has been asked to leave by the PM.

 
At 10:32 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

Mav and co, two cents of unwarranted advise.

Stop acting like jokers by pushing this NaMo == Nazi dramabaazi. I know some of you Bombay-ites hate the Gujjus for whatever reasons, please come out honestly and say so. Even we saauthies dont harbor such crapfests with other saauthies. Real estate mafia are there everywhere, whether NDA or UPA or even the communist left.

For what post-50 India is/was, religion-driven violence in India is abysmally low relative to ANY reasonable metric that one could take. You want statistical evidence, its not hard to provide one. One has to look at the data right and use the right metrics. Or one could wear a tin-foil hat and hunt for small outliers of crap in any data, you can find that too. This has nothing to do with Modi, more to do with what India is and what India will remain.

As far as Vedic drama, take a chill pill. Its not like India is being taken over by retards in a vimaana taking their astras from their kundis (pardon that beautiful word) and swiping the noses of their sworn enemies. The more you act like India is binary, the more you belong to one of the warring parties. And screw both the warring parties.

 
At 8:41 PM, Blogger PradeepE said...

Its best understood when you put all of this under political hack job categories. Craftily messaged though. Nothing less to be expected of course.
And with useful idiots jumping around the fire, it has a beautiful gunga din setting.

 
At 9:19 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Yes Mav, don't make a stink it will look bad for India and you don't want that to happen now do you? You wouldn't want to find yourself at odds with a personality cult now would you?

 
At 11:54 PM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

Dont you smartypants in the US still pray at the lotus feet of one Reagan?

What was that shite called, Reagonomics?!

Like Jesus said, look at the mirror, sonnie, look at the mirror and wipe that oozing bilge from your mouth.

 
At 2:03 AM, Blogger vvv666 said...

Yep all this is drama. The recent Delhi church fires are caused by electrical short circuits. No resemblance to synagogue burnings whatsoever :-\

 
At 5:52 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

I just had a crazy dream. All those Reganite Republicans parading around in their shorts giving strange salutes.

 
At 7:15 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

vvv, in a country of 300 million, you can have all buncha crazies. Some knocking over abortion clinics, some knocking over fed buildings in Ok city, some nooses hanging randomly in college campuses, some spray painting of synagogues and Hindu temples, some rather nice stuff said on prime-time tv and all hidden under the name of first amendment, the law catches up to some of them at its own speed and to many of them never at all. Yet uncle Obama is still uncle Obama, while Modi is some bhooth?

Get a grip, every accusation has to be commensurate with the proportion of the incidents. You dont even have a govt worthy of its name in Dilli and its all run from some hinterland inside SB. Yet you are indulging in this bs-fest.

Religious violence happens because of a 100 reasons, most of which are local. When the Christian population has gone up by 1.5+%, I am sure some of these guys have brushed up some of the bahubalis in a weird way. Who knows what has happened? If Modi sarkaar has to panhandle the responsibility for every riot (small or large) in India, we have come to a sorryass world where uncle Obama has to be put in a cross-examination cube every second of his life for all the orders that get passed on in the morning that leads to 100 repercussions.

IOW, take ENO.

Buddy from Tejas: Ecclesiastes 5:7 says, "For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God." Please dont go into the vanity mode, fear god.

 
At 4:28 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

follow your own words dude. You go from making personal insults to quoting the bible? Is this your unique Vedic cultural perogative?

 
At 7:26 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Pax,

I have no problem with Gujjus or Southies or Biharis.

I think Morarji Desai was a great PM.

I don't have the same sense about Modiji. I don't believe is as good for India as some make him out to be.

The PMO is under attack. This happened once before when Atalji was PM. But Atal Bihari was strong, Modi is not.

He will not be able to resist the pressures of the Hindu right wing for long.

He keeps telling the VHP types that he wants to improve the economy before he can let them go to town on the Muslims and Christians, but they don't want to listen to him.

This is the exact framework that Hitler attempted to impose on SA characters like Rohm. The threat posed by Rohm and his terrorist minions eventually led to the creation of the SS and the RHSA. Look it up - it is in the history books.

Today Modiji is firing senior bureaucrats and replacing them with people he thinks he can control. Sri. Rajnath Singh's tenure as MHA is turning into a private joke. Every file he signs - the PMO re-annotates with different instruction. Not a single nominee proposed by him has been appointed to any sensitive position.

In the next month or so, DOPT will begin rearranging the furniture. At this point you may see senior police officers in the MHA being replaced by officers handpicked by Amit Shah himself.

A few weeks after the great election, a BJP leader was hacked to death in the streets of Noida. Take a guess who has been arrested? ... No one... Amazing isn't it? a ruling party worker gets brutally murdered weeks after his party wins a major victory and the police do not catch anyone? when has that happened before?

You don't have to believe me when I say something, just read the news and decide for yourself.

 
At 7:30 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear PradeepE,

It is easy to dismiss what I am saying as political hack etc... etc...

It is much harder to accept the fact that India is sliding down the same hole as Germany or Rwanda.

Anyway you don't have to believe anything I say - just watch the news and see what it says.

 
At 10:32 PM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

>> Sri. Rajnath Singh's tenure as MHA is turning into a private joke. Every file he signs - the PMO re-annotates with different instruction. Not a single nominee proposed by him has been appointed to any sensitive position.

And you know this how? Had a drone watch Rajnath Singh make his moves? Or did Rajnath Singh say this to you?

>> You don't have to believe me when I say something, just read the news and decide for yourself.

Wonderful. And your decision after reading the news is that Modi == Nazi. GRE comprehension skills ke liye ek chakka maara.

 
At 10:36 PM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

Proverbs 13:10, "Through insolence comes nothing but strife, but wisdom is with those who receive counsel."

 
At 10:50 PM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

>> I think Morarji Desai was a great PM.

Why? Because he was a Marathi taking on the UP cabal? Why exactly was he a great PM? What are his achievements and why do they lift him up the pedestal over everyone else? I am not asking for whether Morarjibhai was a great person or otherwise. I am asking for why exactly he was a great PM. What are your metrics? Can you use the same set of metrics to categorize every PM of India barring Gulzari Lal Nanda? Where does Morarjibhai come in that list? I am curious to know. I am sure this will be an educating exercise.

For the record, my best and worst are both the same: Indira Gandhi. Someone who subverted democracy could not be a good PM, but only because she subverted democracy and was an earlier incarnation of JJ could she get some version of the job done in 71. But then it goes in circles to show how politically naive she turned out at the table after doing all the hard work. JLN is not the worst by any means. VP ranks quite high for his pro-reservation actions -- a very very needful exercise. PVNR and ABV dont rank so highly as barfiland would like it to be. And Rajiv ranks quite decently for the one singular task of shortcutting the telecom revolution in India, the fruits which we will continue to reap for decades. Again, I am not making it all like my rankings are agmark awesome. I am just curious to see why Morarjibhai is so high on your charts.

>> I don't have the same sense about Modiji. I don't believe is as good for India as some make him out to be.

Modi may or may not be great as his fanbois make him out to be. But he cant be a super-flop as you seem to make him out to be, not flop-pier than some of the jokers we seem to have had like Charan Singh. In any case, I am looking forward to your logic (or its lack thereof).

 
At 11:07 PM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

>> It is much harder to accept the fact that India is sliding down the same hole as Germany or Rwanda.

Again, in what sense? In which metrics is India sliding to the "same hole as Germany or Rwanda."

Look, its easier to bs around in rhetoric. I too can do that. Dont do half-jobs. Make a case with data, I am willing to buy that Modi is Hiranyakashipu himself. You want me to believe it, or read your head, or read the news and make up my head, you are doing the same verbal calisthenics as some of the people you actually viscerally hate on barfiland.

Bro, to convert the rhetoric to HARD facts is indeed a hard job. I am sure you can win far more followers with this line of thought if you would put those facts down. Let me see, I will put down a friendly wager of $101. Game on?

Its not like I love Modi or something. I am agnostic to what he does or does not. In a sense, my very existence or otherwise is immaterial to what reality is. But I will call bs on this "India is sliding down a shithole" argument any day. If India were to slide down a shithole cos of one person, we have a highly fragile system that can be easily disrupted and should be in the deepest pits by now never to recover. The very fact that it is not (because if it were, you would nt even care two hoots about it to worry abt it endlessly and make 10s of posts so far on related topics) means that the system is robust, whatever the system is. Just because you care not to see eye-to-eye the robustness that lies in (whether you are on this side or that side of the debate) does nt make it un-robust.

 
At 4:20 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Hello Pax,

The state of the MHA is all over the news. If you look you will find it. Right now the entire MHA is basically run by Sri. Ajit Doval and Amit Shah.

I think Sri. Doval is a most experienced person with a deep understanding of the critical nature of national security matters. I am happy to see him exert an influence over the functioning of a key department, but I worry that he is not directly elected, and that his efforts will be seen as undermining democratic processes.

Wrt Amit Shah, I don't have anything positive to say. His record in Gujurat speaks for itself.

Morarji Desai was not a native Marathi speaker. AFAIK He never "took on the UP cabal".

Morarji Desai was a Gujurati brahmin from Valsad area in present day Gujurat. When he was the CM of the old Bombay Presidency, he attempted to block the creation of Maharashtra and Gujurat from the Bombay Presidency. He ordered the police to fire on peaceful protesters at Flora Fountain and that led to a hundred people dying in police firing. When he found out that an 11 year girl was among the dead, he neatly blamed the entire fiasco on my friend's grandfather who happened to be the Police Commissioner at the time. Morarji Desai was a terrible CM of the Bombay Presidency.

That being said, I think this same Morarji Desai was a great PM because he brought certain aspects of bureaucratic misuse of power at the national level under control. During the emergency, some bureaucrats had become very heavy handed in their approach to problems and this was making their organisations into a blight on the republic. PM Morarji Desai put a stop to all that.

Generally speaking his achievements as PM were a stark contrast to his record as the CM of the Bombay Presidency.

To me, Morarji Desai symbolizes the innate strength of Gandhian thoughts.

I hope this fad with Moditva and Hindutva doesn't turn India into a pile of radioactive ash, and that someday in the future, the relevance of Gandhian thought is rediscovered.

 
At 4:23 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Pax,

>Again, in what sense? In which metrics is India sliding to the "same hole as Germany or Rwanda."

Again - you don't have to take my word for it.

Go read the papers and look at the communal temperature of the country.

Go read the various far right blogs and news sources.

Go listen to what known associates of these right wing organizations are saying.

If you do this, you will reach the same conclusion.

I don't know when trends like this will be reflected in a size detectable by statistical filters, but by then, it will be too late to do anything but take data i.e count the number of dead one buries in a pit.

 
At 6:42 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

>> I don't know when trends like this will be reflected in a size detectable by statistical filters, but by then, it will be too late to do anything but take data i.e count the number of dead one buries in a pit.

Okayyy, so when trends existed of INC frittering away all their electoral advantages, that also must have probably not registered on any statistical algorithm cos the trenchant criticism primarily came from blogs, twitter and facebook (with defeaning silence from the mainstream media). As Mme. Jayanti tax revealed a few days back and Sanjaya Baru revealed a few months back, misgovernance was not an accident while the Prime Minister was.

At the end of the day, where things mattered, people voted them out. If what BJP/NDA is doing is so terribly bad, people will vote them out too. If they do not, it has only one meaning: people do not care about the communal temperature (may be you may have to then make your peace with that possible outcome). Or is this your attempt at subverting that process to try to influence as many people to vote against BJP?

I dont deny you your potential rights to garner enuf votes for either side, but if you are trying to do that, please be transparent to declare that you are. There is a difference between an impartial analyst and a biased (slightly or whatever judgment call is) egger-on. Dont try to wear two hats, its a ludicrous weight to carry. Shadow boxing with shadows is a shitty job, at least please to come out of your shadow and say "I hate everything BJP stands for."

That brings me the question: is there some aspect in which you think the BJP is good? Or are they bad in every reasonable aspect? Good to clarify. For the record, I can find nuff good things in INC to state, nuff good things in CPM to state, nuff good things in PMK to state (the Padmasaaliyar Sangam was right outside our house, so I could see what they do and do not), and so on.

----
Btw, you still have nt done an exercise in laundry listing the good/bad deeds of PMs. It is important everyone do it, cos whether this act registers in one's statistical filters or not, it will open one's eyes to a critical process of ranking --- a very immature/imprecise field as far as I know, but on which so many personal as well as collective decisions are based on. As an amateur rankist (pardon the manufactured word), I am curious to see thought processes that build subconscious proclivities in the ranking process. So do indulge me and dont treat it as a rhetorical fun-fest. It is not.

 
At 3:36 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Pax,

Let me lay out my main concern here.

India today is a very large mass of young and angry Hindu men who want to see change happen very fast. This is a phenomena we have seen in many other parts of India and the world.

Unfortunately whenever you get such a critical mass of people demanding rapid change, you typically get a section of the political class manipulating that demand for personal gains.

The result is always a very nasty mess, a holocaust where the weak and poor are trampled to make way for the "rights" of these highly vocal segments.

Whether one talks of the Nazi phenomena in Post Versailles Germany, or the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, or the Cultural Revolution or Great Leap Forward in China, or that horrific mess in Rwanda... it all has its roots in the same thing... a critical mass of young men demanding change.

In the process of getting what they want - these young men slaughter children, women and old people.

That is where India is heading.

The Modi political machine has made all these promises of economic progress. None of those can be achieved without significant infrastructure development. Infra takes time.. there is no way to speed it up. If the Modi regime is not speedy enough in the perception of its votaries, then it will need something to make up the difference.

This is just pragmatic politics and everyone does that from time to time.

But... that "something" .... unfortunately is this Hindutva-vadi stuff. If that genie gets out of the bottle - India is completely and totally fucked. Not just Modiji NOT even Sri. Venkateswara Himself will be able to fix it at that point.

 
At 3:54 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Hello Pax,

In the election, the communal temperature issue was not a factor at all. The demand for change from the young Hindu men was so strong, that everyone was caught up in it.

If all the non-Modi fans could not subvert the popular opinion, how on earth can a simple blogger hope to do this?

I have consistently felt that Sri. Gadkari, Smt. Swaraj and Sri. Naqvi would have made a fine team to lead the BJP. These are good hardworking people cut from the same cloth that ABV was. They would have done a much better job of managing India than Sri Modi or Amit Shah. I have never hated the BJP - it is the only party I have ever voted for until Modiji stood for election.

I use a very simple criteria when I evaluate a PM of India. How often did they do something that put the entire constitutional framework of India and the unwritten contract between the people of India and the executive branch in peril?

That is why I think Sri. Morarji Desai is a good PM. He was very steady on sticking to Gandhian principles as PM. The same is true for Panditji and LBS.

By contrast Indiraji's tenures were marked by wild oscillations, she would routinely undermine the constitution in word and spirit and then go overboard trying to restore the damage she had done.

RG was very inexperience, he nearly fell into things that would completely wipe out the constitution but then somehow his inner moral compass took over and led him to safer ground. It is very tragic he is not here with us.

PVNR was very flat and solid, he took a few chances, but luckily for him, they all paid off.

HHDG and IKG were both quite flat and steady. They never took real chances, and played it safe. Somehow luck got them through it.

MMS was a dead flat. But he knew what he was doing and didn't see the need to be bothered with other nonsense.

 
At 3:56 PM, Blogger maverick said...

ABV was a very solid person constitutionally speaking. I can't think anyone who managed it with so much elan.

 
At 12:43 AM, Blogger powerslave said...

I am just loving it , while only time will tell how good Modi is one thing is clear he definitely is a polarising agent all the closet jhola hang which used to hide behind politically correct rhetoric and indulge in sophistry by pretending to hold a balanced and so called fcking nuanced view of the world is suddenly behaving like those who claim Islam khatrey mein hai (since we are secular fashionanle term is Secularism khatrey mein hai ) , Modi is not good , ask them why ? No response , arrey bhai why exactly is he bad ? Because he was in power during Godhara ? Well MKG presided over 1947 riots, Rajiv Gandhi over the 1984 and later exodus of KPs in Kashmir and yet no one blames them for those but Modi is the bad man of Godhara .

 
At 8:30 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

>> India today is a very large mass of young and angry Hindu men who want to see change happen very fast. This is a phenomena we have seen in many other parts of India and the world. Unfortunately whenever you get such a critical mass of people demanding rapid change, you typically get a section of the political class manipulating that demand for personal gains.

There is a real flaw in this hypothesis. People are impatient, period. It is not a localized problem in India or something to do with poverty, this is human nature. Rapid changes are impossible to sustain. I am not even sure if that is the aspiration of the BJP and BJP-lites. A change in course in terms of the misgovernance was what made them acceptable to the electorate at that time. In communist parlance, a regular course-correction aka pendulum swing.

Another flaw in your argument is that you need people aspiring change for the agenda to be subverted by village rustic idiots. If you look at the ah-so-great gleatest democrazy around, you see how Obamacare is used as a tin-foil to piss on Obama, democrats and what not. All you need is people. As long as you have gullible people who are intellectually shitty, you will have people hijacking agendas. Simplistically speaking, that means you will have agenda-hijacking till the end of humanity. Get over it.

 
At 8:41 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

Good, now you have started a ball-game that two can play on PM capabilities. But let me take your simplistic list and expand it out. Of course, a simplistic he/she is the best is bs. You need brownie points for diff dimensions. Here is my list (better ones listed out with some ordering). In some sense, I am not bothering with DG, IKG, Chandrasekhar, Charan Singh and GLN.

Institution-building: JLN
Transition credentials: JLN >> LBS >> PVNR, ABV >> IG \approx RG (me aur meine familie ist the only option)
Policy dogma stalling: JLN \approx MD
Pakistan: IG > PVNR, RG > ABV > JLN >> MD
China: IG >> ABV, PVNR, RG >> JLN >> MD
Nuclear: IG \approx ABV > PVNR > JLN > rest

Overall (whatever that means): JLN > PVNR \approx ABV > RG \approx VPS > MMS \approx MD > IG

Now where does Modi fit in. As of now, he has spent a ton of energy on foreign policy than internal affairs. I guess he probably realizes that you need investment to bring the change in infra development that can meet the needs of the Gen X/Y. Is there an internal affairs vacuum in India? Mostly its par for the course. We have nt seen any deep violence or mayhem or disruptions. Throwing a hissy-fit at a buncha house-churches being beaten up is like pointing a TNW at a mouse, IOW grow up please. I dont deny you your rights to act like a wuenderkindern von eine kindergarten without any gross consideration of the global scheme of things, but allow me the liberty to rotfl at your libertarian values that get selectively pricked when it matters.

 
At 8:41 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Basically, Modi is hyping India as a Hindu nation. That's OK with me but I think the khaki shorts and the weird salutes is carrying it a bit too far. That crap makes people worry who don't want religion as a basis of nationhood like da Muslims want to. The Vedic masters seem to like the Muslims game plan and strategy.

 
At 8:52 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

Here are more details. Lets play this game cos I think we should. I would like this to get even better.

1) Jawahar Lal Nehru
Internal Affairs:
+ Smooth transfer of power
+ Reasonable measure of democracy in practice
+ Five-year plans
+ Institution building (IITs, CSIR)
+ Reasonable autonomy for Integration of the Princely States
+ Liberation of Hyderabad and Goa, but not without policy dogmas getting in the way of realpolitik
+ (Reluctant yet foresightful) Linguistic reorganization of states

Foreign-Policy Affairs:
+ Non-alignment in theory and soft-alignment with either bloc in practice (Aid from the US, continuation in the Commonwealth, Soviet invasion of Hungary)
- Inadequate response to take-over of Tibet and bungling the war with China
- Cease-fire in Jammu and Kashmir in search for an elusive peace with Pakistan

Economic Affairs:
== Corruption (LIC Mundra), self-judgment in appointment of officers to the ICS cadre with little institutional oversight

Overall:
+ Democrat in heart and institution-builder
- Too much socialist/communist/non-interventionist dogma in terms of policy initiatives
- Policy dogma paralyzing initiatives when realpolitik thrived everywhere else (Sukarno, Chou-en-Lai, Mao-tse-Tung, Gamal, Tito, Eisenhower)

2) Indira Gandhi
Internal Affairs:
+ Green Revolution
- Fostering terrorism and contributing to mayhem (Punjab, Sri Lanka, Northeast)
- Anti-democrat in practice (Emergency, MISA, irregularities in 1971 elections, lack of internal democracy in Congress)
- Firmly put family/dynasty politics in saddle

Foreign-Policy Affairs:
+ Pokharan PNE
+ War with Pakistan and liberation of Bangladesh
- Ceded territories/victories in battle (Katchhatheevu, Shimla agreement, Tin Bigha corridor)

Economic Affairs:
- Throttled the economy (too much corruption, license/quota/permit Raj)
== Nationalized banks

Overall:
== Bipolar in terms of policy initiatives
- Anti-democrat to the core

3) Morarji Desai:
Internal Affairs:
+ Repeal of MISA
+ Showed that a non-UP-ite/non-Congress govt can come to the fore
== Formation of PUCL and other human rights related initiatives, which slowly started getting subverted from an anti-establishmentist bilge to an anti-nationalist prism

Foreign-Policy Affairs:
- Withdrew pre-emptive intel apparatus in the neighborhood

Economic Affairs:
== Socialist-utopia driven agenda, as meh as Indira
== Hunting with hares and running with hounds (Jan Sangh, Janata Parivar, Communist bloc, socialist bloc, anti-establishmentist)

Overall:
Too dogmatic and lacking realpolitik

4) Rajiv Gandhi:
Internal Affairs:
+ Peace accords in Assam
- Major role in anti-Sikh riots
+ Reforms in telecom sector
- Further family/dynasty politics
- Tepid response to Jammu and Kashmir sliding towards anarchy due to fondness for the Abdullah family

Foreign-Policy Affairs:
+ Indo-SL accord

Economic Affairs:
- Corruption (Bofors)

Overall:
Fair share of positives and negatives

 
At 8:57 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 8:59 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

5) V. P. Singh
Internal Affairs:
+ Implementing Mandal commission recommendations
+ Overseeing peace and elections in Punjab
- Rubaiya Sayeed release

6) P. V. Narasimha Rao
Internal Affairs:
+ Return to normalcy in Punjab
- Ayodhya agitation and Bombay blasts
+ TADA

Foreign-Policy Affairs:
+ Look-East policy

Economic Affairs:
+ Ending license raj
- Scandals (JMM bribe, Harshad Mehta, Chandrasami)

Overall: Non-family guy could hold on to the reins of INC by the sam-dhaan-dand-bhed routine, but history eventually catches up with disrespect, dissing and eventual demolition jobs.

7) Atal Behari Vajpayee:
Internal Affairs:
+ Instituting POTA
+ Parleys with terrorist outfits (Nagaland), but allowing too much leeway to external forces based in US and Netherlands

Foreign-Policy Affairs:
+ Pokharan
- Bungling of IC-814
- Kargil intel failures and stopping at the IB sanctifying status quo even when reality is altered
- Lahore and Agra diplomacy
- Parliament attack and Op. Parakram

Economic Affairs:
+ Further liberalization of the economy
- Scandals (Coffin-gate)

Overall: Too much of a romanticist in policy initiatives

8) Manmohan Singh
Internal Affairs:
+ RTI/RTE Acts
== MNREGA in theory (+), MNREGA in practice (-)

Foreign-Policy Affairs:
+ Civil nuclear agreement
- Inaugurating loss of focus on the neighborhood
- Tepid response to 26/11

Economic Affairs:
- Scandals (Commonwealth games, 2G, coalgate)

Overall:
Too scandalous to fail, too accidental to last in permanence and less aggressive foreign policy in the neighborhood

 
At 9:05 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

Too many mistakes, Running with hares and hunting with hounds.

Forgot to add remote-control rule for MMS, but that should be added to ABV too as the soft remote-control lay in the hands of the RSS machinery.

 
At 12:08 PM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

I forgot to add the beauty of Shah Bano to RG's list.

I think you are 2 or 3 years ahead in cussing at Modi (if it comes to that). Ask for a non-causal whine profile and we have an exhibit in you, Mav. So much for a physicist profile :).

If there is one point at which I will get pissed at this current NDA rule, thats the cock-up in the MHRD in slow-mo. I have no love lost for Smriti and her un-credentials. Nor for Mehrbano Madhu. But MHRD has always been a mad-house den with dogs, donkeys and dung beetles running the show. So this all seems like same shit, new day to me.

So do amuse me on this Nazi drama. Looking fwd to vvv chiming too.

As for the buddy from TX, here is 2 Peter 3:10,
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare."
The khakhi shorts and weird salutes may actually be the sign of the Lord, Our father, Hallelujah!

 
At 9:45 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12-31

 
At 7:27 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Powerslave,

I think you are missing the point.

it is no longer a question of whether Modi is good/bad for India. That issues was relevant before the election. Now... we live in the age of consequences.

It is simply a question of how bad it will get.

FWIW - indicators are not good.

As it stands the PMO is under attack from Hindu Far-Right groups that are not completely aligned with Modiji's leadership. This attack is from within the auspices of the BJP itself, the public at large has little or no visibility of this crisis. Modiji's response so far has been to stick the furherprinzip in the face of his opponents - a no holds barred "you are with me/against me" approach. This has led to an influential RSS worker being fired from his job, and a religious leader being reminded of his need for loyalty.

This approach to extremists is fine. One does what one has to. There is however, a down side. Now everything rests on the furherprinzip. Once it is reinforced in such a public fashion, no one can dare to question what the leader does. No one can honestly point out mistakes, or check the leader's abuses of power. This is what already happened in Gujurat.

The situation in the MHA is common knowledge. Once the next set of reassignments and transfers are in, Amit Shah will hold the destiny of India in his hands. With a single telephone call he will be able to achieve everything he did in Gujurat as Home Minister and ten time more.

There is no way to prevent this now.

The die is cast.

 
At 7:36 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Pax,

> There is a real flaw in this hypothesis. People are impatient, period. .... A change in course in terms of the misgovernance was what made them acceptable to the electorate at that time. In communist parlance, a regular course-correction aka pendulum swing.

I think that pendulum has a very sharp and large blade attached to it.

>> Another flaw in your argument is that you need people aspiring change for the agenda to be subverted by village rustic idiots.... Simplistically speaking, that means you will have agenda-hijacking till the end of humanity. Get over it.

If it were just "agenda hijacking" etc.. then I wouldn't be talking about.

In my opinion, this is not something like the usual business.

We are staring at two extremely distinct outcomes, one in which a few hundred thousand people butchered and one in which millions are killed.

If you can't see the through the fog, I understand, but I am convinced that something very nasty is making its way towards India.

 
At 7:38 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Pax,

I have no problems with your way of grading the PMs.

I don't think that ABV was under remote control from the RSS or anyone else. The late Mishraji and the other Mishraji who no one talks about... saw to that.

It is a pity both these men are no longer with us. I really liked them both and I would have felt much safer if either was alive.

 
At 7:49 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

>> We are staring at two extremely distinct outcomes, one in which a few hundred thousand people butchered and one in which millions are killed.

Boss, this is ridiculous beyond any normal standard. I am calling nonsense on this.

 
At 8:22 AM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

Buddy-ji, here is 2 Corinthians 11:13-15,

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."

 
At 2:20 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

new indicators are pointing to productivity increases under the previous administration. why this is coming out now I have no idea unless there is a lack of transparency in India's economic data. read it for yourself:
http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/Bfih16iHLNfaulVZPzlwVJ/Inflation-puzzle-in-new-GDP-data.html

 
At 12:40 AM, Blogger powerslave said...

Right wing ? Hindutva group ? Can anyone here show a single example where they have had a say in way things are run by the GOI ? Look at the history text books they are replete with lies about the mughal rule , nothing about Indian empires is even dealt with in comparable detail. WHy is talk of uniform civil code and revocation of hub subsidy seen as a right wing demand when it is only a demand for even playing field ? Why are re-conversions bad when conversions are ok ? How is that US being an unabashed christian state afford to give us a self proclaimed secular republic a sermon on religious freedom ?

 
At 3:47 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

There is no state religion in the US. Have you heard of the separation of church and state doctrine? We fucking created it first.

 
At 3:57 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

why are the Hindutvas so colonialized they can't even accept crticisim from other Indians without blabbing on about the US? Why not their fuck buddies the Russians? Compare yourselves to them. That's about your level, amigos.

 
At 6:26 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Powerslave,

Again... you are missing the point.

All those agendas you are talking - those may have been relevant to some voters when the elections were imminent.

Now none of that matters.

All that matters now is power and how it is consolidated.

I really doubt there is anything that can be done to stop this.

Just think a little bit about this -what will happen to Republic when Amit Shah gains the power to task an RR regiment to a place of his choosing?

That is going to happen soon. In the next month if my estimates are correct.

 
At 6:29 PM, Blogger maverick said...

It was all great and fine when the RR guarded the rimland. Those blasted kilos and their fucking insurgency.... surely they deserved what was coming... right? And those bloody dog-eating people - can't be trusted - serves them right for being such assholes... give them some more COIN... that'll sort them out.

But what happens when the next CASO is in your mohalla in the mainland?

 
At 9:09 PM, Blogger Nanana said...

Will Delhi results now make it worse Mav?

 
At 6:06 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Nanana,

The absence of a clear Modi wave effect in Delhi will affect the balance of power between the Moditva types and the Hindutva types. It will visibly weaken any claims to infallibility that the Modi supporters have been flashing in the face of the Hindutva-vadis. It will definitely feed the insecurity of the regime which hoped to seize the Rajya Sabha and it will likely bring the program to pacify the rimland into sharp focus.

Given how savvy the Modi machine is - I would not be too surprised if this drives a convergence between the Moditva and Hindutva types.

What the Delhi elections will do the undercurrent of hostility building up among large numbers of young Hindu men...? I can't predict.

Usually extremist sentiments only build up in a population for short periods of time. The general population only swings to extremes for short periods of time ... unless there are other driving factors such as persistent economic or social or political stress.

Also extremist sentiments can return to the general population with the same ease as the manner in which the depart. This is why German domestic intelligence keeps a very close eye on Skinheads and Neo-Nazi groups as these are usually the precursors of something much nastier.

 
At 6:16 AM, Blogger maverick said...

sorry from the CNN article.

>> "A cosmopolitan city like New Delhi has rejected divisive rhetoric," said Arati Jerath, a political commentator in the nation's capital. "It's a strong message to the BJP."

Err... I don't think so. Monitor the situation in JJ Colony and see how it evolves. That will tell us more about the underlying dynamics than something as fleeting as an electoral victory.

>> Prannoy Roy, a trained psephologist -- the scientific study of elections -- and the lead anchor of New Delhi Television, called it a revolution. "I've never seen anything like this in Indian electoral history," he said. "This could be a turning point in Indian politics."

With all due respect to Prannoy - this is fantastic nonsense!

 
At 6:18 AM, Blogger maverick said...

who the fuck are these people kidding?

Kejriwal has no admin skills whatsoever. This Delhi government will disintegrate in 6M time frame.

 
At 7:51 AM, Blogger maverick said...

here is the modivadi perspective

http://www.ndtv.com/opinion/2-major-take-aways-for-bjp-from-delhi-738538

 
At 7:54 AM, Blogger maverick said...

from the above article

"In Delhi, the BJP ended up angering too many social constituencies and ended up with just its core vote. Unfortunately for it, the core vote cannot win elections."

The blame game has begun.

Who is this core vote? is it the Hindutva-vadis? or are this the die hard Modi-uber-allez types?

 
At 7:59 AM, Blogger maverick said...

This revised deflator calculation from the CSO is going to cause more confusion than anticipated.

There is always a disconnect between the ground reality and any averaged statistical quantities. It is not uncommon for various sub-component trends to be anti-correlated with the trends in the average.

The confusion this creates in the analyst community will not be a good thing for the economy.

All these deflators are simply a reference for discussions, changing them without good reason is likely to cause major disconnects in the discussions on economic trends.

 
At 11:37 AM, Blogger maverick said...

And the view from the Hindutva end

http://qz.com/342127/three-colossal-mistakes-that-cost-the-bjp-the-delhi-elections/

"“It was a much-needed slap (for Modi and Shah),” said one long-time RSS Member".

"The second strategic mistake was bypassing the local party set-up. Each of the 70 constituencies was managed by members of parliament and ministers who were unfamiliar with the territory. Even many RSS volunteers, the backbone of BJP’s door-to-door campaign, were outsiders. Besides, many RSS functionaries and volunteers who considered Modi as their hero are now turned off by his self-promotion. Some even believe that the prime minister and Shah are beholden to corporate interests. "

"The RSS may see the loss as leverage against the BJP"

 
At 9:10 PM, Blogger Nanana said...

G.Secs from the institutes do occasionally perform well.

 
At 3:09 PM, Blogger Brown Eagle said...

Next time in Delhi, please try to attend one on AAP strategy session and they are stupid enough to announce them publicly and invite all.

I think, as defectors need to be 22 so unless dismissed by Centre at some point, AAP govt will last its term. Kejriwal's hand's are not tied by numbers or LG this time around. People might have trouble processing it but clear public mandate should not be questioned. It is undemocratic.

The last mile of officialdom that deals directly with the public is really pathetic in India. Recently, for birth/death certificates there was an official notice that only 2 copies will be given due to short supply of paper! In the past, I had a harrowing time when I had to get my driver's lic., but I got it on my own. I can relate to this video and was very happy watching it.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=519206788179086&set=vb.290805814352519&type=2&theater

 
At 5:22 AM, Blogger maverick said...

I have no doubt that the AAP has won the election in as clear a way as the Modi team won the election last year.

That being said - all this talk of AAP and other small parties taking the country by storm is absurd.

I will be very surprised if this Kejriwal regime makes it past the 6 month mark.

 
At 5:40 AM, Blogger maverick said...

it is very important to remember that no emperor has ruled India if the kotwal of Delhi was not in their pocket first.

Today the outermost ring of all VIP security in the NCT is still in the hands of the Delhi Police.

This includes static security teams on the perimeter, all node surveillance in New Delhi, and any route clearing operations.

There is no way this much power will remain in the hands of a political formation that is hostile to the Modi regime.

 
At 7:21 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

A cop in Madison Alabama slammed a 57 year old man from India onto the ground giving him a severe spinal injury. Inexcusable. Just watching the dash cam recording makes your blood boil. I hope the cop gets what's coming to him.

But let me tell you what I will *not* do if I ever get a chance to visit India.

1. Not carry some sort of picture ID where ever I go.

2. Not carry the name and address of a contact person written down if I am traveling about India in an unaccompanied tour group.

3. If a cop approaches me talking loudly in a language I cannot understand, not smile, not act friendly, and in any way not appear utmost cooperative.

4. Repeatedly try to walk away from the cop as he is talking loudly and pointedly at me.

I promise I will *not* do these things if I ever get a chance to visit India.

 
At 7:28 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

BTW, I used to live in Madison Al., when I was a teenager. It is very close to the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center and the US Army Redstone Arsenal. A very nice, quiet town where there has always been foreigners with advanced science and engineering degrees living there. The cop definitely majorly fucked up. He should have known better.

 
At 12:06 PM, Blogger Pax-Indica said...

Can the racist dipshit shut his ahole, for once? May be that is asking for too much.

 
At 1:21 PM, Blogger Brown Eagle said...

Professor

I do not speak for AAP, but I do not know if they are planning to take the country by storm.

--------------------
It can work the same way as when VVIPs travel to other cities, it should not be a big deal. Is the entire DP required to not be under the local govt for that 1 purpose? I would think, DAP is used for those purposes. One only needs DP to control the traffic. Who knows, maybe DAP can create some Traffic units which work in conjunction with DP (Traffic) during movements.

 
At 6:51 PM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Brown Eagle,

I don't know what AAP leadership wants to do. If one talks to their cadre, they say all kinds of things. It is difficult to draw conclusions.

My comment was about Prannoy Roy's statement, I think someone with his level of experience should be more careful with his choice of words.

Yes, the bulk of the responsibility is shouldered by the DAP. As things stand some 50% of the DP is assigned to VIP security. It may seem like mundane and relatively unimportant tasks but I feel their contribution cannot be ignored.

I understand there is a lot of enthusiasm for the AAP especially among my former classmates, but I do not feel this will translate into the desired outcome. I feel like I am looking at the modern Indian version of the KPD, full of earth shattering ideas and short on real muscle to make anything happen.

 
At 7:42 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 7:44 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Hopefully somebody will send the bible pounding Hindutva to Fukushima Japan to build a temple to Modi.

 
At 6:20 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Aaba Patil is no more.

This is actually huge loss for those that care about what really matters.

He held the city together in some of its most difficult times. At a time when other senior officials were panicking, Aaba stayed extraordinarily calm.

The man worked hard in one of the most thankless jobs in the world.

His passing is a real loss to the state.

 
At 6:42 AM, Blogger maverick said...

It appears from the Delhi elections that the vote swing can be influenced by purely economic considerations and at least in Delhi, the vote swing can put significant pressure on the BJP's vote-banks - i.e. ultra-right Hindus and Modivadis.

This is going to affect the ultra-right wing's perception of the electoral process as an avenue to power.

The manner in which this swing has exposed their flanks to attack will emphasize the evanescent nature of their victory. The Hindutva-vadis will rachet up pressure on the Modi-Shah combine to push their agendas through.

 
At 9:12 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Still problems at Fukushima.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/fukushima-fallout-radioactive-water-remains-threat-iaea-says-n307361

 
At 4:08 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

This is dedicated to the pro-Russian propaganda Hindutva faction currently running amok on BARF.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/ex-porn-star-sasha-grey-dragged-russia-ukraine-propaganda-war-n308741

 
At 3:10 AM, Blogger Nanana said...

"Strong governments may not, however, move in the right direction. Hitler provided Germany with extremely effective administration – the trains ran on time, as did the trains during our own Emergency in 1975-77. His was a strong government, but Hitler took Germany efficiently and determinedly on a path to ruin, overriding the rule of law and dispensing with elections. It is not sufficient that the trains run on time, they have to go in the right direction at the desired time. The physical rail network guiding the trains could be thought of as analogous to rule of law, while the process by which consensus is built around the train schedule could be thought of as democratic accountability.


But why do we need both rule of law and democratic accountability to keep strong government on the right path? Would democratic accountability not be enough to constrain a dictatorial government? Perhaps not! Hitler was elected to power, and until Germany started suffering shortages and reversals in World War II, enjoyed the support of the majority of the people. The rule of law is needed to prevent the tyranny of the majority that can arise in a democracy, as well as to ensure that basic “rules of the game” are preserved over time so that the environment is predictable, no matter which government comes to power. By ensuring that all citizens have inalienable rights and protections, the rule of law constrains the majority’s behaviour towards the minorities. And by maintaining a predictable economic environment against populist democratic instincts, the rule of law ensures that businesses can invest securely today for the future."

RaghuramRajan

 
At 7:12 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

^^^^^^^

The Hindutvas don't like this guy and want him out.

 
At 2:10 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

The Hindutvas are now calling RR a "Sepoy".

"Grinning like a mule eating grass through a barb wire fence".

 
At 8:02 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dr. Rajan is using the analogy that fits the situation best.

India is standing on the edge of an abyss. I really don't know which way it is going to swing, I fear the worst will come to pass.

 
At 4:12 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

A lot of the Hindutvas are using proto-Soviet speak. Things like "useful idiots", "Sepoy", "traitor" etc. reveals their true mind. RR made the mistake of being invited to a conference and speaking his mind. The hate waves coming toward him are enormous. Never mind if he is a good steward or not. Makes no difference. But really, a good central bank steward should probably only speak in baffling conundrums.

 
At 7:18 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

new fukushima leak unreported for months.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/radioactive-fukushima-water-leak-was-unreported-months-official-n312396

 
At 3:01 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Tennessee Valley Authority is making structural upgrades to its nuke power plants called "Fukushima upgrades" to withstand earthquakes, cyclones and tornadoes.

I guess they are taking a hard lesson learned approach.

They are also getting rid of a coal fired generator and going to a natural gas generating plant. Coal = bad, natural gas = good.

 
At 2:44 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Solar plane is headed to India from Oman. that is a very far distance averaging only 70 to 80 mph. Man, how will they take a toilet break during the flight?

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/solar-impulse-plane-takes-round-world-flight-n319711

 
At 6:07 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Now the honeymoon ends

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/modi-govt-making-muslims-insecure-all-india-muslim-personal-law-board/

 
At 2:19 PM, Blogger maverick said...


The search for the missing memory card is turning into a needle in a haystack affair.

The FDR is pretty useless right now and the CVR data is not very enlightening.

The inquiry is going to produce more questions than answers.

CFIT has limited explanations- pilots incapacitated by fire or hypoxia or autopilot gone awry or deliberate action by persons in the cockpit.

I am curious why the F-III scrambled to site didn't see any signs of a crash. There should have been smoke from burning fuel and combustible matter if he arrived with 10 min of the event.

I worry we have another MH370 on our hands.

 
At 5:36 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Some translations

"no evidence that the crash was related to terrorism"

There is no evidence of an explosion and Andreas Lubitz has no known extremist links. There was no spike in the "chatter" about possible attacks.

"communications prior to the event were very smooth and cool"

A voice stress analysis of the CVR recordings does not point to the usual signs of a stress. As those stress markers are subjective in nature - the assessment is not something one can be very certain about.

"French Prosecutor Brice Robin said Thursday. Co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, a 28-year-old German national, was silent throughout the plane’s descent and was alive at the point of impact"

There is no understanding of Andreas Lubitz's actions in the cockpit. Until there is more clarity on that issue, one proceeds under the assumption that this was a deliberate act on his part. We are now in the middle of a massive criminal investigation, focused on Andreas Lubitz and other as yet unnamed conspirators.

 
At 5:58 AM, Blogger maverick said...


Tragically a criminal investigation is the only way to get the resources needed at this point to achieve some clarity in the investigation.

The FDR is empty, so one has no idea what Andreas Lubitz was doing in the cockpit. If a criminal inquiry clears him of suspicion, then the cause of the crash can be localized to a more specific malfunction in some aircraft sub-system.

This phase of the present investigation is comparable to the phase where the flight crew of MH370 were investigated for wrongdoing. This was when the captain's flight simulator at home was examined extensively for any clues that may aid in the investigation.

Given the international nature of the crime, the BKA should lead the investigation, but is unclear right now which sub-unit of the BKA will emerge as the nodal body in the investigation. It is likely given this situation, a local police investigation unit might emerge as the leader in this process.

 
At 6:00 AM, Blogger maverick said...

It should be BKA(SO) but maybe BKA(IK) will want in and then there will be a joint team set up and after all the paper is shuffled, some flatfoot in Montabaur ends up doing all the really important work.

 
At 6:16 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Okay - we are in the hype phase of the disaster.

Andreas' life is going to end up under a very public microscope, every thing he did/didn't do is going to end up being interpreted, analyzed etc...

If the solid state drive of the FDR can be located, there is some hope of a quick resolution, otherwise we are looking at filling up to our ears in nonsense.


 
At 6:24 AM, Blogger maverick said...

http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat?p=64616

"09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa"

That is the raw data sent out on the transponder.

Now how does that line up with the time table in the CVR.

 
At 6:40 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Aaah ...

The germans and the french have decided to go their separate ways on this.

The BKO and DCPJ investigations are likely to be a total shit show now...

 
At 4:35 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

I would look at the co-pilot's recent religious affiliations.

Also, in the US, regulations say there can't be just one person in the cockpit. An airlines attendant or another pilot has to be in the cockpit as well so the other person can't be locked out of the cockpit. Germany and Canada changed their rules to this format last night according to the news. I guess better late than never.

Where ya been lately?

 
At 5:05 AM, Blogger maverick said...

I didn't anticipate a split between the French and the Germans so soon. It appears Procureur Robin spoke to the press before he informed Lufthansa senior management.

I really worry that BKA units tasked with the investigation will now come to a completely different conclusion from any DCPJ investigations.

It may be best if this case is now taken over by a examining judge and monsieur Robin is asked to kindly keep quiet for the time being.

If the BKA inquiry finds evidence contrary to the claim of homicidal intent in Andreas Lubitz, then the French judicial system will have egg on its face.

 
At 5:11 AM, Blogger maverick said...

This story about a pilot who flew the plane into the ground is going to play out in the media for the next few days, initially a lot of people will be drawn to it, but after a few days to digest it - the doubts about its viability will out weigh the initial excitement.

 
At 10:32 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

Mav:

I really don't think this crash is going to play that way. I think they got the facts about the co-pilot.

In other news, the war is boring website has some bad assertions about India's SU-30 MKI plane. You might want to check it out.

 
At 3:47 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Ralphy,

The media is certainly having a field day. I mean a pos like Bild is getting references in every major news service. I never thought I would live to see that day.

The evidence of mental health issues is at best circumstantial. Just because he was crazy doesn't mean he crashed the plane on purpose.

My main problem is that we do not have a detailed time-stamp on the CVR data. There is a disconnect in the story. We know from the ADS-B data that the autopilot was reset to 96ft. From the CVR we know that Andreas took full control of the plane at some point after Patrick Sondheimer left the cockpit.

ATC picked up an unscheduled descent at 0929Z, but the ADS-B data only shows changes made to the autopilot at 0930Z. We don't know how good the relative time stamps on the CVR are.

As a result what is unclear is if the autopilot reset because Andreas deliberately changed it, or whether it changed without his intervention and then whatever he did was in response to the unanticipated change?

The same applies to the sound of the deny-entry switch (which only appears in some versions of the media coverage of the CVR footage), did it switch because Andreas toggled it, or did Andreas toggle it because he was trying to let the captain in but the switch was unresponsive?

All this stuff about not responding to the captain banging on the door, etc... that could be because he was trying to keep the captain out or it could be because as his training dictated, he was flying the airplane and trying to keep everyone alive.

I would feel a lot better if the FDR data disk was recovered and its contents carefully scrutinized. Perhaps from there some way can be found to match the time stamp on the CVR to the time stamps on the FDR.

Thanks for the Su-30MKI tip, I will look it up.

 
At 3:53 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Ralphy,

Engine problems and Russian fighter planes are synonymous.

 
At 3:55 AM, Blogger maverick said...

You know... it is either the F-35 or the Minuteman III.

I don't think people are going to be okay with doing both.

 
At 4:49 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Ah yes ... let's examine the cycle closely..

1) Unexplained crash - no problem - have ambitious procurer who will mouth off to media before all the facts are in.

2) Pilot-did-it-theory - no worries media can violate a person's privacy with no consequence...

3) Dig-dig-dig... umm yes... after all that digging the only thing that turns up is that he was treated for depression before he got a pilots licence six years ago... uh oh.. but wait a former girlfriend claims that he once had a nightmare about crashing the airplane...


4) People are scratching their chins... what sorts of people are these who do not believe a credible source like the Bild... don't they know the Bild is quoted on CNN?.. wait a minute.. Bild can't be wrong, Andreas was a closeted gay man... there you go chinscratchers ... how is that for evidence.

Seriously - this is exactly the same nonsense we saw with Zaharie Shah - after screening all the passengers - Malaysian Police and the media tried to blame Zaharie because he was related to the gay former Malaysian PM.

The irrelevance of the media commentary on this issue is reaching its crescendo. I am surprised that no one in Bild has sought to say that Andreas Lubitz was related to some other completely insignificant person who you might not even give a rat's arse about.

As usual no one noticed any thing about the discrepancy in the time stamps of the ATC and ADS-B data?

 
At 8:11 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

I note that another blogger has been hacked to death in Bangladesh. Happily, I have no plans to visit Bangladesh. Ever.

I did have an aquintance from Bangladesh at work and I'm pretty sure he was a muslim. he was a fairly reasonable guy.

 
At 7:26 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

India has a plan to increase solar electricity to 100 giga watts by 2022. Many times greater than US capacity. Wow!

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/31/opinions/richardson-climate-change/index.html

 
At 8:22 AM, Blogger Nanana said...

Are you fearing a CT mav?

 
At 11:02 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Dear Nanana,

There have been three incidents in the recent past where an airliner has mysteriously crashed. In all cases, theories involving suicidal pilots have emerged.

These theories share the following characteristics:

1) Neither can be substantiated beyond reasonable doubt by available evidence.

2) There is no data to support the ideological core of such theories - i.e. that suicidal thoughts are linked to criminal insanity.

3) Alternative explanations are discarded in the public domain as "Conspiracy Theories" or "implausible".

This situation bothers me. It could be we are seeing black swan events - low probability events that are occurring due to the increased number of flights or we are seeing a hitherto undetected form of criminal activity.

After 9/11 global aviation security norms became much more consistent. New technologies became available which made hijacking practically impossible. Is it likely that criminals have found a way around the present regime of controls? This kind of question needs to be answered.

In the case of the Germanwings, we have a very strange situation - the entire investigation is be carried out under a level of very intense media scrutiny.

This level of scrutiny has clearly unhinged public officials who are making irresponsible statements to the press. There is no reason to disclose materials contained in Andreas Lubitz's medical records to the press. That is information that should remain with the police. What is that doing in the press?

From the recent barrage of media reports, it appears that crash site though remote has been compromised and evidence is ending up in private hands rather than police hands.

This is an absurd kind situation where I feel a proper police investigation is likely to face severe impediments as the people are more likely to want to do things that cut footage than solve the crime!

It appears the FDR data disk has been recovered, now we need to wait and see if the data on it can be examined and some reasonable conclusions drawn.

Ultimately if there is a criminal investigation, it should lead to charges being filed against the perpetrator and any collaborators.

 
At 5:03 AM, Blogger maverick said...

Okay clearly even Bild has run it's bullshit machine dry... spiked coffee ... what utter crap.

There appears to be a problem matching time stamps between the Flight Data Recorder and the Cockpit Voice Recorder.

One of the most enduring puzzles to come out of the FDR data is the repeated changes to the descent speed.

I can't understand why anyone wanting to crash the plane from the cockpit would bother repeatedly resetting the autopilot instead of just shutting the autopilot off and pushing down on the stick until he was in a complete dive dropping at 8000 feet/min?

Why bother with all this autopilot tweaking stuff at all?

Just shut it off and crash it manually.

 
At 3:12 AM, Blogger Ralphy said...

India trying to break trading impasse with Canada. I wonder if the Canadians know the Hindutvas and Moditvas got a little bit of a laugh when terrorists attacked Canada and killed a few people?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/india-rushes-break-impasse-canada-investment-pact-source-125227881--business.html

 
At 4:47 AM, Blogger maverick said...

http://www.financialexpress.com/article/economy/no-dark-summer-record-coal-india-output-ramps-up-coal-stocks-at-power-plants/63141/

They ramped up production and imported a lot of coal from international sources. The coal stock at most plants is in excess of 7 days now.

Last mile problems persist and large quantities of coal still lie at ports waiting for Indian Railways to arrange delivery.

Sustainability questions abound but for now the summer should see few supply side problems.

Now one can focus on the other thing ailing the grid... distribution side inefficiency.

 
At 2:33 AM, Blogger Almost Clever said...

CPEC eh? And happening at the same time as the AIIB and the massive investment in Kazakhstan. The PRC is finally actually starting to reshape the world - and given its focus on geoeconomics and Chinese internal security, its potentially a positive thing. Chinese investment, aid and trade in Pakistan is set to dwarf American and GCC amounts. Given that this is driven by Chinese fears of Pakistan turning into Afghanistan and infecting their Muslim provinces its a good thing. Unlike American aid which is not business driven (if anything post 9/11 US aid can only be maintained by Pakistan reminding them of their ability to play spoiler), it creates Pakistani incentives to maintain geopolitical stability in the region. War between major states are bad for their trade corridors.

 
At 5:37 AM, Blogger Almost Clever said...

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-13-37085-China-tells-Pakistan-CPEC-success-depends-on-peaceful-Pak-Afghan-ties

 
At 4:24 PM, Blogger Ralphy said...

The Chinese aren't going to get into any left wing ideological tree hugging morality games that's for sure. The World Bank has to cop to the politically correct Euro and North American concerns about native displacement, clean water, clean air, save the animals and love your transgender brothers and sisters. Chinese could care less. so whutever Packeeland wants to do within Chinese sensibilities, it could get funded. OK with me. As long as Pakeeland quits begging the US for more gear.

 
At 5:02 AM, Blogger Pragna Jaiswal said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 5:14 AM, Blogger Pragna Jaiswal said...

Thanks for sharing valuble information it is very useful for me and also who wants more information
Vedic science

 

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home